Liverpool Disruption 28 Feb 2017 - RAIB report released 30/11/17

Red Dragon · 2 Mar 2017

SemaphoreSam said:
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/RAIB_Earthworks2008.pdf

The wall which collapsed might never have been intended to act as a retaining wall.

RailUK Forums

Shaw S Hunter · 2 Mar 2017

Red Dragon said:
I've read the thread, looked closely at the various pics., and based on my experience I would suggest the investigations will centre on where the original ground levels were behind the wall, and where the levels were immediately before the collapse.

If you look at the photographs it looks very much like "made ground", in other words fill material may have been put against the stone wall to build up the ground level, a concrete slab put on top of the filled ground and then surcharged (loaded) with containers. This would have created a larger usable, level, storage area. It would also have put an unacceptable load onto the masonry wall potentially causing it to fail.

Look particularly at the photographs which show: -
1. What's left at the top of the cutting - this shows bits of black plastic in what looks like fill material, suggesting the fill is relatively new. Victorians didn't use black polythene.

2. The debris on the track, stone wall, fill material, and a concrete slab, which I guess was put on the fill to make a level base for the containers.

I'm not sure where the surface water running off the new concrete paved area was going - into the fill ?
If it was this would put even more pressure on the old stone wall.
Has there been much rainfall in the Liverpool area recently?

Oh dear, on the face of it, this looks as if it may have been a disaster just waiting to happen. But let's await the outcome of the investigation.
Fortunately nobody was injured.

I must admit that I have had similar thoughts. It's a very plausible explanation. As opposed to the doom and gloom reactions that others have posted; just one example here:

Neil Williams said:
I think they will need to do a lot of testing and checking on the cutting now one bit of it has failed - who says there won't be more? It's all quite old now.

And the next point is also well worth considering.

Red Dragon said:
The wall which collapsed might never have been intended to act as a retaining wall.

TimboM · 2 Mar 2017

shakey1961 said:
I need to ask your considered advice. I have a mate going to London on Sunday 5 March on the 9am Virgin from Preston, and returning to Lime Street on Monday 6 at 10:20am.

She doesn't like disruption. Do you think I could/should change the ticket for a return to Preston?

Dunno what to do.

Thanks

There's a strong likelihood this won't be resolved by then - especially by Sunday morning. If your friend doesn't like disruption / uncertainty / hassle I would suggest taking the "safe" option now and switch to Preston. Given the circumstances I'm sure Virgin will be happy to facilitate the switch.

stuart100100 · 2 Mar 2017

jcollins said:
That rules out everything except 142s and 150s.

150 on the 6.59 Ormskirk to Preston this morning

Urban-Savage · 2 Mar 2017

Just boarded at Huyton bound for Newcastle via Manchester Victoria
Despite the chaos at Lime Street it actually seemed calm and organised at Huyton with trains every half hour - Wigan / Victoria using platform 2

Information displays suggest some services will be turning round at Edge Hill later as well

In the circs I'd say well done Northern

Red Dragon · 2 Mar 2017

Chris M said:
Looking at the photos it looks like a landslip that wasn't held by the retaining wall of the cutting. Wasn't there an RAIB report a few years ago about a (much smaller) retaining wall failing in a similar manner? Also I think there was one where changes in adjacent land use had not been understood leading to overloading of the railway's drainage systems and consequent embankment failure. Both I think led to recommendations to NWR to learn about and ensure their retaining walls and embankments were in a fit state.
It seems here that the adjacent land use seems to have come as a surprise to the railway, when surely that should never been the case?

I think you're right. Chris M but, as I mentioned earlier, the wall may never have been designed, or intended to act, as a retaining wall.

I've now read the RAIB report's conclusions and recommendations which you refer to.
They talk about "looking over the horizon of cuttings", in other words looking to see what's happening on the land adjacent to the top of a cutting. They also refer to water run-off.

These two factors, possible surcharge loading and water run-off from the adjacent property will, I'm sure, be at the top of the Inspector's list. They'll also have to look either side of the failure to assess whether the masonry wall is, or should be, acting as a retaining wall and check its stability.

In order to stabilise the situation, there could be a lot of material which has to be removed from the top of the cutting before the track and OHLE can be repaired and trains safely run into Lime Street again.

SpacePhoenix · 2 Mar 2017

If the track furthest can be cleared, does the track layout of Lime Street allow all platforms to access that track, to allow a diesel to move any trains that are trapped out of the station?

mikemcniven · 2 Mar 2017

Seems to be three rail replacement route running (Looking at the departure board on National Rail, always subject to change)

Liverpool Lime St. to Huyton 35 minute journey leaving at xx05 xx15 xx25 xx55 from Liverpool
Liverpool Lime St. to Stockport 1hrs 15 min journey leaving at xx25 from Liverpool
Liverpool Lime St. to Runcorn 45 minute journey time leaving at xx00 from Liverpool

Nice to see East Midlands Trains put on a shuttle from Liverpool to Stockport for passengers needing destinations further away then Manchester, I suspect they are doing Stockport as it is easier then getting into Manchester at the moment due to the level of roadworks around

mikemcniven · 2 Mar 2017

SpacePhoenix said:
If the track furthest can be cleared, does the track layout of Lime Street allow all platforms to access that track, to allow a diesel to move any trains that are trapped out of the station?

Looking on the Railcam diagram, yes the furthest line from the collapse can connect with ALL platforms at Liverpool

Peter Mugridge · 2 Mar 2017

mikemcniven said:
Looking on the Railcam diagram, yes the furthest line from the collapse can connect with ALL platforms at Liverpool

But would it not still be within range of debris from any further collapse, given that bits of rock went all over the place? There will be a lot of smaller pieces that aren't easily visible on the pictures that would have bounced a lot further than the big peices.

tony_mac · 2 Mar 2017

I've attached the google earth historical imagery for the site - it looks to have been developed' around 2004, and hasn't changed much since.
(And it was extremely wet at the time)

mikemcniven · 2 Mar 2017

tony_mac said:
I've attached the google earth historical imagery for the site - it looks to have been developed' around 2004, and hasn't changed much since.
(And it was extremely wet at the time)

Doesn't look like a friendly site in 2012 with what's written on top

LNW-GW Joint · 2 Mar 2017

Looks like 2 pairs of units are being used for Huyton-Wigan/Victoria shuttles.
Presumably (if 319s) they can't reach Edge Hill with the OHLE being out there.
They also don't appear to be able to reverse at Wavertree Tech Park with the current signalling, although the connections are there at Olive Mount Jn.

It's all a rather unwelcome rehearsal for the upcoming Lime St remodelling closures.

Red Dragon · 2 Mar 2017

SpacePhoenix said:
If the track furthest can be cleared, does the track layout of Lime Street allow all platforms to access that track, to allow a diesel to move any trains that are trapped out of the station?

The engineers will first have to assess the situation and then prepare a method statement which includes a risk assessment and safe methods of working.

I would suggest they'll stabilise the top, and only then will they put men to work on the pway and ohle down below.

It would be far quicker to hold the blockade on the line until all lines were ready to open rather than try to work in possessions, or with only one line open.

It's a very difficult job to access and opening one line would exacerbate the access problem and considerably slow the job.

We'll see what they say in a day or so.

mikemcniven · 2 Mar 2017

Network Rail update from Structural Engineer (Video) https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/837226958996004864

- Estimated 100 to 150 tonne of material on the track - At least a couple days to be removed
- Unrestrained Retaining wall (within the site) that needs to be removed/made safe
- about 10 inch deep concreate slab needs to be removed with ground soil underneath
- Containers have been removed

Mr Fizz · 2 Mar 2017

A section of the retaining wall behind P4 at Coventry collapsed a while back. They didn't need track access to repair that and it still took several months to do the work. Hope thats not going to be the case here

Arcadia77 · 2 Mar 2017

Red Dragon said:
I'm not sure where the surface water running off the new concrete paved area was going - into the fill ?
If it was this would put even more pressure on the old stone wall.
Has there been much rainfall in the Liverpool area recently?.

There was a lot of heavy rain fall in the afternoon just prior to this incident.

Verulamius · 2 Mar 2017

tony_mac said:
I've attached the google earth historical imagery for the site - it looks to have been developed' around 2004, and hasn't changed much since.
(And it was extremely wet at the time)

Comparing the 2012 and 2016 pictures it would appear that a bulge has arisen in the wall between those dates.

Bletchleyite · 2 Mar 2017

Verulamius said:
Comparing the 2012 and 2016 pictures it would appear that a bulge has arisen in the wall between those dates.

Wow, it does, doesn't it?

Does this call into question, once again, Network Rail's management of its property?

Red Dragon · 2 Mar 2017

tony_mac said:
I've attached the google earth historical imagery for the site - it looks to have been developed' around 2004, and hasn't changed much since.
(And it was extremely wet at the time)

These pics do indicate fill has been put behind the wall.
Looking at the early shots you can see a batter running down to the wall - so the original ground level was lower and the wall wasn't designed to be a retaining wall.
Thanks Tony it confirms my fears.

pemma · 2 Mar 2017

Mentioned on another site 5 x 319s are stuck where they are as a result of the collapse. Not sure if it's been posted on here or not.

Red Dragon · 2 Mar 2017

Arcadia77 said:
There was a lot of heavy rain fall in the afternoon just prior to this incident.

Thank you Arcadia - I thought there could have been.

It might have been the straw whigh broke the camel's back, as it would not only put hydraulic pressure on the wall, but also reduce the angle of friction (stability) of the made ground (fill).

Both of these factors would increase the pressure on the wall, which was not designed as a retaining wall.

It looks as if the NR engineers have identified the problem correctly, but are not talking about the fill which has been dumped by third parties at the back of the wall yet. They would be advised by their legal people not to do this at this stage.

To me, unfortunately, it's pretty clear already what's caused the problem, surcharge loading by filling against the wall combined with water pressure from the storm water run-off from the impermeable area adjacent to the wall.

sonorguy · 2 Mar 2017

mikemcniven said:
Was the main new headline on BBC North West Today, where they have started the cannot be sure if the third party containers were to blame. Also stated 40 tonnes of debris did come onto the track

From looking at those pictures I'm not wholly convinced by the containers explanation either, although obviously it could be correct. It's at least possible that it's cause by rainfall and the general maintenance of the retaining wall of the cutting, along with the backfilling, if that's what has happened.

sonorguy · 2 Mar 2017

TimboM said:
Interesting how very quickly NR were to lay the blame firmly and squarely on the third party before a full investigation has taken place - which may (or may not) identify other contributing factors, e.g. integrity/maintenance of the retaining wall (which I'm guessing is theirs), impact of the subterranean tunnels which are there, assessment of lineside risks following RAIB findings into previous incidents etc.

I'm not saying Network Rail are at all to blame - just find it intriguing how quickly and adamantly they've pointed the finger prior to the full facts being established.

Me too, I don't think it's a simple as has been suggested.

SpacePhoenix · 2 Mar 2017

jcollins said:
Mentioned on another site 5 x 319s are stuck where they are as a result of the collapse. Not sure if it's been posted on here or not.

Apart from them and a Pendolino mentioned earlier, any other trains trapped? Are all the trapped 319s Northen units?

Thomas6187 · 2 Mar 2017

I believe that there is 2 EMT 158 trapped too

SpacePhoenix · 2 Mar 2017

tony_mac said:
I've attached the google earth historical imagery for the site - it looks to have been developed' around 2004, and hasn't changed much since.
(And it was extremely wet at the time)

Looking at the last photo there, is it my imagination or is there a slight noticeable bulge to the retaining wall? It could just be distortion from the images that make up the view being stitched together

42626 · 2 Mar 2017

Verulamius said:
Comparing the 2012 and 2016 pictures it would appear that a bulge has arisen in the wall between those dates.

Indeed. If you have an apple device, look at apple maps in 3D. The bulge is visible there and also what looks like a crack in the concrete slab. Not sure of the date as Apple maps doesn't show a date like Google does.

tony_mac · 2 Mar 2017

Neil Williams said:
Wow, it does, doesn't it?

Does this call into question, once again, Network Rail's management of its property?

it looks to me like a (smaller) bulge may have been present in 2012 as well

(Although that may just be a slightly wobbly fence, as the actual wall looks straight)

notlob.divad · 2 Mar 2017

notlob.divad said:
Good find. Looking at the Google Ariel photo of that same point, is it just my eyes or does the wall look slightly buckled at that point before the collapse.

Dropped pin

https://goo.gl/maps/r1AEmNUEsqy

Verulamius said:
Comparing the 2012 and 2016 pictures it would appear that a bulge has arisen in the wall between those dates.

I noted that yesterday, but couldn't find the historical pictures to confirm when it happened. The cause of these kind of incidents are usually down to a multitude of factors. I feel this incident was just waiting to happen. There is always water running down the walls of the cutting whatever the recent weather has been like. No doubt the railway neighbours land use has contributed to the issue, but network rail where extremely quick to point the finger squarely at them without the investigation being complete, which to me came across as very defensive.

Time will tell I guess. For now let's just get it back open.

Liverpool Disruption 28 Feb 2017 - RAIB report released 30/11/17

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