VTWC Coach K single seats

MrCub · 11 Mar 2017

Had a similar issue in the summer on an All Lines Rover. Staff wanted the space for 'banter' (a hideous word at best). Well guess what - I don't want to hear staff 'banter' in a public area on the train.

Anyway, on one particular service the misery on the trolley refused to served me because I was 'in a staff only seat'. I corrected their mistake politely and when they still refused, I found the TM, explained everything, and then invited the train manager to uphold the refusal to serve me. He didn't, and I was served.

Here's the thing: I think the first class host/buffet jobs are pretty tough going and I DETEST when I hear passengers speaking to them rudely - it's out of order. However, the attitude of some on-board staff is pretty dreadful. I have a very very high tolerance level for most things but things like this make my blood boil quickly and the other person is swiftly, clearly, firmly (but politely) dealt with. Doesn't make me feel good. Doesn't make them feel good. However the 'staff only' seats attitude sucks.

Over a week's travel across much of the network, without any doubt whatsoever VTWC staff were the biggest miseries, closely followed by mean old XC. (As an aside VTEC, GWR, and EMT were lovely).

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Clansman · 11 Mar 2017

Qwerty133 said:
Can anyone really blame the staff for wanting an area to sit down when they can be on the train for several hours?

Is it included in the job description to occupy a first class seat which could otherwise be sold/used by a fare paying passenger?

There's such a broad mix of staff in terms of kindness and arrogance I find, especially with VTWC and VTEC. Makes me wonder how the arrogant ones get their application in as there are a good few I've come across who aren't the most enthusiastic, or half arsed sometimes. That being said, there are some dynamite ones (before folk bite my head off), it's just a shame the negative staff members deviate a lot of our attentions from the ones who are genuinely great and carry out their job with the utmost effort and as true professionals in customer service.

Overall it's disgusting for any staff member to occupy a fare paying
passenger's seat, it shouldn't be acceptable and hopefully Virgin will look into this.

bengolding · 11 Mar 2017

Interesting debate. I always sit in K on Pendolinos as I prefer the privacy of not sitting opposite another FC passenger, being served first plus J & H can be fully reserved. I've always avoided the rearmost 3 seats near the kitchen, which are never laid out. On my usual peak breakfast train, there are often 3 FC Hosts so I do sympathize if they need a seat (plus I get to eavesdrop on latest gossip in Virgin and occasionally the behavior of other FC passengers in other coaches).

As All Line Rover said, this is more unacceptable on Voyagers which have limited FC seats. I find it common on the peak Holyheads and the 1823 Shrewsburys, when staff put their coat on the rearmost single E04 (often E05 & E06 too), when there is a staff seat in the galley! It's out on and I always request they move it as these trains get very busy.

Bletchleyite · 11 Mar 2017

To be fair I don't object to them sitting down - but they should just select an empty seat to do so on each occasion they wish to sit down. Coach K is an unreserved coach. If I can't reserve a single seat in it, they shouldn't be able to either.

Darandio · 11 Mar 2017

Clansman said:
Overall it's disgusting for any staff member to occupy a fare paying
passenger's seat, it shouldn't be acceptable and hopefully Virgin will look into this.

Are you saying no staff should occupy a seat, even if it's available?

Clansman · 11 Mar 2017

Neil Williams said:
To be fair I don't object to them sitting down - but they should just select an empty seat to do so on each occasion they wish to sit down. Coach K is an unreserved coach. If I can't reserve a single seat in it, they shouldn't be able to either.

Here here

bramling · 11 Mar 2017

MrCub said:
Had a similar issue in the summer on an All Lines Rover. Staff wanted the space for 'banter' (a hideous word at best). Well guess what - I don't want to hear staff 'banter' in a public area on the train.

Anyway, on one particular service the misery on the trolley refused to served me because I was 'in a staff only seat'. I corrected their mistake politely and when they still refused, I found the TM, explained everything, and then invited the train manager to uphold the refusal to serve me. He didn't, and I was served.

Here's the thing: I think the first class host/buffet jobs are pretty tough going and I DETEST when I hear passengers speaking to them rudely - it's out of order. However, the attitude of some on-board staff is pretty dreadful. I have a very very high tolerance level for most things but things like this make my blood boil quickly and the other person is swiftly, clearly, firmly (but politely) dealt with. Doesn't make me feel good. Doesn't make them feel good. However the 'staff only' seats attitude sucks.

Over a week's travel across much of the network, without any doubt whatsoever VTWC staff were the biggest miseries, closely followed by mean old XC. (As an aside VTEC, GWR, and EMT were lovely).

I must admit, I have encountered some pretty attitude-carrying catering staff on VT. Whilst I haven't had any encounters as I don't tend to wish to use the disputed single seats, I did have a Glasgow-London journey in coach K, where for most of the journey there was just myself and one other passenger (occupying the two table bays), the catering lady was extremely 'frosty' for no apparent reason. Reading this thread, perhaps she had the hump that anyone was daring to use coach K? This was on a weekend service where, as I understand it, there's only one catering person?

Bletchleyite · 11 Mar 2017

Darandio said:
Are you saying no staff should occupy a seat, even if it's available?

They should not occupy a seat a passenger wants. The reason they want it is not relevant. They should also limit themselves to types of seat of which demand is lowest, so in Standard blank walls, and in 1st tables of 4 and airline pairs.

They could take the two pairs of 1st airlines nearest the cab and nobody would care. It's the popular 4 single seats that are the issue.

bramling · 11 Mar 2017

Darandio said:
Are you saying no staff should occupy a seat, even if it's available?

Personally, I don't have a problem with staff using seats for their break, however:

1) They should choose an unoccupied seat and not expect to move people, let alone use underhand tactics to dissuade people from using the seats in question.

2) Staff shouldn't be huddling in groups and behaving in a manner which intrudes upon the journey experience of others, which from reading this thread and others seems to happen on occasions. Staff engaging in loud banter shouldn't be happening IMO. I certainly don't do it when travelling 'pass'.

Definitely something VT needs to get a grip on, IMO. A dedicated mess facility should be provided. Personally, if I were such staff, I wouldn't want to be having my break in a public area anyway.

MrCub · 11 Mar 2017

I certainly don't object to staff sitting down between runs with the trolley. However coach K (or any coach) is NOT a staff social space.

Jonfun · 11 Mar 2017

MrCub said:
Over a week's travel across much of the network, without any doubt whatsoever VTWC staff were the biggest miseries, closely followed by mean old XC. (As an aside VTEC, GWR, and EMT were lovely).

I get the impression that there is a strong correllation there between that, and general staff morale within those particular companies...

Class172 · 11 Mar 2017

I note that coach K is normally unreserved, however I am currently sat in seat 9 of coach K as my reserved seat. How often do reservations get placed in this carriage? According to the departure boards at Euston the other two 1st coaches, although largely booked, were not full; nonetheless I am currently enjoying my single table to myself.

I can confirm however that on this service the catering staff are not abusing the seating in this carriage, even with it being fairly empty in here.

voyagerdude220 · 11 Mar 2017

I remember a few years ago being rather abruptly/rudely being turfed out of coach K on a busy breakfast time service by the Service Manager, who insisted on having coach K to herself. I remember coaches G H and J all being very busy and my reserved seat being backwards to travel, which I don't like.

More recently, a few weeks ago, sat in coach G, (despite my reservation being for coach H IIRC) and the catering crew in First all sat around a table of 4 and the adjacent table for 2 as soon as they'd offered tea and coffee and proceeded to sit there for around 10 minutes until the next station call. They were very loud and the breakfast order taker bitched to her colleagues that she believed she had taken orders for full English breakfasts from passengers after Wigan, who were getting off at Crewe, but hadn't told her that they were leaving the train soon- but she refused to both inform them it was too little time to offer them breakfast and also could have checked with all passengers ordering food where they were traveling to.

MrCub · 11 Mar 2017

Jonfun said:
I get the impression that there is a strong correllation there between that, and general staff morale within those particular companies...

Yes, quite. VT-Misery is not an unusual or new thing. VT have also gone down the road of giving out pretty dire/insufficient food but hoping you don't notice or remember because they dole out the booze as if there's no tomorrow (except for the rather good breakfast)

dk1 · 11 Mar 2017

MrCub said:
Yes, quite. VT-Misery is not an unusual or new thing. VT have also gone down the road of giving out pretty dire/insufficient food but hoping you don't notice or remember because they dole out the booze as if there's no tomorrow (except for the rather good breakfast)

Give me the booze any day. I can always grab a BLT down at the shop.

Bletchleyite · 11 Mar 2017

Only on VTEC have I encountered a steward who was evidently trying to get me drunk (successfully).

Clansman · 11 Mar 2017

Darandio said:
Are you saying no staff should occupy a seat, even if it's available?

No, I'm saying staff shouldn't think they hold the right to reserve any seat when there's someone without one. If the train's quiet, fair enough, but if someone's wanting a seat, or is in the seat a member of staff previously occupied, then I don't think staff hold the right to stake a claim in that seat on the basis that they sat there first.

Passengers pay for the train journey, and a reserved seat if they book it

Staff get paid to serve for that journey, without a reserved seat (unless specified specifically for staff like on VTEC)

There's my viewpoint.

MidnightFlyer · 11 Mar 2017

I won't comment on the situation at it presently stands, but I wouldn't take issue with them effectively removing the three seats across the back and making them staff only (except for when First becomes wedged), it would remove the ask-the-public-politely-to-move act as now and it's not unreasonable for the crew to have somewhere decent to sit down for a few minutes if they're on it for the long run. However, making them appear to be openly available for the public then that not being the case (no matter how officially) isn't great.

Hopefully if the Pendos ever get a First Class refresh they convert some of the 1+1s elsewhere to singles, which would remove some of the need for people to sit in K if they desire such seating (I quite like it too!).

Neil Williams said:
... I encountered a steward who was evidently trying to get me drunk (successfully).

Sounds like my kind of train

47271 · 11 Mar 2017

Just on the point of reservations in K. They can happen, I've been booked in there a couple of times. I wouldn't go there in the first place, partly because the staff clattering around and 'bantering' in hell's kitchen makes it as conducive to work as Widow Twankey's laundry, but also - and maybe this is in my head - I don't get on with the tilt when K is at the front. I can't spread my stuff out in the airline seats either, it's tables all the way for me. Luckily each time I've been on an 11-car, so Coach G has been the swift answer to that one.

I've just done a quick check on crew behaviour in Caledonian Sleeper lounge cars, a very similar environment and layout, albeit from a different generation of rolling stock design. What I'm told is that staff *do* occupy seats for breaks, chat and paperwork but only when the lounge is virtually deserted, and it would be unheard of for them to make a passenger feel like they shouldn't be there. So if CS can maintain discipline in that way, so can Virgin.

Clansman · 11 Mar 2017

47271 said:
I've just done a quick check on crew behaviour in Caledonian Sleeper lounge cars, a very similar environment and layout, albeit from a different generation of rolling stock design. What I'm told is that staff *do* occupy seats for breaks, chat and paperwork but only when the lounge is virtually deserted, and it would be unheard of for them to make a passenger feel like they shouldn't be there. So if CS can maintain discipline in that way, so can Virgin.

I think Caledonian Sleeper maintain good discipline with this also. Serco seemed to have gotten their recruitment right in my opinion.

I think the discipline's good because the staff know they are going to get the lounge car pretty much to themselves after an hour anyway, so they know when that if they can do their jobs to their utmost like they are suppose to, they can basically get a 6-hour break until morning. It's a cushy shift for the majority of it, and you'll never come across a bam most of the time.

Their staff seem to be more laid back compared to a lot of TOC's, and there's always real family spirit between each of them - even in the days on Nat Ex Scotrail. A good few times have I seen each of them take turns at ordering takeaways for them all, or a Scotrail guard bringing a fry-up onboard for them at Waverley at 4am. It's nice to see, and a welcome change from the grumpy gits I normally come across.

Whereas I imagine if you work day shift for Virgin then it's like roulette as to what your dealt with on each service - although still not an excuse to hog a seat or turf a passenger out.

MrCub · 11 Mar 2017

dk1 said:
Give me the booze any day. I can always grab a BLT down at the shop.

That's fair enough. I think I'm a very very light drinker.

dk1 · 11 Mar 2017

MrCub said:
That's fair enough. I think I'm a very very light drinker.

Get some practice in for your next trip matey

Tetchytyke · 11 Mar 2017

ChiefPlanner said:
Coach K = staff delegated messroom.
.

And that's the problem. I've lost count of the number of times I've been told that carriage is "closed". Its not normally worth the hassle, but it has cost them upgrade money before.

VTEC (well, GNER/NXEC to be exact) putting a specific crew area in their coach K was a much better solution. But even then they sometimes get possessive about the individual seats at that end of the carriage.

Bletchleyite · 12 Mar 2017

Arctic Troll said:
VTEC (well, GNER/NXEC to be exact) putting a specific crew area in their coach K was a much better solution.

Agreed, if crews require a rest area a dedicated one away from passengers needs to be provided, to ensure passengers don't hear "crew banter" and crew can have time away from passengers without being bothered by them and have a proper rest.

But on VTWC the immediate problem (hogging of popular seats of which there are only 4 on board) would be solved by turning a few of the facing tables for 2 into airline seating in the other coaches. I think about half and half (8 airline seats, 4 tables with 8 seats) per full coach would be best. I only want to sit there because that's where those seats are, I'd far rather there were more of them.

jaigee · 12 Mar 2017

I once was asked to move from the single seat next to the kitchen door in K on the excuse that it was prohibited due to hot water having to be carried past!

Five minutes later one of the catering staff was sitting in it!

Bletchleyite · 12 Mar 2017

jaigee said:
I once was asked to move from the single seat next to the kitchen door in K on the excuse that it was prohibited due to hot water having to be carried past!

Five minutes later one of the catering staff was sitting in it!

Good lord, that's bare-faced cheek.

People really should report this every time it happens. Telling lies is even worse than what I saw. Only takes a few seconds via Twitter, but I also put a more formal report in with some more detail of which train it was etc via the contact form.

It needs to stop. All First Class seats should be available to passengers with First Class tickets unless there is a genuine safety issue (e.g. failed lighting, all passenger doors locked out etc), and only the Guard should be telling people they cannot occupy specific seats for that reason. Not catering staff, whose only job is to serve food and drink to passengers, not anything else. They certainly have no train management role.

Qwerty133 · 12 Mar 2017

Neil Williams said:
Good lord, that's bare-faced cheek.

People really should report this every time it happens. Telling lies is even worse than what I saw. Only takes a few seconds via Twitter, but I also put a more formal report in with some more detail of which train it was etc via the contact form.

It needs to stop. All First Class seats should be available to passengers with First Class tickets unless there is a genuine safety issue (e.g. failed lighting, all passenger doors locked out etc), and only the Guard should be telling people they cannot occupy specific seats for that reason. Not catering staff, whose only job is to serve food and drink to passengers, not anything else. They certainly have no train management role.

On EMT at least first class hosts have enough ticket training to check that the passengers have some kind of ticket that is valid on first somewhere in the country so they may have other non-catering roles, but they are not safety critical.

96tommy · 12 Mar 2017

On their 180's, Hull Trains and Grand Central often put reservation labels on a table at the end of the front (or back) coach so that it is reserved for staf

Mag_seven · 12 Mar 2017

Neil Williams said:
But on VTWC the immediate problem (hogging of popular seats of which there are only 4 on board) would be solved by turning a few of the facing tables for 2 into airline seating in the other coaches.

Thats what GWR have done in their HST's. The only down side is that every second seat has a restricted view out the window.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OhoyMu4M2ck/VT6tggnd7rI/AAAAAAAAALM/c-hxJzKagUE/s1600/IMG_6428.JPG

Bletchleyite · 12 Mar 2017

96tommy said:
On their 180's, Hull Trains and Grand Central often put reservation labels on a table at the end of the front (or back) coach so that it is reserved for staf

I have less of an issue with it being Company policy (on VT it is not), but if it is they should reserve some less popular seating, say a table for four.

VTWC Coach K single seats

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