Future of the Blackpool South line

D60 · 13 Mar 2017

Busaholic said:
To be fair, Lytham St Annes Corporation buses would only have gone to Ribble (now Stagecoach) at a slightly later date if Blackpool had not made their move. I must say, though, that LSA were the epitome of a municipal operation to me, lovely livery and buses, always a joy to visit.

(Lytham St Annes Corporation Transport became Fylde Borough Transport in 1974... There was a remarkable period from 1986 til 1994/6 when Fylde buses were out-competing within Blackpool.. to the point that any 'inevitability' over which would take over the other was not a foregone conclusion... But Blackpool Council's stake in the combined bus and tram operation prevailed...
Meanwhile.. Can we please retain and enhance our direct link to the national rail network.. Surely not too much to ask... Thaanks!)

RailUK Forums

D60 · 13 Mar 2017

(Until timetable rationalisation and simplification a few years ago, the South Fylde Line benefited from a 40min interval service in the Manchester direction in the early morning peak.. non-stop ECS running to St Annes and Blackpool South... Such a service to fulfill traffic demand was sacrificed in pursuit of a simplified clockface timetable..)

Cliveblackpool · 13 Mar 2017

To me Blackpool North Station is not convenient. A lot of business people get a taxi to Preston
One of the original thoughts was that tram schemes had a much larger pot of money than for railway investments!
Passing loops on the South line I guess would be 5 million each including signalling. Maybe an extra one to buy the land back to enable one dynamic loop, which would give the much needed flexibility needed for delayed trains. The branch is occupied for 50 minutes in the hour.
Tram conversion would cost a huge amount. It cost over £100 million to convert the Blackpool tramway - around 11 miles.

Having to change at Preston and Kirkham & Wesham/ Lytham to get to one of the most popular tourist attractions in Europe.
Most of my regular customers traveling by rail use Blackpool South. Even with a long wait it is easier and saves them an £8 taxi fare.
For me with the South Service reduced to a fragmented and slower tram /train/ train service, probably Stagecoach 68 bus would be the cheaper and more practical option.

Busaholic · 13 Mar 2017

D60 said:
(Until timetable rationalisation and simplification a few years ago, the South Fylde Line benefited from a 40min interval service in the Manchester direction in the early morning peak.. non-stop ECS running to St Annes and Blackpool South... Such a service to fulfill traffic demand was sacrificed in pursuit of a simplified clockface timetable..)

No doubt resulting in a subsequent migration of passengers. Clockface in the peak, as soon as you can't run a half-hourly service, is nonsense if the demand is there, unless perhaps you could only run a train every 54 minutes in which case it might be justified.

Meant to add that LSA became Fylde by the way, but dinner beckoned!

D60 · 13 Mar 2017

Busaholic said:
No doubt resulting in a subsequent migration of passengers. Clockface in the peak, as soon as you can't run a half-hourly service, is nonsense if the demand is there, unless perhaps you could only run a train every 54 minutes in which case it might be justified.

Meant to add that LSA became Fylde by the way, but dinner beckoned!

Yes... The whole point of the existence of this thread in the first place was the posting of a link (in 'another thread') to calls in a newspaper article (sorry cant post links on this phone!) from elected representatives in Fylde (at local Council and Parliamentary level) for a half hourly service to Bpl Sth by means of a passing loop at Ansdell..)

Bald Rick · 13 Mar 2017

Cliveblackpool said:
Passing loops on the South line I guess would be 5 million each including signalling.

Passing loops would be rather more than £5m each. They would need signals...

HSTEd · 13 Mar 2017

Even Penryn cost £7.8m, and that was several years ago now.
£10m seems more reasonable at absolute minimum.

Camden · 13 Mar 2017

Conversion of a line to end on the outskirts of Blackpool seems unlikely to transform travel, especially as I expect a bus would be faster from there. The alternative of a passing loop to enable just two pacers an hour doesn't seem like anything to aim for either.

However, a new tram line from Lytham, through Warton and into Ashton/Preston via a Preston New Road route would link a considerable population and serve a triple purpose (Blackpool tram, Outskirts to Blackpool/Preston, Preston tram).

I make it about 17km from Lytham into Preston town centre.

Lankyline · 13 Mar 2017

This might be worth a look, it shows the usage of stations from 1998 to 2015, just run your cursor over the station and it will show the relevant detail

http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/b...r-station-grown-check-out-our-interactive-map

Bald Rick · 13 Mar 2017

The obvious answer - to me anyway - is tram train.

Low cost 750v DC electrification to Kirkham, a voltage changeover in the move just on the branch, a small switcheroo of the track in the Pleasure Beach station area, a turnback towards Blackpool at Lytham (reinstate the old platform), a loop at St Annes (ditto), and conversion of some / all of the Flexity trams to dual voltage and with TPWS / AWS fitted. Plus 4 new ones. Cross fingers that Preston can cope with the extra movements.

Of the 4 trams/hr that go to Starr Gate, 2 carry on to Lytham, and 2 to Preston.

Pros:
x2 frequency to Preston, at similar or slightly better journey times
x4 frequency between the main centres of population on the branch (Blackpool, Lytham, St Annes) ar similar or slightly better journey times
Direct link from Lytham & St Annes to 'Central' Blackpool, and beyond*

Cons:
Blackburn / Burnley / Colne lose their through service to the South branch, but that link is operated purely for operational convenience rather than any significant commercial need.

Cost - about £50m

* in my experience, most people heading from Lytham / St Annes to any part of Blackpool that isn't near the south shore will drive or get a cab. Whilst personal anecdote is the worst form of evidence, of the hundred or so times I have made the trip, I have never caught the train.

D60 · 13 Mar 2017

Camden said:
Conversion of a line to end on the outskirts of Blackpool seems unlikely to transform travel, especially as I expect a bus would be faster from there. The alternative of a passing loop to enable just two pacers an hour doesn't seem like anything to aim for either.

However, a new tram line from Lytham, through Warton and into Ashton/Preston via a Preston New Road route would link a considerable population and serve a triple purpose (Blackpool tram, Outskirts to Blackpool/Preston, Preston tram).

I make it about 17km from Lytham into Preston town centre.

Blimey! I remember a bonkers scheme from the 1970s involving a misappropriation for tramway conversion of the South Fylde Line, and extension beyond Lytham by way of Warton... It never happened...

NotATrainspott · 13 Mar 2017

Camden said:
Conversion of a line to end on the outskirts of Blackpool seems unlikely to transform travel, especially as I expect a bus would be faster from there. The alternative of a passing loop to enable just two pacers an hour doesn't seem like anything to aim for either.

However, a new tram line from Lytham, through Warton and into Ashton/Preston via a Preston New Road route would link a considerable population and serve a triple purpose (Blackpool tram, Outskirts to Blackpool/Preston, Preston tram).

I make it about 17km from Lytham into Preston town centre.

The last time this topic was discussed to any great extent I linked it to the prospect of a Preston Interchange HS2 station on the M55. If trams can get to Kirkham, they may as well go that bit further and link directly to HS2. However, from the Scotland options report it seems that they're interested in the idea of serving the existing station directly, so an interchange station might not happen. Without an important transport hub on that side of Preston I don't see there being much of a reason to have tram tracks extending that far.

Bald Rick said:
The obvious answer - to me anyway - is tram train.

Low cost 750v DC electrification to Kirkham, a voltage changeover in the move just on the branch, a small switcheroo of the track in the Pleasure Beach station area, a turnback towards Blackpool at Lytham (reinstate the old platform), a loop at St Annes (ditto), and conversion of some / all of the Flexity trams to dual voltage and with TPWS / AWS fitted. Plus 4 new ones. Cross fingers that Preston can cope with the extra movements.

Of the 4 trams/hr that go to Starr Gate, 2 carry on to Lytham, and 2 to Preston.

Pros:
x2 frequency to Preston, at similar or slightly better journey times
x4 frequency between the main centres of population on the branch (Blackpool, Lytham, St Annes) ar similar or slightly better journey times
Direct link from Lytham & St Annes to 'Central' Blackpool, and beyond*

Cons:
Blackburn / Burnley / Colne lose their through service to the South branch, but that link is operated purely for operational convenience rather than any significant commercial need.

Cost - about £50m

* in my experience, most people heading from Lytham / St Annes to any part of Blackpool that isn't near the south shore will drive or get a cab. Whilst personal anecdote is the worst form of evidence, of the hundred or so times I have made the trip, I have never caught the train.

This is basically the same as full conversion in the sense that the entire Blackpool South line would be run with trams alone. Running trams to Preston would be possible but I'm just not sure about how worthwhile it would be.

thenorthern · 13 Mar 2017

I don't think a tram conversion is a realistic possibility as given that the tramway still operates a large number of balloon car trams it would likely mean having to raise the height of the bridges to fit the trams under them. I don't think this could be justified given the number of passengers on the line.

I know before the credit crunch Blackpool Airport like many regional airports tried to become a major airport and there were plans to upgrade Squires Gate station and rename it Blackpool Airport station but that never happened.

Kite159 · 13 Mar 2017

One upside if the Blackpool South trains are replaced by trams at say Lytham is that some of the fare dodgers might have to start paying*

*although all in all fairness, none of the stations have TVMs and when a pair of units turns up with no gangway [i.e. 142 or 150/1s] and no additional member of staff in the leading unit, you can get away with a free ride, especially with the barriers at North.

NotATrainspott · 13 Mar 2017

thenorthern said:
I don't think a tram conversion is a realistic possibility as given that the tramway still operates a large number of balloon car trams it would likely mean having to raise the height of the bridges to fit the trams under them. I don't think this could be justified given the number of passengers on the line.

I know before the credit crunch Blackpool Airport like many regional airports tried to become a major airport and there were plans to upgrade Squires Gate station and rename it Blackpool Airport station but that never happened.

There would be no reason to run Balloon trams out on the converted section. An additional order of trams would be needed in any case, as the total route length would be far too much for the existing fleet to manage.

Bald Rick · 13 Mar 2017

NotATrainspott said:
This is basically the same as full conversion in the sense that the entire Blackpool South line would be run with trams alone. Running trams to Preston would be possible but I'm just not sure about how worthwhile it would be.

It would be worthwhile in that for very little additional cost you retain the through link to Preston. Which is very important to the community and those of us who use the line regularly.

Tramfan · 13 Mar 2017

The Balloon cars only work Heritage Tours along the prom now anyway, even the ones converted to be compatible with the supertram platforms. They already have an additional 2 Flexity trams on order being delivered this year, so they'd simply order an additional set of Flexities.

Bletchleyite · 13 Mar 2017

Bald Rick said:
It would be worthwhile in that for very little additional cost you retain the through link to Preston. Which is very important to the community and those of us who use the line regularly.

Is it?

Would people really prefer hourly to Preston over quarter-hourly with a connection at Kirkham?

I wouldn't. I'd go for the connection.

Bald Rick · 13 Mar 2017

Neil Williams said:
Is it?

Would people really prefer hourly to Preston over quarter-hourly with a connection at Kirkham?

I wouldn't. I'd go for the connection.

No, but that wasn't what I was suggesting. I was suggesting half hourly to Preston, which I think would be preferable given:

a) the demographic of people who use the line (a high proportion of people have one or more of: kids in tow, luggage, or a pension)
b) getting the connections to work at Kirkham
c) the journey time penalty for the connection

philthetube · 13 Mar 2017

NotATrainspott said:
It isn't valuable as a diversionary route unless you build far more infrastructure than would be needed for 364 days of the year. It's a branch line that happens to end up in the same town as a regional main line. A diversionary route worthy of electrification is one which connects two important electrified regions and has the infrastructure in place to take more services. Wigan-Bolton, for instance. Bolton-Blackburn-Preston? Not so much.

Where would a second train per hour on the Blackpool South line go? Given the number of stops, it would have to be a relatively local destination where you would run a stopping service. Extending a stopping service from Manchester would be of dubious utility and may not be possible without additional overtaking opportunities. The best candidate for through running is the same one that it currently uses - the Colne Valley line. Then you can improve services on both lines and give both of them better links to Preston for onward connections. However, there's no point wiring up the South line if the trains will need to run without wires up to Colne. You would have to wire up the whole thing at once to make it worthwhile, and that line is well down the list of priorities for electrification.

We know what you mean but Colne, on the line from Preston has no connection with the Colne Valley.

Xenophon PCDGS · 14 Mar 2017

philthetube said:
We know what you mean but Colne, on the line from Preston has no connection with the Colne Valley.

Just as an aside, the Colne Valley line that ran between Haverhill and Chappel and Wakes Colne had no less than eight intermediate stations in its heyday and part of that line is now a heritage railway.

DynamicSpirit · 14 Mar 2017

Bald Rick said:
The obvious answer - to me anyway - is tram train.

Pros:
x2 frequency to Preston, at similar or slightly better journey times
x4 frequency between the main centres of population on the branch (Blackpool, Lytham, St Annes) ar similar or slightly better journey times
Direct link from Lytham & St Annes to 'Central' Blackpool, and beyond*

Cons:
Blackburn / Burnley / Colne lose their through service to the South branch, but that link is operated purely for operational convenience rather than any significant commercial need.

Isn't the other 'Con' that - judging by experience in Rotherham, estimated time to build it and get it running would be something like 100 years?

DynamicSpirit · 14 Mar 2017

Bevan Price said:
I know this will not happen, but what I would like to see is the line redoubled, electrified and extended to a new town centre station close to the site of Blackpool Central.

That would be my preference too. Extending to Blackpool Central would instantly make the line massively more useful. (Actually, in an ideal World with much more funding available, my preference would be to return the rail line to Blackpool Central AND tunnel under the town centre and run the line right through to Blackpool North - with most existing Blackpool North services then being extended to Blackpool South. But I realize that would require a huge investment).

I think one problem with proposing conversion of the line to a tram route is that the trams would take much longer to get from Blackpool South to the town centre (assuming they run along the existing routes). On the other hand, if the rail line was extended, you'd be looking at a couple of minutes max. to get from Blackpool South to Blackpool Central, making the service more attractive for people heading for the town centre. If you wanted the flexibility of tram connections then, from what I know of the road layout, it wouldn't be that hard to divert the tram line to directly connect to Pleasure Beach rail station.

El Blanco · 14 Mar 2017

D60 said:
(Lytham St Annes Corporation Transport became Fylde Borough Transport in 1974... There was a remarkable period from 1986 til 1994/6 when Fylde buses were out-competing within Blackpool.. to the point that any 'inevitability' over which would take over the other was not a foregone conclusion... But Blackpool Council's stake in the combined bus and tram operation prevailed...
Meanwhile.. Can we please retain and enhance our direct link to the national rail network.. Surely not too much to ask... Thaanks!)

Around 1993, Fylde Buses did the evening Blackpool - Preston runs via Kirkham too. They were branded Blue Buses at the time.

El Blanco · 14 Mar 2017

Bevan Price said:
I know this will not happen, but what I would like to see is the line redoubled, electrified and extended to a new town centre station close to the site of Blackpool Central.

1. Terminating the line at Blackpool South, over one mile from the town centre, was incredibly stupid, and probably deterred a lot of potential passengers.

2. Apart from (I think) two removed / blocked bridges and a car park, there is little other than money preventing extension beyond Blackpool South.

3. Property in the way is not a problem when they build a new road - or HS2 - and can be removed, given the willpower - and the money for compulsory purchase.

4. Lytham to Kirkham is about 6 miles of mostly lightly populated countryside - not very attractive to tram operators, so I don't see anyone wanting to run trams over that section.

As for services over an electrified line, I would suggest hourly to Manchester (maybe taking over the Preston - Hazel Grove paths, and hourly to Preston (whilst hoping that the East Lancs & Copy Pit routes might eventually be electrified....). The existing locals from/to Colne would run only as far as Preston (Burnley, Accrington & Blackburn would still have their through trains to/from Blackpool North.)

Wrea Green exists in the countryside gap referred to above. This affluent area is continuing to grow. It's also a short hop from Warton for residential and Bae traffic. I'm not sure if a light rail station there would work as if people had to change at Kirkham for stations south then they'd simply drive there.

W230 · 14 Mar 2017

While i'm always amazed at the sheer cost of upgrading heavy rail lines (how much for passing loops?! :lol:

) I think a scheme has to be economically viable and do as much as it can for the money.

Spending millions and millions on just getting two trains an hour doesn't seem worth it to me. I'm impressed by the success of the ever increasing Manchester Metrolink tra/Croydon tram networks and agree with Neil Williams that the best option could well be running a tram from Blackpool North to Kirkham to give a NR connection at both ends. Run tram trains on the branch while upgrading it at the significantly lower cost that would be required for tram standards.

A frequent, clockface timetable seems far more advantageous in my opinion, even with a change required at Kirkham. I note that away from London the idea of changing trains seems to be greeted with horror. Surely passengers prefer more options/better frequency than a through train? Maybe it's just me!!

I prefer heavy rail but sometimes you got to admit that tram-train might just be the best answer.

glbotu · 14 Mar 2017

I'd say it could be done with an increase in frequency on the Blackpool North branch. Currently, Kirkham & Wesham gets 3 trains per hour to Preston. This is because of the 4 tph leaving Blackpool North (and 1tph leaving Blackpool South), only 2 from North and 1 from South stop there. Now, a bit of timetable fudgery could easily allow all 5 of those to stop at Kirkham and Wesham, which would be warranted, given it was a "Fylde Parkway" as well as serving the town itself. This would mean 4 trams (of more tram-trainish variety) per hour would connect with 5 trains per hour, which is quite a nice set of connections.

Cliveblackpool · 14 Mar 2017

DynamicSpirit said:
That would be my preference too. Extending to Blackpool Central would instantly make the line massively more useful. (Actually, in an ideal World with much more funding available, my preference would be to return the rail line to Blackpool Central AND tunnel under the town centre and run the line right through to Blackpool North - with most existing Blackpool North services then being extended to Blackpool South. But I realize that would require a huge investment).

I think one problem with proposing conversion of the line to a tram route is that the trams would take much longer to get from Blackpool South to the town centre (assuming they run along the existing routes). On the other hand, if the rail line was extended, you'd be looking at a couple of minutes max. to get from Blackpool South to Blackpool Central, making the service more attractive for people heading for the town centre. If you wanted the flexibility of tram connections then, from what I know of the road layout, it wouldn't be that hard to divert the tram line to directly connect to Pleasure Beach rail station.

A four platform terminus at Central Station would be great!!
Closing Central station was a huge mistake. Blackpool Council turned its back on the railway, and a motorway to the centre was their dream. They got Yeadon way instead along the Marton line.
An alternative could be a tramway from south to Central Station along the old rail route connect to the Promenade tramway, and the service continuing to North Station. Having a terminus at North Station seems ridiculous, it should be planned to continue to Layton, Victoria Hospital for example.

Here is a link to the Sintropher study.
I think with the separation of the South Branch at Kirkham it may already be on the agenda. Useful maps for those not very familiar with Blackpool's railways.
http://www.sintropher.eu/sites/default/files/images/editors/WP1/Finding report WP1A16-A17- A15_0.pdf

DynamicSpirit · 14 Mar 2017

Sudden thought - in a couple of years time, all the pacers are likely to get withdrawn, which presumably means there's a good chance the line will suddenly see new, sleek, modern diesels running along it, even with no improvements to the infrastructure. I wonder if that would mean more seats per train too. You would expect that, even with only the hourly service, that will make using the line a fair bit more attractive, so could increase passenger numbers. How would that impact any case for work on the infrastructure? Could new trains mean faster acceleration so slightly faster journey times? Would higher existing passenger numbers make it easier to build a case for infrastructure investment for a more frequent service, or would higher capacity on the trains weaken the case?

philthetube · 14 Mar 2017

DynamicSpirit said:
Sudden thought - in a couple of years time, all the pacers are likely to get withdrawn, which presumably means there's a good chance the line will suddenly see new, sleek, modern diesels running along it, even with no improvements to the infrastructure. I wonder if that would mean more seats per train too. You would expect that, even with only the hourly service, that will make using the line a fair bit more attractive, so could increase passenger numbers. How would that impact any case for work on the infrastructure? Could new trains mean faster acceleration so slightly faster journey times? Would higher existing passenger numbers make it easier to build a case for infrastructure investment for a more frequent service, or would higher capacity on the trains weaken the case?

It would be nice but I suspect, assuming it remains linked to the colne branch, it will end up with the worst of what is left.

Future of the Blackpool South line

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