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Dublin - Belfast Express Bus War

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F Great Eastern

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A very bloody international bus war is about to launch between Dublin and Belfast with FirstGroup company Aircoach and Dublin Coach, that is owned ironically by the founder of Aircoach. Everything that has been seen so far suggests it's going to be possibly the biggest bus war seen in these parts.

Dublin Coach have been given permission to share the same stop with Aircoach outside the Europa Bus Center in Belfast on Glengall Street which is hard enough to find a parking space for a bus now, never mind with two operators running there very soon.

Because the route will be classified as international it will be run under EU Law rather than under the legislation of either Northern Ireland or Ireland, which would prohibit the kind of competition we are likely to see on this corridor over the coming weeks as neither country can do a huge amount about it.

Essentially what will happen is Dublin Coach are going to start a 16 service a day non stop service in each direction from Belfast to Dublin whilst Aircoach have a 22 service a day route in each direction going from Belfast to Dublin via Dublin Airport without any other stops. Both services will leave the same time as each other and in Belfast from the same stops. Both Aircoach and Dublin Coach services will operate from both terminus at 30 minutes past each hour.

In addition to this Bus Eireann and Translink will run two Express non stop services a day at 00 past the hour and services every hour via Banbridge, Newry and Sprucefield, these services are unlikely to be hit so much because of their intermediate traffic and the fact that they will not be so prone to passenger abstraction at stop since they will be inside the Europa well away from the Battle Royale outside. There is a view that they would be quite happy to see each other fight it out on the streets whilst they keep away from it inside.

Why a bus war? Effectively there's going to be two Dublin to Belfast Express non stop services at the same time then a gap of another hour before the next one, clearly there is going to be a lot of fun and games at the bus stop shared between both of them and what wouldn't surprise me is that since the Dublin Coach service is not serving the airport, it can get to Belfast faster for the return leg, and then pitch up at the bus stop and hoover up a few Aircoach passengers who are waiting for a bus leaving at the same time.
 
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radamfi

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I presume you don't have a limited number of licences given out for Belfast to Dublin like you have for intra-ROI routes so I would assume unlimited competition is allowed as long as there are no intra-ROI or intra-NI journeys possible.
 

F Great Eastern

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I presume you don't have a limited number of licences given out for Belfast to Dublin like you have for intra-ROI routes so I would assume unlimited competition is allowed as long as there are no intra-ROI or intra-NI journeys possible.

Since the route is international, the Irish Republic or Northern Irish governments have almost zero jurisdiction on such a route since all passenger flow is cross border on these routes with no passengers traveling from one stop in a country to another in the country, it is run under EU legislation so doesn't need licenses.

It would never be allowed in ROI, since licensing guidelines requires similar inter-city services to have 15-30 minutes time separation to avoid this kind of tactic and require competing operators to operate from different bus stops in an aid to prevent the kind of tactics that we have all seen in the UK over the years.
 

radamfi

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A lot of Europe now allow unlimited competition on domestic coach services, notably Germany which had several companies on a number of the main inter-city routes for a while. But in Germany, that eventually settled down was companies either gave up or got bought out so there is now one dominant player. So I wouldn't be surprised if the Belfast to Dublin war ends within a year or two.
 

radamfi

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what effect will this have on Enterprise?

I wonder how much overlap there is between the train and coach markets on this route? The train is not particularly fast and only every 2 hours and doesn't serve the airport. But the train does serve several intermediate points and the coach competition is mostly about end to end, so in that sense it shouldn't make much difference.
 

bangor-toad

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what effect will this have on Enterprise?

None I'd imagine.
Enterprise tickets are often more expensive and for a slower service with a lower frequency.

Personally I prefer the comfort of the train whenever I need to go down to Dublin but the coaches are fast, cheap and go when I want / need them to. It'll be interesting to see how the coach competition plays out. Will there be a price war? Probably but fares are already cheap. Will there be absolute chaos on Glengall Street in Belfast? Absolutely - it's pretty mad already...

If you want the train you'll continue to book and go that way. I don't see it being affected by the coaches offering an even lower price.
Cheers,
Mr Toad
 

camperdown9

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My parents who are senior citizens get to travel on the train from Belfast to Dublin for free. Senior citizens who live in NI seam to get a lot more free travel than those who live in England.

Is there a demand for this number of buses between Belfast and Dublin? Seams a lot.

Alex
 

F Great Eastern

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what effect will this have on Enterprise?

Currently the services look something like this

From Belfast

Aircoach 705X
Belfast - Dublin Airport - Dublin
- First bus 00:30
- Then every hour apart from 21:30
- Last Bus 22:30

Translink/Bus Eireann X1
Belfast - Sprucefield - Banbridge - Newry - Dublin Airport - Dublin
- First bus 1.00am
- Then 3.00am, 5.00am
- Every hour from 6am until 11pm

Translink/Bus Eireann X2
Belfast - Dublin Airport - Dublin
- 9.00am & 10.00am only

Enterprise
06:45, 08:00, 10:35, 12:35, 14:05, 16:05, 18:05, 20:05

From Dublin

Aircoach 705X
Dublin - Dublin Airport - Belfast
- First bus 01:30
- Next bus 03:30
- Then every hour until 23:30

Translink/Bus Eireann X1
Dublin - Dublin Airport - Newry - Banbridge - Sprucefield - Belfast
- First bus 1.00am
- Then 3.00am, 5.00am
- Every hour from 6am until 11pm

Enterprise
07:35, 09:30, 11:30, 13:20, 15:20, 16:50, 18:50, 20:50
 

F Great Eastern

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Is there a demand for this number of buses between Belfast and Dublin? Seams a lot.

Right now there is
22x First Aircoach 705X Belfast - Dublin Airport - Dublin Express
21x Translink / Bus Eireann/Translink X1 Belfast - Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Dublin Airport - Dublin
9x Enterprise Train train.
2x Translink / Bus Eireann/Translink X2 - Belfast - Dublin Airport - Dublin Express.

Dublin Coach are adding:
16x Belfast - Dublin Express running head to head with First Aircoach.

To give you an idea about how crazy the timetable and number of buses are you're going to see something like this from 23rd March

08:30am First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
08:35am Dublin Coach M1 to Dublin
09:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
09:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X2 to Dublin via Airport

09:30am First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
09:35am Dublin Coach M1 to Dublin
10:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
10:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X2 to Dublin via Airport

10:30am First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
10:35am Dublin Coach M1 to Dublin
10:35am Enterprise Train to Dublin via Portadown, Newry, Dundalk, Drogheda
11:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
11:30am First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
11:35am Dublin Coach M1 to Dublin
12:00pm Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
12:30pm First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
12:35pm Dublin Coach M1 to Dublin
12:35pm Enterprise Train to Dublin via Portadown, Newry, Dundalk, Drogheda
1:00pm Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
1:30pm First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
1:35pm Dublin Coach M1 to Dublin
2:00pm Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
2:05pm Enterprise Train to Dublin via Portadown, Newry, Dundalk, Drogheda
2:30pm First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
2:35pm Dublin Coach M1 to Dublin

The idea with Dublin Coach leaving 5 minutes later from Belfast end makes it look less predatory, but essentially what the tactic appears to be, is as both services leave Dublin xx:30 past the hour, unlike in Belfast, since the Dublin Coach can get into Belfast earlier, it can then hang about at the terminus for the return leg before Aircoach gets there, and then pretty much hoover up any people waiting for Aircoach.

The fact for most of the day there are two express buses in 5 minutes and then none for 55 is typical bus war stuff.
 
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Flying Snail

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Currently the services look something like this

From Belfast

Aircoach 705X
Belfast - Dublin Airport - Dublin
- First bus 00:30
- Then every hour apart from 21:30
- Last Bus 22:30

Translink/Bus Eireann X1
Belfast - Sprucefield - Banbridge - Newry - Dublin Airport - Dublin
- First bus 1.00am
- Then 3.00am, 5.00am
- Every hour from 6am until 11pm

Translink/Bus Eireann X2
Belfast - Dublin Airport - Dublin
- 9.00am & 10.00am only

Enterprise
06:45, 08:00, 10:35, 12:35, 14:05, 16:05, 18:05, 20:05

From Dublin

Aircoach 705X
Dublin - Dublin Airport - Belfast
- First bus 01:30
- Next bus 03:30
- Then every hour until 23:30

Translink/Bus Eireann X1
Dublin - Dublin Airport - Newry - Banbridge - Sprucefield - Belfast
- First bus 1.00am
- Then 3.00am, 5.00am
- Every hour from 6am until 11pm

Enterprise
07:35, 09:30, 11:30, 13:20, 15:20, 16:50, 18:50, 20:50

Translink/Bus Eireann also augment their service in the busier summer period with more X2 non-stop services from Belfast. These are mostly to/from Dublin Airport only.

I can't really see a non-stop City-City service being profitable with three competitors, for the bus operators Dublin Airport generates more traffic than Dublin City. Early southbound and late northbound services are practically empty at the city but can generate full loads with Airport passengers.
 

F Great Eastern

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There is a suspicion in some parts that the way Dublin Coach are handling this route launch has an element of calling the competitions bluff on it since they've talked a lot about it for the last 7 days or so on social media without actually producing a full timetable yet which makes you think if they are holding something back as a surprise.

For instance at the weekend and on Monday they claimed they were going to have 9 services a day in each direction and today they are talking about 16 services a day in each direction. Now either they were calling someones bluff, or they suddenly decided to increase the number of services just before launch.

The drip feeding of the full details of the route where a bit more information on the service is released every day has been going on for pretty much the last week, who knows how long it will go on for, there are some who suspect that they may well announce they are serving the airport right at the last minute for the ultimate shock factor.

I can't see either operator playing all their cards just yet, I get the funny feeling the are both holding back their plans to see who blinks first and I doubt Aircoach will do anything until Dublin Coach actually publishes a full timetable rather than just saying that they will operate X services a day at Y minutes past the hour starting at Z time at each terminus like they are doing now
 
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F Great Eastern

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Confirmed that Dublin Coach will be charging £8/€10 single and returns twice the price of singles. No mention if there will be a discount for online booking but from what I read it appears to be flat-rate for all services.

For Comparison here are current

Aircoach

Online:
From £8/€10 single (yield managed)
From £16/€20 return (yield managed)

On Bus:
£14/€17 Single
£20/€24 Return

Translink / Bus Eireann

Online
From £8.50 (TL) / From €12.95 (BE) single (yield managed)
From £17 (TL) / From €25.90 (BE) return (yield managed)

On Bus:
£14.80 (TL) / €18.00 (BE) single
£21.60 (TL) / €27.00 (BE) return

I would be very surprised if nobody changes their fares because for walk ups especially Dublin Coach are going to undercut the operators by quite some distance and I'd expect the others will change their fare structure.

Also the strange disparity between Translink charging less for the same services than Bus Eireann charged will surely have to change, because it's far more difference than the exchange rate.

It'll also be interesting to see if Aircoach drop the yield management, because whilst their fares start at £8/€10 the same as DUblin Coach are charging, they can go up to £12/€15 if you try and book on a busy service at the last minute.
 
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Teflon Lettuce

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Confirmed that Dublin Coach will be charging £8/€10 single and returns twice the price of singles. No mention if there will be a discount for online booking but from what I read it appears to be flat-rate for all services.

For Comparison here are current

Aircoach

Online:
From £8/€10 single (yield managed)
From £16/€20 return (yield managed)

On Bus:
£14/€17 Single
£20/€24 Return

Translink / Bus Eireann

Online
From £8.50 (TL) / From €12.95 (BE) single (yield managed)
From £17 (TL) / From €25.90 (BE) return (yield managed)

On Bus:
£14.80 (TL) / €18.00 (BE) single
£21.60 (TL) / €27.00 (BE) return

I would be very surprised if nobody changes their fares because for walk ups especially Dublin Coach are going to undercut the operators by quite some distance and I'd expect the others will change their fare structure.

Also the strange disparity between Translink charging less for the same services than Bus Eireann charged will surely have to change, because it's far more difference than the exchange rate.

It'll also be interesting to see if Aircoach drop the yield management, because whilst their fares start at £8/€10 the same as DUblin Coach are charging, they can go up to £12/€15 if you try and book on a busy service at the last minute.

odd that all the return fares are EXACTLY double the single fares.. it's normal practice to offer some sort of discount over the price of 2 singles.. especially if there is competition.... where is the incentive for the passenger to tie themselves to one operator rather than wait for the first bus to turn up?
 

F Great Eastern

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odd that all the return fares are EXACTLY double the single fares.. it's normal practice to offer some sort of discount over the price of 2 singles.. especially if there is competition.... where is the incentive for the passenger to tie themselves to one operator rather than wait for the first bus to turn up?

The only return fares that are double the single fares are the online ones on Aircoach and Translink / Bus Eireann fares. These fares can only be booked up to a day in advance, so the issue about taking the first bus on the day doesn't come into it.

The walk up fares for Aircoach and Translink / Bus Eireann all include savings to be had for those paying return fares versus buying two singles, I presume for exactly the reason that you outlined, to encourage you to use the same operator both ways.

The online fares are generally including generous discounts, but tend to be restricted when it comes to change of travel plans due to the yield management nature of their pricing. The online fares however, do mean that you will be guaranteed a place on the bus and help the operators plan reliefs which has worked very well for TL/BE and Aircoach in capacity planning.

However from the information released so far, it appears that Dublin Coach will operate a flat £8/€10 single, regardless if it is bought online or on bus and returns will be double the single price from the information so far since this is the only figures that they have mentioned on twitter and social media where there appears to be a very stage managed slow release of info day by day.

However considering every day they are releasing a tiny bit more information on the route and last week stated it was 9 services a day and now it's 16, don't be surprised if there is another twist in the tale just yet, many people over here in the industry believe they might have a trump card which they are not going to reveal until as late as possible - we'll see if that is the case.
 

Flying Snail

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The only return fares that are double the single fares are the online ones on Aircoach and Translink / Bus Eireann fares. These fares can only be booked up to a day in advance, so the issue about taking the first bus on the day doesn't come into it.

The walk up fares for Aircoach and Translink / Bus Eireann all include savings to be had for those paying return fares versus buying two singles, I presume for exactly the reason that you outlined, to encourage you to use the same operator both ways.

Offering only single fares is done on all Dublin Coach routes, I think they have realised it often make them seem cheaper than they are. I have heard countless times people reference them being cheaper when it is only true for a single fare, even when competitors return fares are less than 2 DC singles.

Kilkenny-Dublin for example, also €10 single whereas Bus Eireann and JJ Kavanagh are around €14 single but both are less than €20 cash return and Bus Eireann are around €16 online.
 

F Great Eastern

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Offering only single fares is done on all Dublin Coach routes, I think they have realised it often make them seem cheaper than they are. I have heard countless times people reference them being cheaper when it is only true for a single fare, even when competitors return fares are less than 2 DC singles.

Kilkenny-Dublin for example, also €10 single whereas Bus Eireann and JJ Kavanagh are around €14 single but both are less than €20 cash return and Bus Eireann are around €16 online.

Usually the downside to the fact that the walk-up fares are the same as the online fares means that there is no real incentive for people to buy online, and one of the arguments for getting passengers to buy online, and would be normally very useful in a bus war, is that they are not going to decide on a day to change to a rival since they have already booked

However in this case I don't think that will help AC/BE/TL - Dublin Coach's strategy basically promotes leaving it to the last minute as you have got nothing to lose, whether you book online or not you get the same price and for last minute trips or for those who are not sure what bus they need, the cheaper walk up fares of Dublin Coach mean they will win every time.

However there is no way that the on bus prices will stay as they currently are on Bus Eireann / Translink and Aircoach because of the sheer gulf in them and Dublin Coach will mean for walk up passengers to Dublin City they will both be taken to the cleaners and I can see BE/TL having a common fare structure rather than the gulf that exists between BE and TL now.

The real question is will the operators reduce their prices to match or undercut Dublin Coach after launch or will they believe that the Dublin Coach prices are not sustainable and not go that far and take the risk they could retain passengers and the yields on Dublin Coach will be so poor that Dublin Coach has to increase prices.

Personally if we're going to have an all out fare war, a smart choice by the competition would be to match Dublin Coach on walk-up fares and undercut them on online fares by a small fraction using fares like £7.50 / €9.50 single. It would stop a bleed to the competition and the fact they already have volume would give them better yields than Dublin Coach.

Dublin Coach of course could respond by cutting again, but the problem with that is going to be every time they cut and the competition responds, they are going to harm their own yields without gaining extra revenue, as in a price war, the operators who have an established customer base are always going to be able to price that bit lower as they already have volume and a much higher load factor.
 

F Great Eastern

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The next drip has been revealed, they are going to let a number of passengers travel on launch day who are first at a bus stop to travel to free, I can only imagine that it's going to be hell down there now at stops where they are sharing same stops and leaving at same times almost.
 

F Great Eastern

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Price War has started.

Aircoach cutting base fare to £6.00 / €7.50 single when purchased online between now and launch day of Dublin Coach's services on Thursday, the discount will be valid on all Aircoach services between now and the end of the year and will undercut Dublin Coach who were going to start with £8/€10 online/offline fare.

Aircoach appear not to be touching on bus prices yet that are quite a bit above Dublin Coach, but since Dublin Coach don't start a service until 23rd March, I don't think that is a big issue, in addition, the fact that the Aircoach offer is valid until Dublin Coach starts, suggests there may well be a further fare revision from the day the competition start.
 

Elwyn

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My parents who are senior citizens get to travel on the train from Belfast to Dublin for free. Senior citizens who live in NI seam to get a lot more free travel than those who live in England.



Alex

The qualifying age for free travel on both trains and buses in NI (for those resident there) is 60. Same as Scotland, whereas in England it’s your pension age I think. Plus it only covers buses in Scotland & England. You have to be 65 or over in NI to get free cross border travel. And in fact you can also travel anywhere in Ireland free too by bus or train. In the Republic I think the qualifying age is 66.
 
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F Great Eastern

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The qualifying age for free travel on both trains and buses in NI (for those resident there) is 60. Same as Scotland, whereas in England it’s your pension age I think. Plus it only covers buses in Scotland & England. You have to be 65 or over in NI to get free cross border travel. And in fact you can also travel anywhere in Ireland free too by bus or train. In the Republic I think the qualifying age is 66.

It's anywhere by bus or train in Ireland as well at any time, however there are a lot more groups than in the UK who are able to get free travel, around 1.2m people qualify for it out of a population of around 4.5m, which is astonishing I know compared to what most people expect, especially when it allows you to travel through the whole country.

It's valid for Irish Rail, Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus, LocalLink, Luas and all commercial routes that start before 2010, so pretty much it covers about 95% of all public transport in the country.
 

TUC

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Do Bus Eireann still have the bizarre position that, although Translink accept either Sterling or Euros on their journeys, Bus Eireann only accept Euros, even though it is a joint service? If so ,accepting both currencies would be a big advantage for their competitors.
 

F Great Eastern

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Do Bus Eireann still have the bizarre position that, although Translink accept either Sterling or Euros on their journeys, Bus Eireann only accept Euros, even though it is a joint service? If so ,accepting both currencies would be a big advantage for their competitors.

Not really a big advantage since Aircoach do that anyway on bus and you can select what currency you purchase in online regardless of where you are originating your journey from - not sure how Dublin Coach are going to do it as they haven't made full details known yet.

Yes - The most annoying thing with BE/TL fares is that if you pay for a ticket in Belfast, Translink set the fare and if you pay for a trip in Dublin, Bus Eireann set the fare in euro and the Bus Eireann fares are considerably more expensive but can be used to travel on the same journeys!

BE Online Fares start at €12.95/€25.90 on bus fare €18/€27
TL Online Fares start at £8.50/£17 on bus fares £14.80/£21.60
 
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Flying Snail

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Do Bus Eireann still have the bizarre position that, although Translink accept either Sterling or Euros on their journeys, Bus Eireann only accept Euros, even though it is a joint service? If so ,accepting both currencies would be a big advantage for their competitors.

That has NEVER been true.

Both operators accept either currency on board all cross-border services.
 

F Great Eastern

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That has NEVER been true.

Both operators accept either currency on board all cross-border services.

Indeed, but the biggest issue is that Bus Eireann's Sterling fares are based on converting Euros into Sterling at a rate which works out more expensive than buying actual Sterling fares from NI as I outlined above.

Realistically there should be a common fare across both operators as it is operated jointly, rather than being charged more by one operator than the other operator charges for the same journey from the same place.
 

TUC

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That has NEVER been true.

Both operators accept either currency on board all cross-border services.
Let me rephase the point. Translink offer Stetling and Euro fares. Bus Eireann only offer Euro fares. See http://www.translink.co.uk/Services...e-X1-X2-Belfast-to-Dublin-Airport-and-Dublin/

It states: 'Sterling and Euro fares are offered on Ulsterbus Cross Border Services...Sterling fares are NOT offered on Bus Eireann services'. It also states that passengers paying in Stetling on Bus Eireann will be given chznge in Euros. The same is not stated for Translink.

That serms a bizarre distinction on a joint service. Why can't be Bus Eireann be equally flexible?
 
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F Great Eastern

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Let me rephase the point. Translink offer Stetling and Euro fares. Bus Eireann only offer Euro fares. See http://www.translink.co.uk/Services...e-X1-X2-Belfast-to-Dublin-Airport-and-Dublin/

It states: 'Sterling and Euro fares are offered on Ulsterbus Cross Border Services...Sterling fares are NOT offered on Bus Eireann services'. It also states that passengers paying in Stetling on Bus Eireann will be given chznge in Euros. The same is not stated for Translink.

That serms a bizarre distinction on a joint service. Why can't be Bus Eireann be equally flexible?

He is right and the website is right, you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

The Translink Sterling fares are not available on Bus Eireann services, they are only offered from Northern Ireland when being purchased from Translink on bus, at ticket office or online from Translink.

However Sterling fares can be bought on bus from Bus Eireann, but these fares are the Bus Eireann Euro fare converted into Sterling which is more expensive than the Translink sterling fares.
 

TUC

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He is right and the website is right, you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

The Translink Sterling fares are not available on Bus Eireann services, they are only offered from Northern Ireland when being purchased from Translink on bus, at ticket office or online from Translink.

However Sterling fares can be bought on bus from Bus Eireann, but these fares are the Bus Eireann Euro fare converted into Sterling which is more expensive than the Translink sterling fares.

Those issues and the requirement that change is given in Euros on Bus Eireann cross-border services, even apparantly for journeys originating in Northern Ireland, create needless disadvantages for them compared to other operators, including Translink. It's practices like that which make their current difficulties unsurprising.
 
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