EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

Tetchytyke · 16 Mar 2017

EM2 said:
The thing is, you're playing the man, not the ball.

Trolling by derailment, that's all it is. And has been on every thread clappers has got involved with.

As for David Davis, it's nice to see that he's "taking back control" with a party that's just been found guilty of widespread election expenses misreporting. Sadly their fine was a measly £70,000, so it will just be chalked up as a cost of doing business. The Tories really are utterly crooked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39289195

RailUK Forums

AlterEgo · 16 Mar 2017

The Met are involved with an ongoing investigation - no point even asking how that's going to turn out.

Trog · 16 Mar 2017

radamfi said:
Not really as the other parties can easily make a coalition without them. They got far fewer seats than the polls predicted.

They are the second biggest party even if they are frozen out and don't so much as get their choice of hot drink voted through in a committee meeting. The other parties are going to be looking over their shoulders and thinking that they need to make sure they cover enough of their agenda to ensure they don't do better next time.

meridian2 · 16 Mar 2017

Arctic Troll said:
Trolling by derailment, that's all it is. And has been on every thread clappers has got involved with.

Any derailment has come from the military grade pedantry over nomenclature. EM2 failed to recall that I wasn't the poster who referred to southern Ireland, but knew exactly what the person meant by the term (an antonym for Northern Ireland). The South, suitably italicised, should have been a cue to its utility.

EM2 · 16 Mar 2017

clappers said:
Any derailment has come from the military grade pedantry over nomenclature. EM2 failed to recall that I wasn't the poster who referred to southern Ireland, but knew exactly what the person meant by the term (an antonym for Northern Ireland). The South, suitably italicised, should have been a cue to its utility.

Interesting to note that you played the man again.

Trog used the term, and later said that they should have used a small 's'.
It's only you that used it after that.
In my six years living in the Republic of Ireland, I never heard or read 'The South' or 'Southern Ireland' used when referring to the Republic, even as an antonym.

AlterEgo · 16 Mar 2017

EM2 said:
Trog used the term, and later said that they should have used a small 's'.
It's only you that used it after that.
In my six years living in the Republic of Ireland, I never heard or read 'The South' or 'Southern Ireland' used when referring to the Republic, even as an antonym.

Some unionists in Northern Ireland use this term. Unionists are Irish people too, and some actively admit and embrace their Irishness - even Ian Paisley (Sr) did, as did people like Edward Carson. Also, in the article I linked to, note Paisley's use of "the South"!

The nomenclature is interesting but ultimately as long as we all understand each other it is best not to make *too* much of a fuss over it.

meridian2 · 16 Mar 2017

AlterEgo said:
The nomenclature is interesting but ultimately as long as we all understand each other it is best not to make *too* much of a fuss over it.

I agree, and have also heard Unionists refer to the south. In a bid for correctness, pedagogy so often misses the blinking point.

EM2 · 16 Mar 2017

AlterEgo said:
The nomenclature is interesting but ultimately as long as we all understand each other it is best not to make *too* much of a fuss over it.

Even though it would be wrong in the eyes of almost everyone in the country that you're discussing?!

Trog · 16 Mar 2017

EM2 said:
Trog used the term, and later said that they should have used a small 's'.

He I am not that fat.

Trog · 16 Mar 2017

EM2 said:
Even though it would be wrong in the eyes of almost everyone in the country that you're discussing?!

Is it only fair as most of the world seems to refer to the UK as England, presumably in an effort to flatter our Scottish friends. :lol:

AlterEgo · 16 Mar 2017

EM2 said:
Even though it would be wrong in the eyes of almost everyone in the country that you're discussing?!

It is fine for unionists to use "the South". Let them do it. Nobody is being hurt. Unionists are Irish people too; a distinctive and integral part of the fabric of the Irish nation no less. In the eyes of the majority of people on the island or Ireland, "Londonderry" is incorrect too, but I also think it's fine for unionists to prefer this term.

In Ireland (and NI in particular), Irish nationalists have learned the hard way that the tyranny of the majority is not a beautiful or useful thing. Therefore, let us not repeat the mistakes of the past by assuming that, in Ireland as a whole, because unionists are a minority, that they or their values are "wrong". A great mistake made by people pushing for unification is that their version of Irishness is the purest or most correct and everyone else must succumb to this.

Ireland has a deep and rich history with a swirling pot of separate narratives, which, in time, I hope is properly recognised by everyone.

EM2 · 16 Mar 2017

AlterEgo said:
Therefore, let us not repeat the mistakes of the past by assuming that, in Ireland as a whole, because unionists are a minority, that they or their values are "wrong".

It is nothing to do with values. The name of the country is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland. It is clearly stated in the constitution of the country.
The Republic of Ireland is the legal description of the state.
Southern Ireland was the official name given to an autonomous Home Rule region (or constituent country) of the United Kingdom. It was established under the Government of Ireland Act 1920 and covered the same territory as the present day Irish state.
Southern Ireland was superseded in law on 6 December 1922 by the establishment of the Irish Free State. The term Southern Ireland does not have any official status today.

Ireland has a deep and rich history with a swirling pot of separate narratives, which, in time, I hope is properly recognised by everyone.

Indeed, and that is why I think it is important to refer to that island and the two jurisdictions of it using the naming conventions that they use themselves.

Howardh · 16 Mar 2017

It's fascinating listening to May. She want's th hold back the Scots referendum till aftre Brexit in order to see how it is, which is fair enough and I agree.

Therefore one assumes the Scots, if they wish, would have an indy referendum as they and the UK hasn't had a good enough deal from the EU.

Whoa...why Scotland? Why can't the rest of us have another referendum to tell the government the result is bobbins and we want to return to, or stay in, the EU?? If everything's hunky-dory after Brexit, then where's the worry that we might not like it and vote against it?

Xenophon PCDGS · 16 Mar 2017

EM2 said:
It is nothing to do with values. The name of the country is Eire, or in the English language, Ireland. It is clearly stated in the constitution of the country.

The Republic of Ireland is the legal description of the state.

I gave my personal use of Eire in my posting # 5860 yesterday.

AlterEgo · 16 Mar 2017

EM2 said:
It is nothing to do with values. The name of the country is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland. It is clearly stated in the constitution of the country.
The Republic of Ireland is the legal description of the state.
Southern Ireland was the official name given to an autonomous Home Rule region (or constituent country) of the United Kingdom. It was established under the Government of Ireland Act 1920 and covered the same territory as the present day Irish state.
Southern Ireland was superseded in law on 6 December 1922 by the establishment of the Irish Free State. The term Southern Ireland does not have any official status today.

Indeed, and that is why I think it is important to refer to that island and the two jurisdictions of it using the naming conventions that they use themselves.

True, but there is no harm in people using "the South", when in England we are happy to refer to Scotland as "north of the Border", or London as "the Smoke", or England as "Blighty", or "Great Britain" when we really mean the whole of the UK (see the Olympic team etc).

Nobody is going to collapse and die because the Ian Paisleys of the world use "the South", or because people like my father (a republican) say "Free State".

The sooner we group the differences in Irish nomenclature into a big pen labelled "Interesting, Fascinating, Discuss, Share" rather than a pen labelled "Wrong, Offensive, Threatening" the better.

Irish unity matters a great deal to me. I do not see Irish unity as simply rubbing out a line on a map, but rather the reconciliantion of all Irish people who can agree via consensus the best route forward. I don't see that telling unionists that They Are Wrong is going to help with that.

EM2 said:
Indeed, and that is why I think it is important to refer to that island and the two jurisdictions of it using the naming conventions that they use themselves.

"They" includes unionists.

The Ireland football and rugby teams include players from Northern Ireland (indeed, NI doesn't have a rugby team...) but the football team is called just "Republic of Ireland", the Irish FA has the exclusive jurisdiction of Northern Ireland, etc, etc etc.

It is no big deal.

Barn · 16 Mar 2017

Howardh said:
Why can't the rest of us have another referendum to tell the government the result is bobbins and we want to return to, or stay in, the EU?? If everything's hunky-dory after Brexit, then where's the worry that we might not like it and vote against it?

It creates a very difficult negotiating position. The EU could just offer an absolutely terrible deal (or virtually no deal at all) in the knowledge that it would be rejected and the Brexit problem would go away.

Howardh · 16 Mar 2017

Barn said:
It creates a very difficult negotiating position. The EU could just offer an absolutely terrible deal (or virtually no deal at all) in the knowledge that it would be rejected and the Brexit problem would go away.

Sounds like a plan

AlterEgo · 16 Mar 2017

Barn said:
It creates a very difficult negotiating position. The EU could just offer an absolutely terrible deal (or virtually no deal at all) in the knowledge that it would be rejected and the Brexit problem would go away.

I'm not sure it would make the problem "go away"!

Barn · 16 Mar 2017

AlterEgo said:
I'm not sure it would make the problem "go away"!

No, you're probably right!

DynamicSpirit · 16 Mar 2017

Barn said:
It creates a very difficult negotiating position. The EU could just offer an absolutely terrible deal (or virtually no deal at all) in the knowledge that it would be rejected and the Brexit problem would go away.

Umm, if the EU wanted to be that bloody-minded, surely they could do that anyway - secure in the knowledge that virtually no deal at all would almost certainly hurt us a lot more than it would hurt them!

Trog · 16 Mar 2017

Howardh said:
Why can't the rest of us have another referendum to tell the government the result is bobbins and we want to return to, or stay in, the EU??

Because triggering article 50 says we are leaving in 2 years. So you could only stay in or re-join if everyone else agreed to cancel the article 50 and pretend it never happened or if everyone else would agree to us rejoining immediately which is probably unlikely. So not much point having a vote that the government would be powerless to act upon.

meridian2 · 16 Mar 2017

AlterEgo said:
The sooner we group the differences in Irish nomenclature into a big pen labelled "Interesting, Fascinating, Discuss, Share" rather than a pen labelled "Wrong, Offensive, Threatening" the better.

I'll have a large pint of that. As I may have said more than once, for those who see everything through the prism of politics, everything is political. However those of us who think politics is institutional hypocrisy and hot air need love and understanding to. Although southern Ireland is not a term I'd use, jumping all over it gives assent to the dividers, not the uniters of people. As a reasonably regular visitor to the island of Ireland, I find the people north and south to be as good as can be found anywhere, and refuse to sit on the linguistic naughty step over someone's idea of branding. I wish no offence and expect none to be taken.

EM2 · 16 Mar 2017

clappers said:
Although southern Ireland is not a term I'd use, jumping all over it gives assent to the dividers, not the uniters of people.

Using it surely gives assent to the dividers, as it is specifically a dividing name? Just use Ireland, you can't get a more united name for the country than that.

Howardh · 16 Mar 2017

Trog said:
Because triggering article 50 says we are leaving in 2 years. So you could only stay in or re-join if everyone else agreed to cancel the article 50 and pretend it never happened or if everyone else would agree to us rejoining immediately which is probably unlikely. So not much point having a vote that the government would be powerless to act upon.

If we had a vote, and we were already out, there's nothing in the rule book says we can't reapply once we've realised what a mistake we've made.

And the EU may well let us back in pretty darned quick, as the terms and conditions would this time really be in their favour; and they would want our cash too.

Although in the event of an awful Brexit which few like (both remainers and leavers alike, maybe for differeing reasons) I think the more likely option would be to plead to join EFTA, accept FoM and slide back into the EU via the back door of the EEA.

We'd turn into Norway.

Er, wasn't that Farage's dream??

WelshBluebird · 16 Mar 2017

Howardh said:
If we had a vote, and we were already out, there's nothing in the rule book says we can't reapply once we've realised what a mistake we've made.

And the EU may well let us back in pretty darned quick, as the terms and conditions would this time really be in their favour; and they would want our cash too.

Of course, if we were to leave and then come back to the EU wanting to rejoin, then we would be incredibly unlikely to get as favourable deal as we already have as existing members. Certainly the various opt outs and vetos we currently have wouldn't be around any more.

Barn · 16 Mar 2017

DynamicSpirit said:
Umm, if the EU wanted to be that bloody-minded, surely they could do that anyway - secure in the knowledge that virtually no deal at all would almost certainly hurt us a lot more than it would hurt them!

I didn't say that the EU wanted to hurt us and I don't think that it does (or at least I don't think that most of the member states do).

If, however, we somehow arranged matters so that we would try to obtain a good deal and then have a referendum offering "take the deal" versus "stay in the EU", why would the EU offer a decent deal? That would just encourage our exit and potentially others' too.

If a referendum was on a "take the deal" or "take WTO" basis, there would be a greater pressure to offer a good deal because that would mean that the EU could enjoy the (not at all inconsiderable) benefit of a good deal with the UK.

meridian2 · 16 Mar 2017

EM2 said:
Using it surely gives assent to the dividers, as it is specifically a dividing name? Just use Ireland, you can't get a more united name for the country than that.

I would but politicians and the media insist on calling one part Northern Ireland, and logic dictates there must a Southern variety. The alternative is the island has a north but no south.

Tim R-T-C · 16 Mar 2017

Howardh said:
If we had a vote, and we were already out, there's nothing in the rule book says we can't reapply once we've realised what a mistake we've made.

And the EU may well let us back in pretty darned quick, as the terms and conditions would this time really be in their favour; and they would want our cash too.

Simple fact - we would be obliged to accept the Euro and join Shengen, this is a requirement for all new members and there is no way we would get an exemption.

Would be funny if within 10 years of the Brexit vote, we were back in and more "European" than ever...

Howardh · 16 Mar 2017

Tim R-T-C said:
Simple fact - we would be obliged to accept the Euro and join Shengen, this is a requirement for all new members and there is no way we would get an exemption.

Would be funny if within 10 years of the Brexit vote, we were back in and more "European" than ever...

Therefore the only way to avoid the future prospect of being in Schengen and joining the Euro is...to stay in the EU. QED!!

EM2 · 16 Mar 2017

clappers said:
I would but politicians and the media insist on calling one part Northern Ireland, and logic dictates there must a Southern variety. The alternative is the island has a north but no south.

There's no Eastern Australia

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