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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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miami

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If a referendum was on a "take the deal" or "take WTO" basis, there would be a greater pressure to offer a good deal because that would mean that the EU could enjoy the (not at all inconsiderable) benefit of a good deal with the UK.

This would be good on paper. In reality the great british public aren't really capable of judging what options there are, we're not experts.

I'd far rather see a meaningful vote in parliament -- they are the experts we pay shed-loads of money to to make these decisions. They however don't want the responsibility, which should have those that voted against the lords ammendment up on treason charges.
 
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NorthernSpirit

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If we had a vote, and we were already out, there's nothing in the rule book says we can't reapply once we've realised what a mistake we've made.

And the EU may well let us back in pretty darned quick, as the terms and conditions would this time really be in their favour; and they would want our cash too.

By the time England, Scotland or Wales decides to rejoin the EU (for whatever insane reason), the social project would no longer exist as the EU would be history.

What people don't seem to understand is that the EU is a test run for a one world government - a New World Order, one of everything including ethnicity (see the Codenhove-Kalergi plan for evidence). If people think North Korea is bad, then here's the fitting proof that it could have happened here.
 

AM9

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By the time England, Scotland or Wales decides to rejoin the EU (for whatever insane reason), the social project would no longer exist as the EU would be history.

What people don't seem to understand is that the EU is a test run for a one world government - a New World Order, one of everything including ethnicity (see the Codenhove-Kalergi plan for evidence). If people think North Korea is bad, then here's the fitting proof that it could have happened here.

If that's your fantasy then fine but it is a bit of a wierd conspiracy theory for an adult to hold, more one for the fervent mind of a young student.
 

AlterEgo

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By the time England, Scotland or Wales decides to rejoin the EU (for whatever insane reason), the social project would no longer exist as the EU would be history.

What people don't seem to understand is that the EU is a test run for a one world government - a New World Order, one of everything including ethnicity (see the Codenhove-Kalergi plan for evidence). If people think North Korea is bad, then here's the fitting proof that it could have happened here.

The only things I can find about the Coudenhove-Kalergi Plan (which I had never heard of before Googling) contained some deeply unpleasant anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
 

EM2

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What people don't seem to understand is that the EU is a test run for a one world government - a New World Order, one of everything including ethnicity (see the Codenhove-Kalergi plan for evidence). If people think North Korea is bad, then here's the fitting proof that it could have happened here.
Wow...
Normally, I'd ask for evidence, but this is so far-out-crazy that I suspect any links supplied would be written by David Icke.
 

meridian2

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The only things I can find about the Coudenhove-Kalergi Plan (which I had never heard of before Googling) contained some deeply unpleasant anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
Most global conspiracy theories are anti-Semitic and completely flaky. I don't believe the EU project is anything of that type, but I do believe it has a federal Europe as an ultimate aim, and its sights set on expanding into regions that have never been considered European. The EU has its origins in idealistic C19th plans for the avoidance of war and universal fellowship (there were many such movements of varying seriousness), but began to be adopted as a serious philosophic model in the ruins of 1945. I think members of the commission are less than transparent regarding their long term political ambitions and have adopted a position of expansion and unification by stealth. I do think the EU wants to move into what was the Ottoman Empire, and sees itself as one of three or four global powers, all of which is too Orwellian for my taste.
 

najaB

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I just remembered I meant to reply to this.
The government are following the lead of the British public, a majority of whose voters wanted Brexit...
A majority of those who voted but only 37% of the overall electorate.
 

meridian2

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I just remembered I meant to reply to this.A majority of those who voted but only 37% of the overall electorate.
Without a compulsory - and arguably undemocratic - voting system, the percentage of eligible vote is meaningless. At no point was any such criterion mentioned in the run up to the referendum, and the turn out was larger than in almost all general elections on which governments are put in place, and at least as valid. I disagree with referendums, they're a mark of political cowardice, but unless government is to be deprived of the option retrospectively by statute, there's no way of nullifying the outcome on the basis of voting numbers.
 

EM2

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Without a compulsory - and arguably undemocratic - voting system, the percentage of eligible vote is meaningless. At no point was any such criterion mentioned in the run up to the referendum
Nor was the criterion of the referendum being legally binding, but they're happy to go along with that.
 

najaB

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I disagree with referendums, they're a mark of political cowardice, but unless government is to be deprived of the option retrospectively by statute, there's no way of nullifying the outcome on the basis of voting numbers.
I don't expect the Government to nullify the referendum but I do object to Mrs May and company constantly referring to 'the will of the people' when the vast majority of the people either didn't express an opinion or actively voted against leaving the EU.
 

Senex

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I don't expect the Government to nullify the referendum but I do object to Mrs May and company constantly referring to 'the will of the people' when the vast majority of the people either didn't express an opinion or actively voted against leaving the EU.
She's hoping that if she says it often enough and loud enough we'll all come to believe it.
 

meridian2

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Nor was the criterion of the referendum being legally binding, but they're happy to go along with that.

What was the purpose of the referendum if not as a decider on EU membership? A very expensive opinion poll? What would the turnout have been if the public were told we're just picking your brains? Everyone knew the country was divided on the issue, that was the nature of the problem. Cameron realised he only needed a one vote majority to secure his political position and silence the numerous euro-sceptics in his party, and he took the risk. A non-legally binding result would have to prove the government in the person of the Prime Minister had no legal right to call a referendum. If the remain camp had won by a tiny majority, would they take that inconclusive win as a clear mandate that the people were not happy with the EU, who would have to deliver on things like immigration before our membership could continue? I rather doubt that.
 
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Barn

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I don't expect the Government to nullify the referendum but I do object to Mrs May and company constantly referring to 'the will of the people' when the vast majority of the people either didn't express an opinion or actively voted against leaving the EU.

Not expressing a view can only mean being content to go along with the majority opinion of those who do vote. It certainly does not constitute some sort of additional moral support for the losing side, even if the losing side is the status quo.

The people were asked their view and the people replied with a request to leave. There's nothing dishonest in saying that.
 

Steveman

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Not expressing a view can only mean being content to go along with the majority opinion of those who do vote. It certainly does not constitute some sort of additional moral support for the losing side, even if the losing side is the status quo.

The people were asked their view and the people replied with a request to leave. There's nothing dishonest in saying that.

This argument from the sore losers about the referendum being undemocratic/advisory/not big enough winning percentage etc. etc. has been played out a million times.
I wouldn't bother replying to them as Remainers will NEVER accept the result because they never expected it.
They were smug before when the vote was expected to go their way and never mentioned advisory/winning margin then.
 

Tetchytyke

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The people were asked their view and the people replied with a request to leave. There's nothing dishonest in saying that.

There's quite a big jump from that to saying "the will of the people" is for Brexit and that anyone who disagrees is a "bitter remoaner" who "needs to accept they lost".

Nobody doubts the outcome of the referendum and what that means, even those of us who have serious issues with how the referendum was conducted *(thanks Dave). But being told that a 35% overall vote share means Hard Brexit is the "will of the people" sticks in the craw.
 

meridian2

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Exactly. Especially since it wasn't clear (and still isn't clear) exactly what Brexit means.
Why is it unclear what Brexit means? The vote was to stay in or leave the EU. Any horse trading has to take that desire as a starting point. If the EU offer compromises on open border immigration and similar key sovereignty issues (and pigs fly), then a second referendum would be appropriate, as they were not on the table when Cameron offered the vote.
 

najaB

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Why is it unclear what Brexit means?
The question was: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

Does that mean I'll need a work permit to get a job in France? Will I be able to go to Italy without a visa? If I buy goods from Germany will I have to pay any extra taxes?

The fact that we're even having a discussion of 'hard' v 'soft' Brexit is proof in itself that there was no clarity.
 

meridian2

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The question was: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

Does that mean I'll need a work permit to get a job in France? Will I be able to go to Italy without a visa? If I buy goods from Germany will I have to pay any extra taxes?

The fact that we're even having a discussion of 'hard' v 'soft' Brexit is proof in itself that there was no clarity.
There is no hard or soft Brexit, only Brexit. If the EU was negotiable on its conditions of membership there may have been a soft Brexit, and probably no Brexit whatsoever, but it's an all or nothing thing. That's the single biggest problem with the European Union, a one size fit all transnational fiscal and legal entity with a keen eye on widening participation. Would be members are signing up for a club with no obvious endgame or limits to its ambition.

The UK is a test case because no country of our size and contributing power has every tried to leave the EU. Nobody has a clue how it will pan out, but no one was owning up to its direction or ultimate thrall, on the record at least, so the point is moot.
 

najaB

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There is no hard or soft Brexit, only Brexit. If the EU was negotiable on its conditions of membership there may have been a soft Brexit, and probably no Brexit whatsoever, but it's an all or nothing thing.
I guess that explains why the UK uses the Euro, is a member of the Schengen Zone and receives no rebate on our contribution to the EU budget.
 

EM2

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Why is it unclear what Brexit means? The vote was to stay in or leave the EU. Any horse trading has to take that desire as a starting point.
So why does there need to be any negotiation at all?
Activate Article 50 and say 'Goodbye EU, we're off'. Then two years later, that's it, we've left. If it's that simple, why didn't we do it?
 

Geezertronic

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IMO the EU are makers of their own doom. If they were flexible then there would not have been a referendum called in the first place. Cameron called the UK out for the referendum and the UK called his bluff and the rest is history
 

EM2

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A third of European firms to cut investment due to Brexit - survey

A third of European companies expect to cut investment spending due to Brexit uncertainties and a tenth of those with operations in the Britain plan to pull out of the country, a survey of 600 euro zone firms, by Swiss bank UBS, found.

Over half the companies said they did not expect Britain leaving the European Union to change their investment plans, but 24 percent anticipated reducing investment "somewhat", and 8 percent "significantly", the survey, published on Friday, showed.

Thirty-nine percent of those said they would modify their investment plans within 6-12 months, and around 17 percent said they would respond immediately.

Of the firms surveyed, in a range of sizes and sectors chosen to represent the European market, 74 percent have operations in Britain.

Of those, a tenth said they planned to relocate all their capacity away from Britain, while 31 percent said they would remove a large amount. A fifth said they would not relocate any capacity, and 3 percent planned to increase UK operations.

Euro zone countries were the most preferred new destinations for nearly half of respondents, while central and Eastern Europe was preferred by 30 percent.
The survey found uncertainty related to Brexit was top of the companies' worry list. A close second was uncertainty over the new U.S. administration, while only 14 percent were most concerned about the French presidential election.

The survey was conducted between Jan. 10 and Feb. 13.
 

miami

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So if we leave the EU and come up with a deal that allows freedom of movement, no tariffs, a membership fee, but no representation in parliament, will those who voted to leave the European Union be happy? Some will (the will of the 17 million will have been enacted). Anything beyond that was not asked on the ballot paper.
 

meridian2

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So why does there need to be any negotiation at all?
Activate Article 50 and say 'Goodbye EU, we're off'. Then two years later, that's it, we've left. If it's that simple, why didn't we do it?
The EU is relatively easy to join, a country needs to meet a few basis economic and social criteria and you're in. By contrast the leaving process is - intentionally I would argue - cryptic and labyrinthine. To all intents it's impossible to get out of the EU. A potential leaver has to satisfy the EU as a whole and the individual nations within it to create the most basic reciprocity. Getting out will be the most almighty mess, as siren voices like Tony Benn have been telling us ever since we joined the Common Market. Is that a good reason to stay with tentacle's embrace? I don't think so. Britain is a test case and the way the EU deals with negotiations will prove it to be a benign and progressive international club, or a vindictive and ideologically lead autocracy. Time will tell which it is.
 

EM2

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By contrast the leaving process is - intentionally I would argue - cryptic and labyrinthine. To all intents it's impossible to get out of the EU.
That, quite frankly, is bilge.
Two years after invoking Article 50, a member state ceases to be a member of the EU, (unless all parties agree otherwise). That means all EU treaties no longer apply to the UK.
So if that's what you want, then there's no need to negotiate anything.
 

meridian2

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That, quite frankly, is bilge.
Two years after invoking Article 50, a member state ceases to be a member of the EU, (unless all parties agree otherwise). That means all EU treaties no longer apply to the UK.
So if that's what you want, then there's no need to negotiate anything.
If the UK wanted to leave Europe, that would be the case. However we only want to leave the EU, which means honouring negotiations agreed to while we were members. We could tell the EU to sing for its supper, but I don't believe Britain has a quarrel with any European nation, merely the way the CM/EEC/EU has panned out. Like I say, we shall see how the negotiations unravel.
 
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