My dad, who does not use trains very often, has had to make a journey from Hull to Thirsk for work purposes. He narrowly missed the 1503 departure to York and was advised by booking office staff to travel to Leeds. I had advised him to get the hull trains service to Donny and travel back to York, which is what the journey planners showed. However the ticket office seemed to think this would be quicker. Having checked the routeing guide it would appear there are no longer mapped routes via Leeds although its clear there once were. I used to do this route now and then a few years ago and it used to be suggested by the journey planners. Curiously there is a negative easement barring passengers with not Doncaster tickets from travelling via Leeds to York, so thus redundant easement would also suggest it was once a permitted route. I'll see his he gets on, but does anyone think he will have any trouble? I will probably write an appropriate foi request to daft when I get back from work.
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Hull to Thirsk via Leeds
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You cannot travel from Hull to Thirsk via Leeds on a single Hull to Thirsk ticket.
Hull is a routing point.
The only appopriate routing point for Thirsk is York.
Maps for Hull to York are DS, HA, YA - none allow travel via Leeds without doubling back
No easements apply.
Hull is a routing point.
The only appopriate routing point for Thirsk is York.
Maps for Hull to York are DS, HA, YA - none allow travel via Leeds without doubling back
No easements apply.
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DaiGog
Member
Fujitsu Journey Planner (RJIS) also permits Hull - Doncaster - York - Thirsk, but not via Leeds.
I know you can't but sure it used to be allowed. He was given the advice by Hull ticket office and had no problem using his ticket this way, which suggests some customary acceptance even if its not official. As I say, I shall be writing to ask why this route is no longer allowed. Does anyone know if it was a permitted route in the first routeing guide/pre privatisation?
Incidentally, as far as doubling back goes I thought there was a permitted double back between micklefield and Leeds under the group stations rule, at least previously. However now it is impossible to trace a map from hull to Leeds without first going thru Doncaster or York, therefore no longer valid.
Incidentally, as far as doubling back goes I thought there was a permitted double back between micklefield and Leeds under the group stations rule, at least previously. However now it is impossible to trace a map from hull to Leeds without first going thru Doncaster or York, therefore no longer valid.
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Hull to Thirsk is not valid via Micklefield. The latter station is part of the Leeds Group and so doubling back within the Leeds Group is allowed on journeys where Leeds is on the permitted route, but as we've said in this case it is not.
Thanks for all your help. I am sure there once was such a route, or at least the journey planners used to show this route unless my memory is playing tricks on me. I have submitted a Freedom of Information act request to daft to find out if and when this route ceased to be valid.
Yes it was.
kieron
Established Member
There's an unofficial web site with old versions of the routeing guide here. The 2013-02-14 version of the permitted list route includes TP as an option for Hull-York, a map which only permitted travel via Leeds. This shows that someone wanted Hull-York to be valid that way at some point. The route was dropped in the following version, and the route via Leeds certainly hasn't been on a map since 2014-04-16.
The 1996-08-19 version just gives ER for this route, a map which included routes via Leeds, as well as ones which avoid it.
Looking elsewhere on the site, Hull-York used to have "direct" fares, which were later replaced with "not via Doncaster" ones in 2009. I haven't checked how old the easement is, but it may have been something to do with that change. Hull-Thirsk has only had "any permitted" tickets.
Just get a couple of FOI requests in:
One to the DfT asking if they gave permission for the via Leeds mapped routes to be removed, and if they did, why did they do so? If they did not, then what action have they taken and will they be taking against ATOC?
And another to Passenger Focus asking if they were consulted, and what their response was.
You could use http://whatdotheyknow.com/ if you wish.
I suspect DfT will say "We were not asked" in which case it's an unlawful change.
Let us know what response you get
One to the DfT asking if they gave permission for the via Leeds mapped routes to be removed, and if they did, why did they do so? If they did not, then what action have they taken and will they be taking against ATOC?
And another to Passenger Focus asking if they were consulted, and what their response was.
You could use http://whatdotheyknow.com/ if you wish.
I suspect DfT will say "We were not asked" in which case it's an unlawful change.
Let us know what response you get
I've received a response from the DfT as follows:
Have to say I'm rather disappointed, the questions seem rather glossed over, especially since other forum members have stated it was valid in the original routeing guide and at the time of privatisation. If they don't know about it though surely the change was illegal as they weren't told, funny they don't seem too bothered about that. Odd that they suggest invoking the disputed route procedure with Northern, not TPE. Any advice on how further to progress with this?
Have to say I'm rather disappointed, the questions seem rather glossed over, especially since other forum members have stated it was valid in the original routeing guide and at the time of privatisation. If they don't know about it though surely the change was illegal as they weren't told, funny they don't seem too bothered about that. Odd that they suggest invoking the disputed route procedure with Northern, not TPE. Any advice on how further to progress with this?
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Any removal of permitted routes must be authorised by DfT for the removal to be lawful.
Therefore any attempt to deny travel via this previously permitted route would not appear to be lawful.
You could now write to ATOC insisting on the reinstatement of these routes and also to the DfT thanking them for confirmation that they did not give permission for the withdrawal of the routes and for enforcement action to be taken against ATOC.
I do agree it is worth contacting both Northern and TPE, and I'd add VTEC. You could ask each if they requested the change and , if not, were they consulted, and would they consider asking ATOC to reinstate it.
You may want to write to any relevant MPs about this matter.
Therefore any attempt to deny travel via this previously permitted route would not appear to be lawful.
You could now write to ATOC insisting on the reinstatement of these routes and also to the DfT thanking them for confirmation that they did not give permission for the withdrawal of the routes and for enforcement action to be taken against ATOC.
I do agree it is worth contacting both Northern and TPE, and I'd add VTEC. You could ask each if they requested the change and , if not, were they consulted, and would they consider asking ATOC to reinstate it.
You may want to write to any relevant MPs about this matter.
Thankyou for your prompt reply, I will probably have written to ATOC and a reply to the DfT by Monday evening at the latest (my next day off work) if not earlier, I'll have a think about wording. I was thinking maybe of contacting the Thirsk and Northallerton station users group, something which I know exists but have not yet been involved with as this often has local politicians and TOC reps present and maybe they will take an interest?
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