Future of Class 707

absolutelymilk · 27 Mar 2017

Mod Note: Please use this thread to discuss the future of the 707s in light of the new First/MTR franchise award. If you want to talk about the introduction of the 707s into service then please use the existing thread for this.

As the new SWT franchise thread is discussing, First are saying that every train will have a toilet, which presumably means that the 707s will be replaced to allow a uniform metro fleet. Where would they go next? Would Southeastern want them?

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SpacePhoenix · 27 Mar 2017

absolutelymilk said:
As the new SWT franchise thread is discussing, First are saying that every train will have a toilet, which presumably means that the 707s will be replaced to allow a uniform metro fleet. Where would they go next? Would Southeastern want them?

More likely they'll have toilets installed. All the wiring and plumbing is probably already in place for toilet modules to be installed and connected up

Domh245 · 27 Mar 2017

absolutelymilk said:
As the new SWT franchise thread is discussing, First are saying that every train will have a toilet, which presumably means that the 707s will be replaced to allow a uniform metro fleet. Where would they go next? Would Southeastern want them?

I suppose it'd be a sensible place for them to go - although i cant remember if they were trying to move away from 5 cars on the metro services. Equally, they could have pantographs fitted and sent somewhere under the wires, but there is a surplus of 25kV units available so that'd be unlikely

GW43125 · 27 Mar 2017

SpacePhoenix said:
More likely they'll have toilets installed. All the wiring and plumbing is probably already in place for toilet modules to be installed and connected up

If they want toilets on all trains, they'll have to do something about the 458s! :lol:

Class455 · 27 Mar 2017

absolutelymilk said:
As the new SWT franchise thread is discussing, First are saying that every train will have a toilet, which presumably means that the 707s will be replaced to allow a uniform metro fleet. Where would they go next? Would Southeastern want them?

What a waste of money! They're brand new and theres already talk of them being replaced! Surely they can have toilets retrofitted?

GW43125 · 27 Mar 2017

Class455 said:
What a waste of money! They're brand new and theres already talk of them being replaced! Surely they can have toilets retrofitted?

All the pipes etc are in place, just need to rip out a few seats. However it'll knacker the capacity.

infobleep · 27 Mar 2017

GW43125 said:
All the pipes etc are in place, just need to rip out a few seats. However it'll knacker the capacity.

I always felt all metro services should have toilets. Nice to see a TOC that agrees with me. I had wanted Stagecoach to win the franchise again but I am pleasantly surprised the First/MTR want to introduce toilets on every service bar Island Line.

I'm sure if I'd suggested introducing toilets I'd be told it would be expensive to retrofit and the capacity would be an issue, so it won't happen. Besides stations have loos.

Clearly First/MTR disagree. Besides I wouldn't call parts of the Cobham line metro. I admit the 707s weren't planned to go via the Cobham line.

Suraggu · 27 Mar 2017

Class 345 or 'Civity' anyone?

Domh245 · 27 Mar 2017

Suraggu said:
Class 345 or 'Civity' anyone?

Not going to be a 345, although it could be some other Aventra, but I'd be doubtful given the volume of orders currently at Derby. Could well be civities.

Suraggu · 27 Mar 2017

Domh245 said:
Not going to be a 345, although it could be some other Aventra, but I'd be doubtful given the volume of orders currently at Derby. Could well be civities.

I had forgotten the name for the type of training , many thanks.

D365 · 27 Mar 2017

First like Desiros, don't they? Why wouldn't they simply order more Class 707s?

Bungle965 · 27 Mar 2017

SpacePhoenix said:
More likely they'll have toilets installed. All the wiring and plumbing is probably already in place for toilet modules to be installed and connected up

The 707s are going, they are not part of First/MTR plans, one wonders where they will end up. The requirement for them to be AC OHLE capable as well as DC makes them suitable to more franchises which is good.
Sam

59CosG95 · 27 Mar 2017

bungle965 said:
The 707s are going, they are not part of First/MTR plans, one wonders where they will end up. The requirement for them to be AC OHLE capable as well as DC makes them suitable to more franchises which is good.
Sam

Crossrail 2 would be a likely place for them, as they've already been tested on the existing SWML lines west of Wimbledon (i'm fairly sure they have at least!), and are AC capable; then again, TfL will probably not want 5-car sets.
Perhaps the Coastway Lines, as the 313s are getting fairly long in the tooth now, and capacity down in Sussex would be welcomed.

Bungle965 · 27 Mar 2017

59CosG95 said:
Crossrail 2 would be a likely place for them, as they've already been tested on the existing SWML lines west of Wimbledon (i'm fairly sure they have at least!), and are AC capable; then again, TfL will probably not want 5-car sets.
Perhaps the Coastway Lines, as the 313s are getting fairly long in the tooth now, and capacity down in Sussex would be welcomed.

I would have thought that the Coastway line would be a prime candidate for the 455s which are going from SWT, having only just been Re-Tractioned.
Sam

ainsworth74 · 27 Mar 2017

59CosG95 said:
Crossrail 2 would be a likely place for them, as they've already been tested on the existing SWML lines west of Wimbledon (i'm fairly sure they have at least!), and are AC capable; then again, TfL will probably not want 5-car sets.

Considering Crossrail 2 is more than a decade away and the 707s are going to be surplus a while before then I'm not sure that's going to work!

D365 · 27 Mar 2017

Are they literally just being got rid of because they don't have toilets? Or is there some other issue?

Domh245 · 27 Mar 2017

D365 said:
Are they literally just being got rid of because they don't have toilets? Or is there some other issue?

I'd imagine because First have got a large order lined up that isn't Desiro Cities for whatever reason (Don't like desiros, got a better price elsewhere etc), so they decided to replace the 707s as well for fleet similarity and all of the benefits that come with that.

swt_passenger · 27 Mar 2017

D365 said:
Are they literally just being got rid of because they don't have toilets? Or is there some other issue?

They don't meet the 0.25 sqm per person standing capacity requirements now expected by DfT for modern inner suburban stock. I put this in the main franchise thread earlier:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2936620&postcount=576

infobleep · 27 Mar 2017

If they scrap them, that would be a colossal waste of money. Surely they wouldn't do that at a time when they want the rail industry to cut costs and save money.

D365 · 27 Mar 2017

infobleep said:
If they scrap them, that would be a colossal waste of money. Surely they wouldn't do that at a time when they want the rail industry to cut costs and save money.

Who is 'they'?

Mikey C · 27 Mar 2017

swt_passenger said:
They don't meet the 0.25 sqm per person standing capacity requirements now expected by DfT for modern inner suburban stock. I put this in the main franchise thread earlier:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2936620&postcount=576

Thus is what puzzles me. I assume their interior must be similar to that of the 700s (and indeed 717s), so do these other Desiro Cities meet the 0.25 sqm per person requirement, and dwell time requirements?

If they can't be modifed, then surely they'd be no good for other inner London routes (e.g. to replace the South Eastern networkers) either...

Metobusfan · 27 Mar 2017

59CosG95 said:
Crossrail 2 would be a likely place for them, as they've already been tested on the existing SWML lines west of Wimbledon (i'm fairly sure they have at least!), and are AC capable; then again, TfL will probably not want 5-car sets.
Perhaps the Coastway Lines, as the 313s are getting fairly long in the tooth now, and capacity down in Sussex would be welcomed.

be nice to see them on the south coast

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godfreycomplex · 27 Mar 2017

Rarely one to speculate on this kind of thing; but I reckon they'll go to GTR (exactly where I'm not sure); with a consequential cascade that gets rid of the 313s and sends the 455s/some 377s to the coast to replace them.

gage75 · 27 Mar 2017

How close in spec are they to the 717's for the Goblin, how quickly can they be retrofitted for OHL running??

Class455 · 27 Mar 2017

godfreycomplex said:
Rarely one to speculate on this kind of thing; but I reckon they'll go to GTR (exactly where I'm not sure); with a consequential cascade that gets rid of the 313s and sends the 455s/some 377s to the coast to replace them.

Or they could go to Thameslink metro services(Sutton Loop) to supplement 700's?

222ben · 27 Mar 2017

Send some 707s to Northern, use them to replace 319s once toilets and a pantograph have been fitted. You'd need to respec the stopboards on the routes to 5 car though.

Clip · 27 Mar 2017

infobleep said:
If they scrap them, that would be a colossal waste of money. Surely they wouldn't do that at a time when they want the rail industry to cut costs and save money.

Im sorry but did you really think that the industry would just 'scrap' brand new trains not yet entered into service?:roll:

Bungle965 · 27 Mar 2017

222ben said:
Send some 707s to Northern, use them to replace 319s once toilets and a pantograph have been fitted. You'd need to respec the stopboards on the routes to 5 car though.

Not to mention the fact that 5 car trains won't fit on many platforms.
Sam

phoenixcronin · 27 Mar 2017

gage75 said:
How close in spec are they to the 717's for the Goblin, how quickly can they be retrofitted for OHL running??

Umm, the Goblin will use 710s (Aventras), not 717s

adc82140 · 27 Mar 2017

Idle speculation- 707s to GTR, replacing 387s on Great Northern for fleet commonality and capacity enhancement (some 365s staying for 12 car diagrams) 387s to c2c (or are they commited to "brand new" trains?)

Future of Class 707

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