Presumably because, at 20 coaches long, Cricklewood is the only place you can run to and not need to worry about the length of the train whilst you are uncoupling the units. I can't think of too many other locations on the Thameslink route where you are going to be able to recess a 20 coach train, certainly not at Blackfriars, Herne Hill, Bellingham etc and presumably there isn't authority to recess a 20-coach train on the four track section between Blackfriars and Loughborough Junction and leave it there until the traffic dies down.
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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress
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Presumably because, at 20 coaches long, Cricklewood is the only place you can run to and not need to worry about the length of the train whilst you are uncoupling the units. I can't think of too many other locations on the Thameslink route where you are going to be able to recess a 20 coach train, certainly not at Blackfriars, Herne Hill, Bellingham etc and presumably there isn't authority to recess a 20-coach train on the four track section between Blackfriars and Loughborough Junction and leave it there until the traffic dies down.
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AIUI, the rule book is clear that if unit (with brakes) is hauling another (without) then it is limited to 5mph*. And I presume this is what happened in this case, ie the brakes were mechanically released isolated on the failure, and the rescue unit then hauled it.
I'm not aware of any train on the main line network being allowed to run without any brakes at all, at least, not intentionally.
* I do think that 5mph is way too conservative given modern train braking ability. 20mph would be more reasonable, except perhaps on steep downhill gradients such as those seen in, err, the Thameslink core.
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4-COR 3142
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Saw 700 115 in Littlehampton this afternoon, presumably on test.
spark001uk
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spark001uk
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Yes, it ran Three Bridges - Littlehampton - Three Bridges, on 3Z60. Then again on 3Z62. Stopped most stations as well.
4-COR 3142
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Thanks for that, did it run via Mid-Sussex or Hove?
spark001uk
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OFFDN
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Yes, performing operational tests on all platforms. Similar to occur next Sunday via Worthing if what I have been told is still going ahead.
Not their first visit down that way (last time was early February overnight I think), but most certainly first daytime visit.
BingBong50
Member
Are there no compatible locos that could do a recovery in this situation rather than having to use another 700?
It has already been discussed further up thread the limited number of locos that can work through the core and why the use of them are far from desirable.
Sam
spark001uk
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To be fair I've just searched with a number of keywords and not found it. Not in this thread.
4-COR 3142
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Thanks again, I saw 3Z62 which was running to time.
4-COR 3142
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Fingers crossed one makes it to Worthing next weekend, any updates nearer the time would be appreciated.
westcoaster
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The only locos cleared for the core are class 73's and 31/1's
Apologies I thought it was in this thread, however it ended up being the the main thread relating to the 700 failing in the core.
I have found the posts which list why loco rescue is less than desirable.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2934042&postcount=24
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2934618&postcount=41
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2935202&postcount=54
Credit to the respective posters.
Sam
Sam
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That's wouldn't help. Behind a failed train in the core will be one or more class 700s held up. In the peak, there will be a full service running in the other direction meaning that weaving around the failed train via crossovers would cause disruption for hours.
Even if a rescue loco was held just south of Blackfriars and just north of Kentish Town, there might be three or four trains full of passengers between them and the failed train.
Once the technique of pushing a failed train out is fully developed, including methods of releasing locked brakes etc., the practice will be seen as the quickest way of clearing the route. The fact that the class was designed to deal with pushing disabled trains, means that an eight-car class 700/0 (with over 4000hp available) can push a 12-car 700/1 up the 1:29 slopes in the core. There is no more practical method to clear such a busy route.
Once old DC-only trains are no longer sent to the bay platforms at Blackfriars, chages could be made to put OLE right through to Blackfriars or if changeover on the move is workable, beyond.
Having travelled in today on a train with the Passenger Info screens displaying "Train not in service" (or something like that) 2 questions spring to mind:
1. Does the driver know that the screens are not working properly?
2. Can the screens be turned off by the driver?
I appreciate that they might be busy doing other things most of the time
but as we were stuck at a station for some while when a passenger was unwell I was beginning to think that the train really had been taken out of service!
1. Does the driver know that the screens are not working properly?
2. Can the screens be turned off by the driver?
I appreciate that they might be busy doing other things most of the time
but as we were stuck at a station for some while when a passenger was unwell I was beginning to think that the train really had been taken out of service!I was more concerned about the details of the operation as in how to make it work well rather than whether there is an official authorised procedure. Clearly the events of last week mean that the either the practice and/or some aspect of the trains' operation needs a bit of hohning if they form a major part in the recovery of services when such a failure arises in the core.
One of the first thing Drivers said when they saw these were fixed 8 or 12 was that they will break down and need assistance to the (front or rear) Of course we get told that these units will not break, have built in redundancies, can provide their own assistance, have various backed up systems, extensive testing etc etc. Then, it breaks and needs assistance. One of the things I wasn't expecting was that they removed the ability to simply couple up. I haven't even been shown how to do it. Just a video walkthrough. That seems like a backwards step to me. Don't get me started about the shoes !
We are saying the same about 24tph through the core. Again, its got plenty of pathway and still not at capacity, there are crossovers, its bi-di, better units to deal with capacity etc etc. One of the reasons it breaks so quickly is that the units bunch up behind each other in minutes. PoSA's are brilliant for keeping it moving but it does the same. It pushes the service closer together. Crossovers go out the window as there is a unit oncoming in the other direction.
Personally I think the entire core is FUBAR.
We are saying the same about 24tph through the core. Again, its got plenty of pathway and still not at capacity, there are crossovers, its bi-di, better units to deal with capacity etc etc. One of the reasons it breaks so quickly is that the units bunch up behind each other in minutes. PoSA's are brilliant for keeping it moving but it does the same. It pushes the service closer together. Crossovers go out the window as there is a unit oncoming in the other direction.
Personally I think the entire core is FUBAR.
That surprises me that drivers (or other relevant staff) don't seem to have been trained in what is a basic part of a recovery operation. On the other hand, given the comments here about lack of attention to training being typical of GTR's approach, maybe i'm not surprised. As regards the actual ability of the trains to couple up, I assume that the Dellner couplings give mechanical integrity, what is the issue beyond that?
The current situation is, hopefully, not representative of the fully rolled-out TL programme, i.e, all trains will be 700s and they will all boperating under ATO which should regulate them both in the core and at critical points approaching the core. Overall, this should allow better control of their positions in times of problems when opportunities to redirect trains and/or passengers exist.
Time will tell.
Attaching a train is pretty basic and we can all do it so training isn't really that relevant. The problem with the 700 is that it really isn't supposed to be coupled. The units are designed to self recover and they don't expect to couple them together unless in an extreme situation, like what happened. If everything worked as expected then I doubt I would ever couple one, or at least so they thought.
Whoever designed the coupler didn't plan ahead. It's not a standard delner and your gonna need a fitter. The process to couple on is overly complex. I have no idea why. Sadly, anything we say against them gets taken the wrong way. Allow it to couple normally and the situation that happened is dramatically reduced.
Same head in the sand mentality. Time will tell. It will break and break badly. Because of the increase in services means it will happen quicker and with increased consequence.
ATO will be interesting but needs to react to anything happening sooner. As far as I can tell it will still very much stack trains up. I don't see anything changing in that respect. You would need to constantly monitor the crossovers and keep them free and having entry and exit to each crossover clear. It still needs to keep the points free at the point of disruption or your not going round any problems.
SpacePhoenix
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Can the electrical block of the coupler be retracted? Whenever i've watch any of the traction training videos that people have posted on youtube, they always say to only couple mechanically for assisting another unit
No
Yes.
There is a button the PIS that does this. However, I found this out by accident. We were given no training whatsoever on the PIS (which itself seems surprisingly budget). I asked a trainee today who has just done his 700 course if he was told anything about it but he said not.
I can't find any way to return to the standard 'stopping pattern type menu' after having sent a pre-recorded message. Maybe others can!
Supercoss
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If a class 700 is 'stalled' without traction power supply, be it overhead line or third rail the critical part as soon as possible is to preserve battery life - unless this is done 'smartish' - after around 90 minutes (for a new unit,less for older!) no traction supply is still available the entire train will 'fail safe' and the braking system will lock on.
Nothing (not even another 700 coupling up) can release them until sufficient battery power is available. Another 700 can not supply battery voltage to stalled set.
So, what to do - If traction power supply becomes available, couple another 700 on then blow air into stalled set to release parking brake then push or pull at 5mph with a rider in the stalled set to activate parking brake should any accidental separation occur.
If traction power supply not available (wires down, con rail displaced,emergency switch off etc) then a suitable locomotive with emergency Dellner coupler can be used, 'rescue air pipe' is connected between stalled train and loco main res - agin, enough air to release parking brakes, haul or push out at 5mph as an unbraked 'swinger' to clear the line.
Whilst 'any' loco can be used currently only class 31 ,the one remaining 33/2 mainline registered and any sub class of 73 may operate on the 'Moorgate lines' & 'Snow hill lines' between Kentish Town & Blackfriars BUT the overhead line must be switched off due to restricted clearance where ole exists.
A 12 car 700 weighs 400 tonne so any attempt to drag as a swinger must be assessed on location and gradient -v- Brake force of assisting loco(s).
Plans a rapidly being made to gauge clear class 67s for the route, until then a pair of suitable locomotives are to be 'acquired' to perform the role withing gauge restricted area fitted with drop head Dellner couplers.
Nothing (not even another 700 coupling up) can release them until sufficient battery power is available. Another 700 can not supply battery voltage to stalled set.
So, what to do - If traction power supply becomes available, couple another 700 on then blow air into stalled set to release parking brake then push or pull at 5mph with a rider in the stalled set to activate parking brake should any accidental separation occur.
If traction power supply not available (wires down, con rail displaced,emergency switch off etc) then a suitable locomotive with emergency Dellner coupler can be used, 'rescue air pipe' is connected between stalled train and loco main res - agin, enough air to release parking brakes, haul or push out at 5mph as an unbraked 'swinger' to clear the line.
Whilst 'any' loco can be used currently only class 31 ,the one remaining 33/2 mainline registered and any sub class of 73 may operate on the 'Moorgate lines' & 'Snow hill lines' between Kentish Town & Blackfriars BUT the overhead line must be switched off due to restricted clearance where ole exists.
A 12 car 700 weighs 400 tonne so any attempt to drag as a swinger must be assessed on location and gradient -v- Brake force of assisting loco(s).
Plans a rapidly being made to gauge clear class 67s for the route, until then a pair of suitable locomotives are to be 'acquired' to perform the role withing gauge restricted area fitted with drop head Dellner couplers.
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westcoaster
Established Member
No
Yes.
There is a button the PIS that does this. However, I found this out by accident. We were given no training whatsoever on the PIS (which itself seems surprisingly budget). I asked a trainee today who has just done his 700 course if he was told anything about it but he said not.
I can't find any way to return to the standard 'stopping pattern type menu' after having sent a pre-recorded message. Maybe others can!
I can,
Press F1
Scroll down to pre recorded messages,
Scroll to clear down 2, accept, press play
You can release the parking brakes manually. It's not that hard.
asylumxl
Established Member
Am I right in thinking you're a driver for Thameslink? If I remember rightly, I find it interesting that you hold the same opinion as many regular users of the route whom post on this forum. It seems to fall on deaf ears, both on this forum and when talking to anyone involved in the Thameslink Programme.
If not, disregard this message.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
As a mear passenger this is making somewhat depressing reading. I thought these units and the whole 24TPH were crap ideas but to my mind this just proves it. Sure they can carry a lot of people but the teething issues should surely be over by now?
I've heard nothing but laughs regarding the 24tph through the core. From BOTH sides of the river. We drive it and know how quickly things turn. Currently the timings can be quite generous in paces and you can make time back through the core. I know it's all theoretically possible and day to day it should work as well as the railway usually does but its on a knife edge. Even now the slightest nudge and kablamo !
Even the smallest of errors breaks it. I've been ECS in front of a stopper and parked on Blackfriars for 20 minutes. Failed and then run into Smithfield, another huge delay, run into Smithfield to terminate due to late running; resulting in numerous cancelations because myself and the unit were displaced. Broken pantograph leading to electrical failure totally stopping the job for some time. I've been in the most severe congestion in my entire railway career through the core down from XX. We run a service daily which is cancelled from St Panc almost daily, again due to delays and congestion.
Remember the flooding at Farringdon ? Just another example of how the service suffers. More trains just means more problems.
Increasing trains, complicating the service with multiple destinations through the core, increased passenger numbers.. Yeah its really gonna work smoothly.
ATO... Fook they can't even get SDO to work properly.
We mostly find the whole thing laughable.
Feel free to call me a negative nancy, doomsayer, shroud waver, etc. etc but nothing about the entire project seems credible. I'm yet to be convinced. I cant wait for the new bottle neck through Ewer Street to take its strangle hold and knock on to Thameslink through London Bridge.
Captain Blackadders right hand
Those who know the layout and have followed the Thameslink project will understand. Pushing services through the core just doesn't make sense. Force people to terminate at Blackfriars and change trains. Ignore the protests and prevent a bottleneck before it happens.
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