Class 88 UKDual & EuroDual

Bertie the bus · 5 Apr 2017

It is running today, though as a light engine. It has set off from Crewe and due Preston at 12:08:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00504/2017/04/05/advanced

RailUK Forums

sluf · 5 Apr 2017

ok brilliant - lunch on station it is!

leomartin125 · 5 Apr 2017

ac6000cw said:
According to RTT, today's southbound run is cancelled - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00474/2017/04/05/advanced - as is the return - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00475/2017/04/05/advanced

The links to RTT in the earlier post are only for the Monday trips - you need to look on RTT for the equivalent trips on the other days this week.

However, it is running as a light engine test instead:

Outbound:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00503/2017/04/05/advanced

Return:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00504/2017/04/05/advanced

LNW-GW Joint · 5 Apr 2017

I haven't seen flashing headlights before, as shown in some of the videos.
Is this a new operational requirement?
Or is it just a "feature" (or a video artefact)?
Impressive that it's out in regular traffic; the traction package must be OK.

Darandio · 5 Apr 2017

It's just the LED effect which is to do with the difference in frequency between LED light and the video capture. The lights aren't actually flashing if you view them at source.

Andyjs247 · 5 Apr 2017

Not sure if this has been asked already but can a 68 and 88 work in multiple?

Bungle965 · 5 Apr 2017

Andyjs247 said:
Not sure if this has been asked already but can a 68 and 88 work in multiple?

Yes I believe that they can.
Sam

TimboM · 5 Apr 2017

LNW-GW Joint said:
I haven't seen flashing headlights before, as shown in some of the videos.
Is this a new operational requirement?
Or is it just a "feature" (or a video artefact)?
Impressive that it's out in regular traffic; the traction package must be OK.

The lights aren't actually flashing in 'real life' - it's something to do with the new-style LED(?) lights and the way cameras pick them up. I'm sure someone can explain the exact reason, but something to do with the different frequency/way the light is emitted and the frame speed of the camera used to film them.

Bit like when it appears wheels are moving backwards on a car driving forwards in a film, or rotor blades on a helicopter are moving very slowly...

Also, the 88 isn't in regular traffic just yet - this week it's on test runs usually to Crewe and back - some of these are 'loaded' test runs with a c.1,500 tonne rake of ballast wagons (plus a 68 tucked in behind as 'insurance' but not doing any of the hauling as far as I know). This is what's in the videos folk have posted.

Hope that clarifies a couple of things you've seen in the videos.

furnessvale · 5 Apr 2017

bungle965 said:
Yes I believe that they can.
Sam

That would probably be the best end result.

In all but the most extreme conditions a single 88 could manage effectively on the northern fells but a 68 in tow could assist it out of trouble, say from a dead stand at Scout Green in a blizzard.

LNW-GW Joint · 5 Apr 2017

TimboM said:
Also, the 88 isn't in regular traffic just yet - this week it's on test runs usually to Crewe and back - some of these are 'loaded' test runs with a c.1,500 tonne rake of ballast wagons (plus a 68 tucked in behind as 'insurance' but not doing any of the hauling as far as I know). This is what's in the videos folk have posted.
Hope that clarifies a couple of things you've seen in the videos.

Yes, it did look very odd, but I see it's a digital artefact, like photographing PIS displays and getting next to nothing because of the flicker!

By normal traffic, I mean not under possession.
That means NR must be happy with the interference issues that have plagued many new electric types (including IEP), at least up to a certain level of power on the 88.
Class 345 is another one which seems to have appeared out on the network in short order.
I'd be interested to know which traction packages they are using.

87015 · 5 Apr 2017

Whilst I must emphasise the IF - Reported to have been sent to the rescue of yet another stricken GBRf 92 around Shap... If correct and it can get the China clay tanks, a dead 92 and possible a dead 66 moving from a standing start then that's not shabby - unless it was over the top and going downhill!!

37038 · 5 Apr 2017

took 6S94 back to Grayrigg loop. 88 returned KM light engine.

DRS 66 hired to take 6S94 to carlisle yard, dead 66 will run round 92 and continue forward

Sunbird24 · 5 Apr 2017

LED lights do flicker but at a very high rate which the human eye cannot normally perceive due to the human eye's persistance of vision. LEDs operate by a very rapid pulsing of power. The same reason old cine films appear to flicker (hence the old term "going to the flicks") as the frame rate was only 16 fps, later 24 fps to reduce the flicker. Modern videos are in the order of 48 fps.

sonorguy · 5 Apr 2017

Sunbird24 said:
LED lights do flicker but at a very high rate which the human eye cannot normally perceive due to the human eye's persistance of vision. LEDs operate by a very rapid pulsing of power. The same reason old cine films appear to flicker (hence the old term "going to the flicks") as the frame rate was only 16 fps, later 24 fps to reduce the flicker. Modern videos are in the order of 48 fps.

It's very apparent if you watch any of the UK motoring shows, Top Gear, Grand Tour etc, especially if they show a car in slo-mo that has LED lights, the flashing is obvious. In that setting it's an effect utilised intentionally.

rebmcr · 5 Apr 2017

If you look very closely you can notice the frame tearing -- exhibited as horizontal boundaries within the flicker.

furnessvale · 5 Apr 2017

87015 said:
Whilst I must emphasise the IF - Reported to have been sent to the rescue of yet another stricken GBRf 92 around Shap... If correct and it can get the China clay tanks, a dead 92 and possible a dead 66 moving from a standing start then that's not shabby - unless it was over the top and going downhill!!

As you say, possible IFs.

I doubt the conditions were the extremes that twin 68s or 86s have to be capable of handling before being let loose on the northern fells.

There is always the possibility the assisting 68 was fired up.

Nevertheless, I am sure the 88 will be a very capable machine, as long as it is not oversold.

Spartacus · 5 Apr 2017

37038 beat me to it!

boby32 · 5 Apr 2017

A video showing the delivery of

88007, 88010, 88009 and 88006.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu9OIdF-ulk

TimboM · 6 Apr 2017

furnessvale said:
As you say, possible IFs.

I doubt the conditions were the extremes that twin 68s or 86s have to be capable of handling before being let loose on the northern fells.

There is always the possibility the assisting 68 was fired up.

Nevertheless, I am sure the 88 will be a very capable machine, as long as it is not oversold.

I thought the 88 was running light engine today, in which case there wouldn't be the assisting 68? Appears the 88 was just used to pull the china clay train back into the Grayrigg loop (presumably it's downhill in that direction). Would be interesting to see if it could manage a nigh-on 2,000 tonne train up Shap, but we'll have to wait for it to complete acceptance tests before we find that out...

furnessvale · 6 Apr 2017

TimboM said:
I thought the 88 was running light engine today, in which case there wouldn't be the assisting 68? Appears the 88 was just used to pull the china clay train back into the Grayrigg loop (presumably it's downhill in that direction). Would be interesting to see if it could manage a nigh-on 2,000 tonne train up Shap, but we'll have to wait for it to complete acceptance tests before we find that out...

It certainly has enough horses as an electric on a dry day. As always, my worry is the lack of axles laying all that power on the rails in poor adhesion conditions.

Similarly a single 86/90 has sufficient horses on a good day, but they run in pairs in case of bad conditions which has to be allowed for, if the job is not to grind to a halt on such days.

37038 · 6 Apr 2017

furnessvale said:
It certainly has enough horses as an electric on a dry day. As always, my worry is the lack of axles laying all that power on the rails in poor adhesion conditions.

Similarly a single 86/90 has sufficient horses on a good day, but they run in pairs in case of bad conditions which has to be allowed for, if the job is not to grind to a halt on such days.

With modern traction systems in place, in won't have any issues. 68s are very well regarded in translating grunt to traction efficiently

Roast Veg · 6 Apr 2017

I remember hearing that the same concerns about Bo-Bo arrangement were raised with Vossloh (as it was) over the 68s, and they demonstrated that their design was perfectly suitable in response.

Sunbird24 · 6 Apr 2017

Some interesting information in the newly published franchise document regarding the use of 68s by TPE is that the number of locomotives could be increased up to 18, and that once electrification is completed some or all could be replaced by 88s, if they are available. Although the maximum speed of the 88 as specified for mixed traffic is 160 kmh (100 mph) the design speed for passenger use only is 200 kmh (125 mph). This could mean that if there is a requirement for more 68s in the future, then this could be achieved by building more 88s, perhaps geared for higher speed also. All depends on how far away the electrification is in reality.
On the 68 front in Valencia 68029 is now looking complete in plain blue livery and 68030 was out on the test track today, also in plain blue but far from complete in other respects.

Bornin1980s · 6 Apr 2017

Sunbird24 said:
LED lights do flicker but at a very high rate which the human eye cannot normally perceive due to the human eye's persistance of vision. LEDs operate by a very rapid pulsing of power. The same reason old cine films appear to flicker (hence the old term "going to the flicks") as the frame rate was only 16 fps, later 24 fps to reduce the flicker. Modern videos are in the order of 48 fps.

I have an elderly family friend who has found that video displays can give him migraines. Will LED lights have the same effect on sufferers?

Roast Veg · 7 Apr 2017

Only if you were to stare directly at them for prolonged periods of time, which I don't recommend anyone does for any light source.

furnessvale · 7 Apr 2017

37038 said:
With modern traction systems in place, in won't have any issues. 68s are very well regarded in translating grunt to traction efficiently

Fair enough. I remain to be convinced that there is any alternative to extra axles laying the power on the rails when adhesion is a problem.

I have said before, give me the same number of horses and the same traction control package, with 2 extra axles I will move more tonnage in bad adhesion conditions.

LNW-GW Joint · 10 Apr 2017

I think this is the place to post the fact that Beacon Rail, owner of the Class 68/88 locos and CAF sleeper coaches amongst others, has been taken over by American bank JP Morgan.
This sounds like a more secure place to lease rolling stock from.
It is still relatively small by UK ROSCO standards.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/business/single-view/view/jp-morgan-buys-beacon-rail.html

An agreement has been signed for JP Morgan Asset Management to acquire the Beacon Rail rolling stock leasing business from Pamplona Capital Management for around 1bn.
Completion of the deal is expected shortly

CosherB · 13 Apr 2017

Reported elsewhere that there is likely to be minimal movement for the remainder of April for the 88s, as it stands. They've "jumped through all the hoops" asked of them, now just a case of waiting a formal sign off by NR for general use, and ongoing commissioning of 003-010.

TimboM · 13 Apr 2017

CosherB said:
Reported elsewhere that there is likely to be minimal movement for the remainder of April for the 88s, as it stands. They've "jumped through all the hoops" asked of them, now just a case of waiting a formal sign off by NR for general use, and ongoing commissioning of 003-010.

Will they not be using the opportunity of the time waiting for NR paperwork to do some driver training runs? I guess there's a fair amount of similarity to a 68, but there must be some differences, and hours that need to be accumulated in the cab?

Also, we know 88001 and 88002 appear to be running fine, but you'd think as part of the commissioning of 003-010 it may be prudent to give each of them a decent test run at some point?

E_Reeves · 13 Apr 2017

Not sure if this has been posted already, but a class 88 will run along the WCML from London Euston to the north, May 9th. £195 if you want to ride behind it!

http://www.ukrailtours.com/product/the-class-88-vip-launch-train/

Class 88 UKDual & EuroDual

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