Caledonian Sleeper discussion

TimboM · 10 Apr 2017

Clansman said:
Ye, 2x 73s hauling 10 coaches.

The Fort William passengers wouldn't have been happy in Kingussie to say the least.

135L now (and counting). 2x 73s should be able to keep to time with 10 coaches you'd think - maybe one of them has failed and it's a solo effort by the other one??

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Clansman · 10 Apr 2017

TimboM said:
135L now (and counting). 2x 73s should be able to keep to time with 10 coaches you'd think - maybe one of them has failed and it's a solo effort by the other one??

Wouldn't surprise me if the 73s have some issues. After all, they initially struggled with rakes of 7 and 8 coaches up the HML when introduced.

As said earlier on in the thread, when I was in Inverness on Saturday I noticed that the Fort William coaches were left on the platform whilst the sleeper parked itself in the sidings - which was odd given the sleeper was sitting as a full 10 car set on the platform before hand, with the locomotives on the front. So throughout Saturday, the sleeper was shunted out upon arrival, reversed back in from the 73s, and then brough back out of the platforms again and into the sidings, this time leaving the Fort William coaches behind.

Couldn't have happened on a worse night either:

Fort William portion being added on to the Inverness portion, with passengers for the former boarding/alighting at Kingussie
Diversion via Fife Circle
Diversion via ECML

On the plus side - passengers on the Aberdeen portion will sleep easy with the coaches sitting dead at Waverley for 3 hours

Update
Now running 3 hours late and counting - arrived into Perth at 01:35 and not moved since - looks like it's been cancelled there.

RTT showing an STP diagram of a loco from Polmadie having arrived into Waverley at midnight - possibly to allow the Aberdeen portion to continue to London? 4 hours in and no updated diagrams to be seen anywhere on RTT.

Update 2
Caledonian Sleeper has confirmed it was an issue with one of the 73s.

Scotrail84 · 10 Apr 2017

Clansman said:
Wouldn't surprise me if the 73s have some issues. After all, they initially struggled with rakes of 7 and 8 coaches up the HML when introduced.

As said earlier on in the thread, when I was in Inverness on Saturday I noticed that the Fort William coaches were left on the platform whilst the sleeper parked itself in the sidings - which was odd given the sleeper was sitting as a full 10 car set on the platform before hand, with the locomotives on the front. So throughout Saturday, the sleeper was shunted out upon arrival, reversed back in from the 73s, and then brough back out of the platforms again and into the sidings, this time leaving the Fort William coaches behind.

Couldn't have happened on a worse night either:

Fort William portion being added on to the Inverness portion, with passengers for the former boarding/alighting at Kingussie

Diversion via Fife Circle

Diversion via ECML

On the plus side - passengers on the Aberdeen portion will sleep easy with the coaches sitting dead at Waverley for 3 hours

Update
Now running 3 hours late and counting - arrived into Perth at 01:35 and not moved since - looks like it's been cancelled there.

RTT showing an STP diagram of a loco from Polmadie having arrived into Waverley at midnight - possibly to allow the Aberdeen portion to continue to London? 4 hours in and no updated diagrams to be seen anywhere on RTT.

Update 2
Caledonian Sleeper has confirmed it was an issue with one of the 73s.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C73216/2017/04/09/advanced

Scotrail84 · 10 Apr 2017

Clansman said:
Wouldn't surprise me if the 73s have some issues. After all, they initially struggled with rakes of 7 and 8 coaches up the HML when introduced.

As said earlier on in the thread, when I was in Inverness on Saturday I noticed that the Fort William coaches were left on the platform whilst the sleeper parked itself in the sidings - which was odd given the sleeper was sitting as a full 10 car set on the platform before hand, with the locomotives on the front. So throughout Saturday, the sleeper was shunted out upon arrival, reversed back in from the 73s, and then brough back out of the platforms again and into the sidings, this time leaving the Fort William coaches behind.

Couldn't have happened on a worse night either:

Fort William portion being added on to the Inverness portion, with passengers for the former boarding/alighting at Kingussie

Diversion via Fife Circle

Diversion via ECML

On the plus side - passengers on the Aberdeen portion will sleep easy with the coaches sitting dead at Waverley for 3 hours

Update
Now running 3 hours late and counting - arrived into Perth at 01:35 and not moved since - looks like it's been cancelled there.

RTT showing an STP diagram of a loco from Polmadie having arrived into Waverley at midnight - possibly to allow the Aberdeen portion to continue to London? 4 hours in and no updated diagrams to be seen anywhere on RTT.

Update 2
Caledonian Sleeper has confirmed it was an issue with one of the 73s.

Still running all the way to London.

crewmeal · 10 Apr 2017

Back in the old days a 73 would regularly haul 10 Mk1 coaches on the Channel Island Boat Train from Bournemouth to Waterloo and back. But it was using the 3rd rail.

TimboM · 10 Apr 2017

The Northbound lowlander arrived at Newcastle 52E but left 150L, so sat there for almost 3.5 hours.

It left 5 mins after the heavily delayed Southbound highlander got in, so possibly a train crew issue as I think they do a crew change there and could be that the driver (and/or guard) working the Highlander Is required to take this service on to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Could be a completely unrelated issue though.

Either way, would've been an interesting sight for early morning commuters at Newcastle.

TimboM · 10 Apr 2017

Clansman said:
Update
RTT showing an STP diagram of a loco from Polmadie having arrived into Waverley at midnight - possibly to allow the Aberdeen portion to continue to London? 4 hours in and no updated diagrams to be seen anywhere on RTT.

Scotrail84 said:
Still running all the way to London.

The Polmadie-Edinburgh ECS path I believe you're referring to was already in before the Highlander got delayed. I think it's 67013 returning with the rest of the Fort William set as they all went to Polmadie over the weekend, but not 100% sure.

Scotrail84 · 10 Apr 2017

TimboM said:
The Northbound lowlander arrived at Newcastle 52E but left 150L, so sat there for almost 3.5 hours.

It left 5 mins after the heavily delayed Southbound highlander got in, so possibly a train crew issue as I think they do a crew change there and could be that the driver (and/or guard) working the Highlander Is required to take this service on to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Could be a completely unrelated issue though.

Either way, would've been an interesting sight for early morning commuters at Newcastle.

Driver change.

Scotrail84 · 10 Apr 2017

TimboM said:
The Polmadie-Edinburgh ECS path I believe you're referring to was already in before the Highlander got delayed. I think it's 67013 returning with the rest of the Fort William set as they all went to Polmadie over the weekend, but not 100% sure.

Ft William day coaches, the brake van and lounge. Think it was a 73 though.

1M16 now 135 down

TimboM · 10 Apr 2017

Scotrail84 said:
Ft William day coaches, the brake van and lounge. Think it was a 73 though.

1M16 now 135 down

Looks like it then got caught up in the ECML overheard wire problems near Ranskill as back up to 196L by Huntingdon, although recovered a bit to 150L now. It doesn't rain it pours!

Highland37 · 10 Apr 2017

In a purely factual analysis, has the introduction of any modern locomotive (say 1990 onwards) being as long and protracted as that of the 73s?

They *seem* to have issues whenever they go near the Inverness sleeper.

LeylandLen · 10 Apr 2017

It appears 1M16 The Highlander, now not due Euston until 1203, ie Monday afternoon , although RTT shows time at Wembley , reversing , for about 30 mins. Hope they have enough time and people available to service it before it returns north tonight !

TimboM · 10 Apr 2017

LeylandLen said:
It appears 1M16 The Highlander, now not due Euston until 1203, ie Monday afternoon , although RTT shows time at Wembley , reversing , for about 30 mins. Hope they have enough time and people available to service it before it returns north tonight !

Thanks to a quicker than scheduled turnaround at Wembley, it's JUST made it to Euston whilst it's still morning.

They should be OK to turn it round before this evening. I think the way they cycle the sets this one will be going on the Lowlander tonight, so should have about 8 hours at Wembley to get prepped.

marks87 · 10 Apr 2017

Clansman said:
RTT showing an STP diagram of a loco from Polmadie having arrived into Waverley at midnight - possibly to allow the Aberdeen portion to continue to London? 4 hours in and no updated diagrams to be seen anywhere on RTT.

Regardless if the Inverness portion arrived, a new (electric) loco would be waiting for hauling south of Edinburgh. So no replacement needed from Polmadie.

Scotrail84 · 10 Apr 2017

TimboM said:
Looks like it then got caught up in the ECML overheard wire problems near Ranskill as back up to 196L by Huntingdon, although recovered a bit to 150L now. It doesn't rain it pours!

No it was not caught up in the wires being down it was looped at conington to allow 3 x high speeds past, then it got a clear run on the up fast all the way to Finsbury Park before diverging onto the NLL.

Scotrail84 · 10 Apr 2017

TimboM said:
Thanks to a quicker than scheduled turnaround at Wembley, it's JUST made it to Euston whilst it's still morning.

They should be OK to turn it round before this evening. I think the way they cycle the sets this one will be going on the Lowlander tonight, so should have about 8 hours at Wembley to get prepped.

You're joking. The crew need a minimum of nine hours rest between shifts. That does not include booking on/off time and walking time.

Scotrail84 · 10 Apr 2017

LeylandLen said:
It appears 1M16 The Highlander, now not due Euston until 1203, ie Monday afternoon , although RTT shows time at Wembley , reversing , for about 30 mins. Hope they have enough time and people available to service it before it returns north tonight !

That set will make 1S26 so plenty time to prep it.

Scotrail84 · 10 Apr 2017

If it hadn't been for the 90 that they used at the last minute on 1M16 that substituted for 92 033 the train would not be in yet with 92s being restricted to 87mph leaving little scope for make up time.

CosherB · 10 Apr 2017

Highland37 said:
In a purely factual analysis, has the introduction of any modern locomotive (say 1990 onwards) being as long and protracted as that of the 73s?

They *seem* to have issues whenever they go near the Inverness sleeper.

You're having a laugh aren't you? Have you heard of the Class 60? :roll:

Highland37 · 10 Apr 2017

CosherB said:
You're having a laugh aren't you? Have you heard of the Class 60? :roll:

Yes that did cross my mind. It does seem to be taking a *very* long time to get these 73s into service. I went to Inverness station at lunchtime DB 67 there, as usual!

43096 · 10 Apr 2017

CosherB said:
You're having a laugh aren't you? Have you heard of the Class 60? :roll:

Or the 92. Or the 70. Or.....

In fact, even with the 73s take a look at the RVEL version (73951/2). Still not in service.

gsnedders · 10 Apr 2017

Highland37 said:
Yes that did cross my mind. It does seem to be taking a *very* long time to get these 73s into service. I went to Inverness station at lunchtime DB 67 there, as usual!

Heck, how long was it until the 67s could meet their design specification?

D1009 · 10 Apr 2017

LeylandLen said:
It appears 1M16 The Highlander, now not due Euston until 1203, ie Monday afternoon , although RTT shows time at Wembley , reversing , for about 30 mins. Hope they have enough time and people available to service it before it returns north tonight !

When you think about it, if they'd been allowed to, people could have left that train at Edinburgh to catch the 0540 VTEC Flying Scotsman, and arrived in London over 2 hours earlier.

GW43125 · 10 Apr 2017

D1009 said:
When you think about it, if they'd been allowed to, people could have left that train at Edinburgh to catch the 0540 VTEC Flying Scotsman, and arrived in London over 2 hours earlier.

Cha-ching! Not exactly a cheap option.

Scotrail84 · 10 Apr 2017

D1009 said:
When you think about it, if they'd been allowed to, people could have left that train at Edinburgh to catch the 0540 VTEC Flying Scotsman, and arrived in London over 2 hours earlier.

Passengers were given the option of getting off at PBO and catching any GN service to kings x but VTEC would not accept sleeper tickets. It was still quicker getting a GN service though.

Blindtraveler · 10 Apr 2017

Id personally have stayed where I was, partly as I need the bits at Wemly but also as I much prefer dear old Euston to the cross any day.

Highland37 · 10 Apr 2017

gsnedders said:
Heck, how long was it until the 67s could meet their design specification?

I don't know. How long was it? And did they achieve reliability during the period before they met the spec, unlike the 73s, or were unreliable and didn't met the spec.

How much is this GBRf contract worth? £100 million?

Blindtraveler · 10 Apr 2017

If I were transport minister I would be seriously looking at it right now.

Are well another week I guess, hope all goes well with it given the numbers that are likely to be traveling over Easter

TimboM · 10 Apr 2017

Scotrail84 said:
No it was not caught up in the wires being down it was looped at conington to allow 3 x high speeds past, then it got a clear run on the up fast all the way to Finsbury Park before diverging onto the NLL.

Ah ok, ta.

Scotrail84 said:
You're joking. The crew need a minimum of nine hours rest between shifts. That does not include booking on/off time and walking time.

Scotrail84 said:
That set will make 1S26 so plenty time to prep it.

I was referring to the prep time at the depot (which I'm guessing is not done by the on board staff?) - not the time for the crew.

Scotrail84 said:
If it hadn't been for the 90 that they used at the last minute on 1M16 that substituted for 92 033 the train would not be in yet with 92s being restricted to 87mph leaving little scope for make up time.

How fast realistically do the 90s go when making up time, though - presumably restricted to some extent by the ancient rolling stock and passenger comfort?

Scotrail84 · 10 Apr 2017

TimboM said:
Ah ok, ta.

I was referring to the prep time at the depot (which I'm guessing is not done by the on board staff?) - not the time for the crew.

Sound, fair enough

How fast realistically do the 90s go when making up time, though - presumably restricted to some extent by the ancient rolling stock and passenger comfort?

90s can do 100mph on the sleeper. The speed of the slowest vehicle is 100mph, these are the mk2 brake and lounge cars. A class 90 can easily make up an hour plus running at 100 all the way.

Class 92s are different as they are restricted to 87mph, that's only 7mph over the booked comfort speed of 80mph which the sleeper runs to.

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