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12pm doesn't exist

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miami

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12 pm doesn't exist... and nor does 12 am. 12 noon and 12 midnight - or 12.00 and 24.00 or 00.00 - are unambiguous, 11.59 and 12.01, 23.59 and 00.01 equally exact. When is 12 pm (post-noon)? Do they mean Midnight?

Clearly they do, 12 hours post-meridian, which is midnight in all cases aside from a leap seconds.

(12am however is less precise, as 12 hours ante-meridian could be 00:00, 01:00 or even 23:00)
 

cle

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12 pm doesn't exist... and nor does 12 am. 12 noon and 12 midnight - or 12.00 and 24.00 or 00.00 - are unambiguous, 11.59 and 12.01, 23.59 and 00.01 equally exact. When is 12 pm (post-noon)? Do they mean Midnight?

12pm means noon as you well know.

If you're so correct and it's pedant o'clock (pm), why aren't you using colons? You're portraying numbers/pricing, not time.
 

fusionblue

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12 pm doesn't exist... and nor does 12 am. 12 noon and 12 midnight - or 12.00 and 24.00 or 00.00 - are unambiguous, 11.59 and 12.01, 23.59 and 00.01 equally exact. When is 12 pm (post-noon)? Do they mean Midnight?

So by that logic taken to its very extreme, time doesn't exist either and neither does the very concept of measuring the passage of time or any reference points :p
 

AndrewE

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12pm means noon as you well know.

If you're so correct and it's pedant o'clock (pm), why aren't you using colons? You're portraying numbers/pricing, not time.

Meridian is noon, pm is post-noon, so as paulweaver says 12pm is midnight, whatever punctuation you use, dots, colons or nothing. Unfortunately I think most users of 12pm (like you) actually mean midday, 1200 or 12.00 or 12:00, which is clearly wrong as it is an oxymoron. It's either noon (1200) or it's after noon (p.m.) and 12:00:01 or 1201 onwards, however you want to punctuate it.

I believe that railway timetabling uses the convention that 2400 is an arrival from the day before and 0000 or 0001 is a departure going forward into the small hours.
 
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AndrewE

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As was your initial post and the subsequent bickering.

Seeing as we have 2 opposite opinions on what 12pm might mean I would have thought that (especially in a railway timetabling context) it was essential that people could get this right.
 

ComUtoR

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Seeing as we have 2 opposite opinions on what 12pm might mean I would have thought that (especially in a railway timetabling context) it was essential that people could get this right.

Let's be honest. Most people can get it right.
 

Mutant Lemming

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So by that logic taken to its very extreme, time doesn't exist either and neither does the very concept of measuring the passage of time or any reference points :p

If we travel faster than light we can get there before ourselves and watch us arrive.
Sometimes using Thameslink (and the train operators formerly known as) can leave you in that kind of confused state as to not knowing whether you are coming or going or if you've already been there and are watching yourself on a 700 going in the other direction when you really know you are crammed in to a four car 319 going the other way.
 

3141

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12 pm doesn't exist... and nor does 12 am.
12 noon and 12 midnight - or 12.00 and 24.00 or 00.00 - are unambiguous, 11.59 and 12.01, 23.59 and 00.01 equally exact. When is 12 pm (post-noon)? Do they mean Midnight?

If you looked back a sufficient number of years to the time when Britain did not use the 24-hour clock, you'd find that 12 am meant midnight and 12 pm meant midday, and everyone understood. Radio Times, for example, used those times.

The use of colons as in 12:00 was an American style that has managed to cross the Atlantic.

I don't think 00.00 and 24.00 are unambiguous. When railway timetables switched to the 24-hour clock, it was felt necessary to explain that one represented a departure time and the other represented an arrival. But there was clearly a concern that people might still misunderstand, so they used 23.59 for midnight arrivals and 00.01 for departures.
 

ejstubbs

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Let's be honest. Most people can get it right.

The National Physical Laboratory (which runs the atomic clocks that are the basis of all time in the UK) says: "There are no standards established for the meaning of 12 a.m. and 12 p.m." So just maybe it's not quite a clear-cut as you seem to think.

Here's the full text of that web page:

Is midnight 12 a.m. or 12 p.m.? (FAQ - Time)

There is no confusion when using the words 12 noon (or midday) and 12 midnight, although the use of 12 midnight can raise the question of 'which day?'. To avoid confusion in, for example, an insurance certificate, it is always better to use the 24-hour clock, when 12:00 is 12 noon and, for example, 24:00 Sunday or 00:00 Monday both mean 12 midnight Sunday/Monday. It is common in transport timetables to use 23:59 Sunday or 00:01 Monday (in this example), or 11:59 p.m. or 12:01 a.m., to further reduce confusion.

There are no standards established for the meaning of 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. It is often said that 12 a.m. Monday is midnight on Monday morning and 12 p.m. is midday. This puts all the times beginning with 12 and ending with a.m. in the same one-hour block, similarly with those ending with p.m. It can also be argued that by the time you have seen a clock showing 12:00 at mid-day it is already post meridiem, and similarly at midnight it is already ante meridiem. Times in the first hour of the day are sometimes given as, for example, 00:47 a.m., with 00:00 a.m. corresponding to midnight, but with a time twelve hours later given as 12:47 p.m.

Another convention sometimes used is that, since 12 noon is by definition neither ante meridiem (before noon) nor post meridiem (after noon), then 12 a.m. refers to midnight at the start of the specified day (00:00) and 12 p.m. to midnight at the end of that day (24:00). Given this ambiguity, the terms 12 a.m. and 12 p.m. should be avoided.

As the UK's National Measurement Institute, the National Physical Laboratory (NPL) has a vital role to play in maintaining the UK's time scale. The current atomic clock system at NPL is the basis of all UK time, and cutting-edge research is being carried out to improve timekeeping accuracy even further.
 

tspaul26

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Insofar as I can recall (I do not have a copy to hand at the moment) the old Bradshaw tables used all four to indicate the time of day at the head of each column: midnight (or an abbreviation thereof e.g. m'ght); a.m.; noon; and p.m..
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Meridian is noon, pm is post-noon, so as paulweaver says 12pm is midnight, whatever punctuation you use, dots, colons or nothing. Unfortunately I think most users of 12pm (like you) actually mean midday, 1200 or 12.00 or 12:00, which is clearly wrong as it is an oxymoron. It's either noon (1200) or it's after noon (p.m.) and 12:00:01 or 1201 onwards, however you want to punctuate it.

To be completely pedantic, meridian is when the sun is at its highest, which during summer time is around 1300 (it varies because of the equation of time).
I know of no rule that says you must use colons or stops or "hrs" to show time, any more than you must use comas or stops for 1000s.
The NRT doesn't use them.
 

Howardh

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12pm cannot be after midnight.
Reason; 11:59 and 59.9 seconds is in the morning, so the next tenth of a second puts you in the afternoon, hence 12pm.
Must admit it is a confusion, and I note the last bus from Manchester to Bolton is deliberately timed at 23:59 and not 00, 12am, whatever when all the other earlier evening buses run at 00 and 30!!
 

Howardh

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Here's a distinct possibility, Mum has twins, the first one out arrives at 0158, the second one arrives at 0103, and is therefore younger than the first.

Obviously it's on the weekend when we put the hour back; but it could also happen in an ambulance where time-zones are crossed going to hospital (eg Portugal/Spain!)
 

me123

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Obviously it's on the weekend when we put the hour back; but it could also happen in an ambulance where time-zones are crossed going to hospital (eg Portugal/Spain!)

In practice, it's highly unlikely that the ambulance would be moving at the moment of delivery though. They tend to pull over at the moment of birth, particularly for twins as it is somewhat useful to have both paramedics available to assist.

Personally, to avoid confusion I'll always refer to 12 Midnight or 12 Noon (although I do tend to use the 24 hour clock in any official communication). Whilst there is a convention with regards to use of am and pm, just do a quick internet search and you'll realise that lots of people simply do not agree on this.

WRT midnight, I'll do what the railways seem to - 23:59 on the day before or 00:01 on the day after. There should be no confusion as to what time was intended.
 

Groningen

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Look at Greyhound in the USA. There is no bus departing (or arriving) at 0.00 or 12.00 hour. For example: the bus 9469 departs at 12:01 pm from Los Angeles and arrives at 2.45 pm in San Diego. Luckely we have a 24 hour clock and do not need to think of am and/or pm. Another example: Granby, Colorado: arrive 11:45 am - depart 12:01 pm.
 

AndrewE

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I know of no rule that says you must use colons or stops or "hrs" to show time, any more than you must use comas or stops for 1000s.
The NRT doesn't use them.
Thanks Yorkie for splitting this thread off, I think it is not just pedantry...

LNW-GW Joint, I think that we are agreeing that the punctuation is irrelevant
 

AndrewE

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I know of no rule that says you must use colons or stops or "hrs" to show time, any more than you must use comas or stops for 1000s.
The NRT doesn't use them.

12pm cannot be after midnight.
Reason; 11:59 and 59.9 seconds is in the morning, so the next tenth of a second puts you in the afternoon, hence 12pm.

No-one is talking about after midnight, that is clearly morning - or at least a.m. Why do you say the next tenth after 11:59 and 59.9 seconds isn't actually noon then? I would say the one after that really was p.m! (12:00:00.1)
if we can agree 1200 is noon (and BST is irrelevant here as timetables work by the public clock) then 12pm can only be midnight.
 
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Barn

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Wow. This is possibly the most pedantic thread on this site, and that's saying something.
 

Mag_seven

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Wow. This is possibly the most pedantic thread on this site, and that's saying something.

Well you might say its pedantic but it could be a matter of life and death of someone gives the order to launch a nuclear missile at "12.00pm" ;)
 

me123

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Wow. This is possibly the most pedantic thread on this site, and that's saying something.

Pedantic, perhaps. But there are many, many instances in life when you need to know for certain when something is going to happen/should happen or when something has happened. One of the most basic yet remarkable things about us humans is that we can communicate with each other with regards to time and understand and agree upon a rather abstract concept. It's actually pivotal to how we function in our day-to-day lives. By a commonly agreed concept, I know when I'm expected to be at work.

There are many examples of when the 12am/pm issue can be confusing and it's worth clarifying. Railways and other forms of public transportation are an obvious example for this forum - if I book a flight that departs at 12pm, I'm going to want to know exactly when I'm expected to be at the airport! Any legal document (particularly documents that are updated contemporaneously and frequently, such as a medical record) benefits from the clarity of the 24 hour clock. If I give someone instructions to do something at 12 noon, saying 12 noon minimises the risk of error (more relevant in environments that are active 24 hours a day). Similarly, if I'm receiving instructions, I know exactly what is expected of me.

For lots of people, it probably isn't too much of an issue. Most people are awake at 12 noon, probably at work and thinking about having lunch; but are probably either asleep or thinking about going to bed at 12 midnight. But in environments where people work 24 hours a day, there is plenty of potential for confusion.
 

miami

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Aside from the US does anyone use 12 hour clocks any more?
 

Calthrop

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Wow. This is possibly the most pedantic thread on this site, and that's saying something.

Pedantry is fun ! People love being pedants, and disputing over pedantry's finer points -- they always have done.
 

455driver

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I believe that railway timetabling uses the convention that 2400 is an arrival from the day before and 0000 or 0001 is a departure going forward into the small hours.

Show me a (working) timetable with 00:00 or 24:00 on it!
 

miami

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People working on mars missions set their clocks to a 26ish hour day, so there's a 24:00 and a 25:00 :p
 

Howardh

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Pedantry is fun ! People love being pedants, and disputing over pedantry's finer points -- they always have done.

I'm enjoying the current crusade's to get apostrophes' in the correct places, it just shows the lack of intelligence of people when they cant follow simple rules what they should have learned at school innit.

Wot??;)
 

Mag_seven

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On a slightly related issue I was looking at some "last train" time posters on LUL recently and the post midnight last trains of a Sunday service are shown as running on "Sundays" even although its technically "Monday".
 
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