Could I be prosecuted for this?

helana77 · 3 Apr 2017

Hello,

I catch the train a couple of days a week to Manchester from a station where you can't purchase tickets. Today I bought a ticket from Manchester Oxford Road from the desk because no conductor came down my train for me to a buy a ticket from. I caught the train at 9am and with my railcard the journey costs £12 before 10am and is cheaper after 10am. I got to Manchester Oxford Road at 09.50 and when I purchased my day return I was charged around £6. The ticket man had charged me for a ticket as if I had travelled after 10am. I did not say anything and just went through the gates with my ticket after this.

Could I have been prosecuted for this? Is the ticket man at fault for selling me the wrong ticket or me for not speaking out and saying the ticket should be £12?

RailUK Forums

MikeWh · 3 Apr 2017

helana77 said:
Hello,

I catch the train a couple of days a week to Manchester from a station where you can't purchase tickets. Today I bought a ticket from Manchester Oxford Road from the desk because no conductor came down my train for me to a buy a ticket from. I caught the train at 9am and with my railcard the journey costs £12 before 10am and is cheaper after 10am. I got to Manchester Oxford Road at 09.50 and when I purchased my day return I was charged around £6. The ticket man had charged me for a ticket as if I had travelled after 10am. I did not say anything and just went through the gates with my ticket after this.

Could I have been prosecuted for this? Is the ticket man at fault for selling me the wrong ticket or me for not speaking out and saying the ticket should be £12?

As long as you asked for the ticket which covered the journey you had actually made then you have done nothing wrong. Enjoy your bonus!

helana77 · 3 Apr 2017

Thank you. Yes I asked to buy the train ticket which covered the journey I had actually made.

tony_mac · 3 Apr 2017

No, nothing will happen to you, they have fare more important things to deal with, no way of knowing what happened, and it was their own mistake....

However, in future, if you know they have charged you the wrong fare then I think you should tell them about it. Apart from anything else, it will stop you worrying!

helana77 · 3 Apr 2017

tony_mac said:
No, nothing will happen to you, they have fare more important things to deal with, no way of knowing what happened, and it was their own mistake....

However, in future, if you know they have charged you the wrong fare then I think you should tell them about it. Apart from anything else, it will stop you worrying!

Thank you. OK i realise I could not be prosecuted over this incident but was wondering about what I should do if this happens again in the future.

Agent_c · 3 Apr 2017

As a point of Ethics, if you're aware you're being short charged then you have an ethical obligation to put it right.

However, as a point of law, I don't think there's anything wrong here. You have stated your need, and the ticket office has made you an offer for a service that meets that need, and you have in turn accepted that offer. The only thing that worries me is the requirement for you to check your ticket, and whether that would allow the TOC to escape their error - but would any TOC take someone to court for the TOCs own error?

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2017

Er, hang on a minute.

You could be prosecuted under the Byelaws because they are strict liability. The fact is that the ticket was not valid for the journey made, and the correct fare was not paid. It is however infinitessimally unlikely.

RoRA would be unlikely to succeed, however, as there is no intent. If however you were aware the ticket is not valid, it is a possibility.

najaB · 3 Apr 2017

Neil Williams said:
You could be prosecuted under the Byelaws because they are strict liability. The fact is that the ticket was not valid for the journey made, and the correct fare was not paid. It is however infinitessimally unlikely.

I don't see how they could. A 18.1 prosecution would fail because there were no facilities for the purchase of a ticket before boarding, and there was no request for the ticket to be inspected meaning that 18.2 wouldn't be relevant.

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2017

najaB said:
I don't see how they could. A 18.1 prosecution would fail because there were no facilities for the purchase of a ticket before boarding, and there was no request for the ticket to be inspected meaning that 18.2 wouldn't be relevant.

No, but if it had been inspected it would.

helana77 · 3 Apr 2017

Neil Williams said:
No, but if it had been inspected it would.

So if after I bought it from the ticket man at the desk, if then an inspector checked it before I proceeded through the gates, then I would have been at risk of prosecution?

najaB · 3 Apr 2017

Neil Williams said:
No, but if it had been inspected it would.

I think you would get a lot of mileage out of the argument that being sold that ticket, having shown/stated that they had a railcard, amounts to being given permission to travel with that ticket in accordance with 18.3.

Haywain · 3 Apr 2017

Neil Williams said:
RoRA would be unlikely to succeed, however, as there is no intent. If however you were aware the ticket is not valid, it is a possibility.

Does paying a lower fare than the fare known to be due demonstrate intent to avoid the correct fare? This all hypothetical, of course.

najaB · 3 Apr 2017

Haywain said:
Does paying a lower fare than the fare known to be due demonstrate intent to avoid the correct fare? This all hypothetical, of course.

I think if you asked for a ticket and paid the price you were quoted it would be very hard to make a case that you demonstrated intent to avoid paying the correct fare.

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2017

najaB said:
I think if you asked for a ticket and paid the price you were quoted it would be very hard to make a case that you demonstrated intent to avoid paying the correct fare.

A Byelaw prosecution does not require intent, it is a matter of fact.

najaB · 3 Apr 2017

Neil Williams said:
A Byelaw prosecution does not require intent, it is a matter of fact.

I believe the question was asked in relation to potential for a RoRA prosecution.

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2017

najaB said:
I believe the question was asked in relation to potential for a RoRA prosecution.

I agree it would be very difficult to make RoRA stick, though if the passenger knew they were not paying the correct fare, as it seems they did, it's possible.

island · 3 Apr 2017

Neil Williams said:
A Byelaw prosecution does not require intent, it is a matter of fact.

And it was a matter of fact that the passenger joined the train at a station where there were no ticket purchasing facilities in working order, which is fatal to a Byelaw 18 prosecution. Simples.

Mag_seven · 3 Apr 2017

Neil Williams said:
Er, hang on a minute.

You could be prosecuted under the Byelaws because they are strict liability. The fact is that the ticket was not valid for the journey made, and the correct fare was not paid. It is however infinitessimally unlikely.

RoRA would be unlikely to succeed, however, as there is no intent. If however you were aware the ticket is not valid, it is a possibility.

Maybe this particular booking clerk should spend some time at City Thameslink in order to even things out

CheesyChips · 3 Apr 2017

If we put aside our shared understanding that tickets differ in price depending on time of travel....

It could never be established without admission by the OP that they understood that there are ticket price differentials dependent on time. The ticket seller is the only party that could be expected to know this but they didn't ask the OP.

How much assumed knowledge must the 'man who uses trains once every few years' have? Should the OP have volunteered information about whether they were standing or sitting, travelling on a pacer vs actual train etc in the hope they hit the relevant variables that affect ticket price? No.

miami · 4 Apr 2017

There are all sorts of time and route based restrictions, and railstaff are incapable of understanding even the basic ones. How would someone travelling on a regular basis be expected to know if a ticket office is selling them the right one, other than just trusting them?

falcon · 4 Apr 2017

najaB said:
I think if you asked for a ticket and paid the price you were quoted it would be very hard to make a case that you demonstrated intent to avoid paying the correct fare.

Not when you know you should be paying more. That's an offence and not just a bye law offence.

How would he answer the question if put by RP "are you aware that you should have paid £12 as that is the minimum amount before 10am"?

The truth would "yes". So he's guilty of not paying the correct fare (the obligation is on him to pay the correct fare)

If he say's "no". He is lying so he is guilty because he is frightened of the truth.

If he say's "I don't know" he is lying because he does and is frightened of the truth again.

RP will not be interested in what the ticket office sold him all that will matter is establishing his guilty mind.

To say "that's what the ticket office sold me" when you knew it was the incorrect fare establishes the required mens rea.

So in order to avoide prosecution he would have to lie and that's why he has asked the question here. He knows he should have owned up and paid the correct fare. But he is slowly driffting into it like so many others do. RP officer rubbing hands.Yes!

bb21 · 12 Apr 2017

paulweaver said:
There are all sorts of time and route based restrictions, and railstaff are incapable of understanding even the basic ones. How would someone travelling on a regular basis be expected to know if a ticket office is selling them the right one, other than just trusting them?

That is a nonsense generalisation.

If you are talking about a small proportion of the whole workforce, don't point the finger at everyone.

najaB · 12 Apr 2017

falcon said:
Not when you know you should be paying more. That's an offence and not just a bye law offence.

I'm not sure I agree. The OP didn't actively seek to avoid payment - they asked for a ticket and paid the price they were quoted. They can't be held responsible for being issued the wrong ticket.

miami · 12 Apr 2017

bb21 said:
That is a nonsense generalisation.

If you are talking about a small proportion of the whole workforce, don't point the finger at everyone.

On certain routes and tocs it's an institutional problem. To argue that the passenger must be aware of the ticket office's mistakes otherwise risk being brought up in court and fined (or as some commentators suggest, get given a criminal record), but the ticket office can get it wrong, overcharge or undercharge, with no impact whatsoever. That disparity is so one sided that in any fair system any case would be thrown out.

In Northern's case it's not just a few bad members of staff -- they actually print posters saying 'You MUST attract the attention of the Conductor' when there's no ticket purchasing facility on the platform, otherwise you are committing a criminal offence. We've seen systematic problems at Paddington, time and time again, and problems at Euston that I've had have been escalated and the restrictions ignored. We see issues all the time where staff make up rubbish about break of journey, about off peak restrictions, about routes.

While this behaviour continues, how on earth can people suggest that someone asking for a ticket, and being sold a ticket, then leaving the station, end up with a criminal record?

You can't tar the general public with the same brush, but the employees of the railway industry are representing the entire industry -- not just their toc. One bad apple spoils the barrel.

jumble · 12 Apr 2017

falcon said:
Not when you know you should be paying more. That's an offence and not just a bye law offence.

How would he answer the question if put by RP "are you aware that you should have paid £12 as that is the minimum amount before 10am"?

The truth would "yes". So he's guilty of not paying the correct fare (the obligation is on him to pay the correct fare)

If he say's "no". He is lying so he is guilty because he is frightened of the truth.

If he say's "I don't know" he is lying because he does and is frightened of the truth again.

RP will not be interested in what the ticket office sold him all that will matter is establishing his guilty mind.

To say "that's what the ticket office sold me" when you knew it was the incorrect fare establishes the required mens rea.

So in order to avoid prosecution he would have to lie and that's why he has asked the question here. He knows he should have owned up and paid the correct fare. But he is slowly driffting into it like so many others do. RP officer rubbing hands.Yes!

Ho Hum
You seem to forgotten about the 4th option of
" You have cautioned me that I do not have to say anything and I wish to exercise that right apart from reiterating that I asked for a ticket and that is what the ticket office sold me so I naturally assumed that the ticket clerk knew his job""
I wonder how much legal training you have had.

bb21 · 12 Apr 2017

paulweaver said:
On certain routes and tocs it's an institutional problem. To argue that the passenger must be aware of the ticket office's mistakes otherwise risk being brought up in court and fined (or as some commentators suggest, get given a criminal record), but the ticket office can get it wrong, overcharge or undercharge, with no impact whatsoever. That disparity is so one sided that in any fair system any case would be thrown out.

In Northern's case it's not just a few bad members of staff -- they actually print posters saying 'You MUST attract the attention of the Conductor' when there's no ticket purchasing facility on the platform, otherwise you are committing a criminal offence. We've seen systematic problems at Paddington, time and time again, and problems at Euston that I've had have been escalated and the restrictions ignored. We see issues all the time where staff make up rubbish about break of journey, about off peak restrictions, about routes.

While this behaviour continues, how on earth can people suggest that someone asking for a ticket, and being sold a ticket, then leaving the station, end up with a criminal record?

You can't tar the general public with the same brush, but the employees of the railway industry are representing the entire industry -- not just their toc. One bad apple spoils the barrel.

And reports on this forum represent what proportion of the workforce?! :roll:

I quote you again,

paulweaver said:
railstaff are incapable of understanding even the basic ones

Which rail staff? You included the whole workforce with your post. Nothing about representing the industry or criticising the industry. You were directly criticising all rail staff.

Stop digging is usually the advice when in a hole. This is exactly the kind of posts that give the forum a bad name.

najaB · 12 Apr 2017

falcon said:
...So he's guilty of not paying the correct fare (the obligation is on him to pay the correct fare)...

I've been thinking about this some more, and I can't get my head around your argument that if I go to a ticket office, state my journey requirements and pay the fare requested that I've not paid the 'correct' fare.

The fare that was paid was the correct fare for the ticket that was issued, the fact that the ticket clerk issued the wrong ticket is a matter between them and their employer, not a concern of the passenger.

philthetube · 13 Apr 2017

jumble said:
Ho Hum
You seem to forgotten about the 4th option of
" You have cautioned me that I do not have to say anything and I wish to exercise that right apart from reiterating that I asked for a ticket and that is what the ticket office sold me so I naturally assumed that the ticket clerk knew his job""
I wonder how much legal training you have had.

You are correct in what you posted but why do people on this forum feel the need to constantly belittle other posters?

Could I be prosecuted for this?

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