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Aviation Discussion

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theageofthetra

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air Arabia Maroc are launching a Manchester - Agadir service. Evening rotation.

Norwegian have just launched a Denver and a Seattle service from London Gatwick.

Both somewhat popular if not expensive destinations. Denver in particular is up and coming.

Seattle is beginning to look oversaturated - BA and Virgin fly there from Heathrow.

That Denver route will be interesting- is it seasonal?

Don't forget a significant number of visitors to Vancouver/BC fly to Seattle because the flight costs are often cheaper and in particular rental car costs are vastly lower than renting in Canada.
 
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Crawley Ben

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That Denver route will be interesting- is it seasonal?

Don't forget a significant number of visitors to Vancouver/BC fly to Seattle because the flight costs are often cheaper and in particular rental car costs are vastly lower than renting in Canada.


Denver is scheduled to be all year round I believe? Starts off twice weekly, and then increases to 3x weekly later on in the year.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see destinations such as Washington DC & Chicago announced by DY at some point or other in the future.

Ben
 

me123

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Yes. There haven't been turboprops at LHR since KLM retired their F50s.

FlyBe Dash-8s have actually been to the airport more recently - under the guise of Brussels Airlines. Here's a video taken somewhere between 2012-4.

[youtube]mZyfmL6UrGY[/youtube]

The more observant amongst you will notice that the Dash in question bears a British registration - G-ECOH - which has always been with flyBe aside from a lease to SN lasting just over two years. They leased four of them at one point, and apparently still have two (although they don't seem to visit Heathrow any more).
 

theageofthetra

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Denver is scheduled to be all year round I believe? Starts off twice weekly, and then increases to 3x weekly later on in the year.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see destinations such as Washington DC & Chicago announced by DY at some point or other in the future.

Ben

Nashville is one that many want.
 

atillathehunn

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Nashville is one that many want.

I wouldn't have thought DY would shoot for Washington - probably a bit too business oriented.

I would have thought Chicago would be in with a shout, as would somewhere like Nashville (as you said) and perhaps somewhere like New Orleans.

In time perhaps they will look at LATAM somewhere - I'm somewhat surprised they haven't already. It's fairly firmly on the gap year trail and now more upmarket tourism as well.
 

atillathehunn

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Patently can't be true as the month of Ramadan moves forwards about two weeks every year.

Yes it does move, though it does move slowly. For the past few years it's sat within the reduction in capacity window that ArcticTroll pointed out. If you see the capacity slump on Emirates and match it against the Ramadam calendar notes, you may well find a link - though I have no idea.
 

Tetchytyke

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Patently can't be true as the month of Ramadan moves forwards about two weeks every year.

True enough, although for the last few years Ramadan times have matched the capacity cut.

As for more historical capacity cuts, I don't know and I don't care enough to go check.
 

Bromley boy

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For those who don't like landings, it's worth knowing that runways lengths are determined by take offs, not landings. This is because planes (usually) land at a lower speed than they take off, and can brake harder than they accelerate.

A fascinating topic.

Runway length is, of course, a fixed value for any particular runway.

Whether that runway length is sufficient for a given aircraft to land is determined by a calculation, starting with the aircraft's landing distance required at a given weight and applying safety factors such as runway length (e.g. must be capable of being down and stopped within 67% of runway length available on a dry runway), elevation, density altitude, runway gradient, contamination etc.

I wonder if it might be possible for certain aircraft, in certain configurations, to have a takeoff distance required that is less than the landing distance required, when the corrections are applied. I've actually put this question to a mate who flies 75/6s for a living and having consulted his performance manual he reckons, for those types, with a lightly loaded aircraft on a wet/contaminated runway, you could approach a situation where take-off distance required is around the same as landing distance required. Does anyone on here know of any aircraft types/configurations where LDR exceeds TDR?

On a related note it is, of course, a common occurrence for aircraft to get airborne at a weight that far exceeds their max structural landing weight, which is why they are then required to reduce weight by dumping fuel before landing back on the same runway if they need to return to their starting point for any reason.

It's generally true that the takeoff run will be longer than the landing roll for a given weight, unless there's a major balls-up by the pilot, of course!

EDIT: this is probably more of a PPRUNE question than a Railforums question but I thought I'd put it out there nonetheless!
 
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fowler9

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A fascinating topic.

Runway length is, of course, a fixed value for any particular runway.

Whether that runway length is sufficient for a given aircraft to land is determined by a calculation, starting with the aircraft's landing distance required at a given weight and applying safety factors such as runway length (e.g. must be capable of being down and stopped within 67% of runway length available on a dry runway), elevation, density altitude, runway gradient, contamination etc.

I wonder if it might be possible for certain aircraft, in certain configurations, to have a takeoff distance required that is less than the landing distance required, when the corrections are applied. I've actually put this question to a mate who flies 75/6s for a living and having consulted his performance manual he reckons, for those types, with a lightly loaded aircraft on a wet/contaminated runway, you could approach a situation where take-off distance required is around the same as landing distance required. Does anyone on here know of any aircraft types/configurations where LDR exceeds TDR?

On a related note it is, of course, a common occurrence for aircraft to get airborne at a weight that far exceeds their max structural landing weight, which is why they are then required to reduce weight by dumping fuel before landing back on the same runway if they need to return to their starting point for any reason.

It's generally true that the takeoff run will be longer than the landing roll for a given weight, unless there's a major balls-up by the pilot, of course!

Does anything taking off and landing on an American Super Carrier count? The space allowed for them to land seems to be greater than that for them to take off.
 

Bald Rick

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Does anything taking off and landing on an American Super Carrier count? The space allowed for them to land seems to be greater than that for them to take off.

They do have a bit of help with both operations!
 

Bromley boy

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They do have a bit of help with both operations!

Yes indeed. Catapaults and arrestor wires are cheating, for the purposes of the question. So are Harrier-style ski jumps and vertical take-off and landing capability, for that matter!
 
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gsnedders

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On a related note it is, of course, a common occurrence for aircraft to get airborne at a weight that far exceeds their max structural landing weight, which is why they are then required to reduce weight by dumping fuel before landing back on the same runway if they need to return to their starting point for any reason.

That's not strictly true: certification requires the landing gear to be able to deal with a landing at MTOW, albeit at a lower sink rate than at MLW (but still well over typical landing sink rates), though typically any landing over MLW requires a full inspection of the landing gear and airframe. Given a time-critical emergency, you're going to be landing regardless of whether you're overweight or not, and not all aircraft have the ability to dump fuel.
 

atillathehunn

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That's not strictly true: certification requires the landing gear to be able to deal with a landing at MTOW, albeit at a lower sink rate than at MLW (but still well over typical landing sink rates), though typically any landing over MLW requires a full inspection of the landing gear and airframe. Given a time-critical emergency, you're going to be landing regardless of whether you're overweight or not, and not all aircraft have the ability to dump fuel.

I suppose that's the difference between a good landing and a great landing.

A good landing is any landing you can walk away from.

A great landing is where they can re-use the plane.
 

Bromley boy

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I suppose that's the difference between a good landing and a great landing.

A good landing is any landing you can walk away from.

A great landing is where they can re-use the plane.

Very true. There's nothing quite like hackneyed old aviation sayings!

There are old pilots, there are bold pilots, but there are no old-bold pilots.

The three most useless things in aviation are:

- runway behind you;
- altitude above you;
- fuel left in the bowser.

Any more for any more?
 

Bromley boy

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That's not strictly true: certification requires the landing gear to be able to deal with a landing at MTOW, albeit at a lower sink rate than at MLW (but still well over typical landing sink rates), though typically any landing over MLW requires a full inspection of the landing gear and airframe. Given a time-critical emergency, you're going to be landing regardless of whether you're overweight or not, and not all aircraft have the ability to dump fuel.

I imagine that's very much the last option of last resort, as the damage sustained would be extensive, and extremely expensive!

Circling to burn-off fuel is an option for aircraft that cannot dump fuel.
 
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gsnedders

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I imagine that's very much the last option of last resort, as the damage sustained would be extensive, and extremely expensive!

Circling to burn-off fuel is an option for aircraft that cannot dump fuel.

Realistically, it all depends how time sensitive it is. As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence in general of any substantial damage being sustained (the design tolerances are pretty extreme!); an average landing at MTOW is still under half the design tolerance for the landing gear. In general, little more than a visual inspection is typically done: they're at the end of the day built to be able to withstand such landings (and a touch-and-go for a late rejected landing).

The bigger problem, I believe, is runway length: you have the same brakes and more mass to slow down.
 

fowler9

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They do have a bit of help with both operations!

Yeah but a catapult assisted take off on an Emirates A380 at JLA could be a laugh. Probably need to use Fiddlers Ferry Power Station to power it but it could surely be done. :D
 

Bromley boy

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Realistically, it all depends how time sensitive it is. As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence in general of any substantial damage being sustained (the design tolerances are pretty extreme!); an average landing at MTOW is still under half the design tolerance for the landing gear. In general, little more than a visual inspection is typically done: they're at the end of the day built to be able to withstand such landings (and a touch-and-go for a late rejected landing).

The bigger problem, I believe, is runway length: you have the same brakes and more mass to slow down.

Yes you're quite right, the below linked doc sums it up well, particularly this passage:

"Obviously, landing at weights above the maximum design landing weight reduces the normal performance margins. An overweight landing with an engine inoperative or a system failure may be less desirable than landing below maximum landing weight. Yet, delaying the landing with a malfunctioning system or engine failure in order to reduce weight or jettison fuel may expose the airplane to additional system deterioration that can make the situation worse. The pilot in command is in the best position to assess all relevant factors and determine the best course of action."

I stand by my previous point that an overweight landing is an undesirable event but I accept that damage, even at MTOW, is unlikely. I guess it very much depends on the type of emergency, landing gear problems and an overweight landing is highly undesirable and possibly highly dangerous. Whereas engine failure, for example, would be a different matter when the priority is getting the aircraft onto the ground.

Interesting also to note from the same doc that the requirement for a fuel dumping system in the US (I imagine the same in EASA land) is determined by the ability of the aircraft to achieve the required climb gradient following a missed approach and go-around from an aborted overweight landing at MTOW, less 15 mins worth of fuel.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_3_07/article_03_2.html
 
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Stompehh

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Interesting also to note from the same doc that the requirement for a fuel dumping system in the US (I imagine the same in EASA land) is determined by the ability of the aircraft to achieve the required climb gradient following a missed approach and go around from an aborted overweight landing at MTOW, less 15 mins worth of fuel.

Indeed it is. As far as I'm aware no currently produced large commercial aircraft has jettison as a mandatory function as they all meet the climb requirements.

The main reason to have it these days is actually for commercial reasons. If you have a non-emergency issue which means you need to land, without jettison you need to waste a lot of time burning off fuel, delaying the aircraft further. If it's an emergency, fuel jettison can still help by reducing the risk of structural damage and the level of inspection necessary upon an overweight landing.
 

Bromley boy

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Indeed it is. As far as I'm aware no currently produced large commercial aircraft has jettison as a mandatory function as they all meet the climb requirements.

Interesting. I seem to remember reading that the BAE 146/RJ85 (obviously no longer produced) was fitted with this due to lacking climb performance, despite having four engines.
 

Tetchytyke

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Yeah but a catapult assisted take off on an Emirates A380 at JLA could be a laugh. Probably need to use Fiddlers Ferry Power Station to power it but it could surely be done. :D

Now if they could use a catapult to get an A380 out of Barra... :lol:
 

Western Lord

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Indeed it is. As far as I'm aware no currently produced large commercial aircraft has jettison as a mandatory function as they all meet the climb requirements.

The main reason to have it these days is actually for commercial reasons. If you have a non-emergency issue which means you need to land, without jettison you need to waste a lot of time burning off fuel, delaying the aircraft further. If it's an emergency, fuel jettison can still help by reducing the risk of structural damage and the level of inspection necessary upon an overweight landing.

It is worth noting that the Boeing 737 does not and never has had fuel dump capability.
 

atillathehunn

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Now if they could use a catapult to get an A380 out of Barra... :lol:

Water skies on the bottom as well for both the Barra and Liverpool approach.



In wildly unrelated news, Ukraine International are starting flights from Kiev to Manchester. Four days a week, terrible, terrible timings. Leave Kiev at 20.10, arrive Manchester 22.30; leave Manchester 01.55 arrive Kiev 07.20.

Assume a 737.
 

fowler9

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Water skies on the bottom as well for both the Barra and Liverpool approach.



In wildly unrelated news, Ukraine International are starting flights from Kiev to Manchester. Four days a week, terrible, terrible timings. Leave Kiev at 20.10, arrive Manchester 22.30; leave Manchester 01.55 arrive Kiev 07.20.

Assume a 737.

Now that I would love to do. Just being lazy but any idea how much they are charging?
 

atillathehunn

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Now that I would love to do. Just being lazy but any idea how much they are charging?

I've by no means done an exhaustive search, but they are coming in a lot higher than the competition.

Of course no one is under cutting Ryanair, who have tickets for their new direct service from £22 one-way.

Ukraine International are at about £230 return. KLM are coming in at about £170 with a connection in AMS, BA hovering around the same as Ukraine International.
 

fowler9

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I've by no means done an exhaustive search, but they are coming in a lot higher than the competition.

Of course no one is under cutting Ryanair, who have tickets for their new direct service from £22 one-way.

Ukraine International are at about £230 return. KLM are coming in at about £170 with a connection in AMS, BA hovering around the same as Ukraine International.

Blimey, where is the Ryanair light from? Speaking of places in that part of the world I am in the market for reasonably priced flights to Yerevan in Armenia. Any recommendations?
 

atillathehunn

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Blimey, where is the Ryanair light from? Speaking of places in that part of the world I am in the market for reasonably priced flights to Yerevan in Armenia. Any recommendations?

Also from Manchester! Four times a week as well. Kiev might be well be worth a little visit.
For Yerevan try LOT or Austrian. Both good options. The coffee is good on Austrian.
 
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