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Wrexham redouble

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Ships

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Thanks be for the end of the longest smash and grab raid in Welsh history.
I. K. Brunel built the London - Bristol line faster and for less money:).
Do you think they will have the cheek to ask for extra to renew the old jointed track?:)

No as I said it's being done as a domestic renewal....
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Just an update: 90 mph running has commenced over a short section between Gobowen & Shrewsbury.

Checked out the line speed upgrades on the Chester-Shrewsbury line today.
About 14 miles of the 18-mile Gobowen-Shrewsbury section has gone up from 60/70MU to 90mph.
This starts south of Whittington, with a short dip to 60/70MU half way, over two crossings (Baschurch, Eyton), and finishes at the west end of the long embankment before Coton Hill.
The mid-way dip to 70 must be down to level crossing controls and/or signal sighting.
Gerald in particular will benefit from going from 60 to 90 (mostly) over this section.

Between the new junction at Rossett and Saltney Jn (Down, northbound), speed goes up from 60mph to 60/80MU at Rossett, and then to a full 90mph after a mile or so.
But then back to 60 before the A483 overbridge, so only a couple of miles of higher speed.
Southbound, the Up line is signed for 90mph from just after Saltney Jn to south of the A483 bridge, however this whole stretch has a 60mph TSR, so no change for the time being. There is then a mile or so of 60/70MU to Rossett.
Presumably the northbound line will extend its 90mph zone towards Saltney when the mile or so of jointed track between Balderton and Green Lane is replaced.
The project works site at Rossett is still active. All 4 upgraded level crossings are now open again.

So overall, better than was feared at one time.
I wonder when the 5 minutes gained from the two schemes will be knocked off the schedules.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Is redoubling from Rossett to Wrexham likely to happen in CP6?

Only if the WG funds it.
It's the kind of development the WG would do if it got a backhander as a result of the DUP deal for Northern Ireland.
But it looks like that door is shut.

There's a piece on this and other potential regional upgrades in the July Modern Railways.
It might get more traction when the Halton Curve is open, as that's the time when more stock should become available.
Before then, ATW can only run the current level of services.
 

Rhydgaled

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It might get more traction when the Halton Curve is open
Which is supposed to be Dec 2018 I believe but I think the only DMUs possibly available by then are the 172s from London Overground. If the new operator can't get them on day 1 of the new franchise in October 2018 I doubt they'll have enough staff trainned on 172s to use them by Dec 2018.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Which is supposed to be Dec 2018 I believe but I think the only DMUs possibly available by then are the 172s from London Overground. If the new operator can't get them on day 1 of the new franchise in October 2018 I doubt they'll have enough staff trainned on 172s to use them by Dec 2018.

I expect they'll be 2x150s which fall out of the GWR/Scotrail cascades towards Northern, sub-let to W&B.
Some 185s might have come free by then.
I can't see 172s coming to the area.
 

edwin_m

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There's an article in July's Modern Railways about developments in the area - but speculative ideas rather than firm proposals. It indicates that the doubling has led to a performance improvement and that the bit between Wrexham and the southern problem bridge might be doubled. However the preferred solution in the article is a west to south chord at Shotton which would allow some North-South trains to avoid Chester entirely. Perhaps good for Welsh politics, not so sure about attracting passengers.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There's an article in July's Modern Railways about developments in the area - but speculative ideas rather than firm proposals. It indicates that the doubling has led to a performance improvement and that the bit between Wrexham and the southern problem bridge might be doubled. However the preferred solution in the article is a west to south chord at Shotton which would allow some North-South trains to avoid Chester entirely. Perhaps good for Welsh politics, not so sure about attracting passengers.

I think the Shotton chord proposal is nonsense.
Traffic happy to avoid Chester (and its connections) would be tiny.
It's still the case that every journey from the North Wales coast to Shrewsbury and south/eastwards is still faster via Chester and Crewe than via Wrexham.
 

berneyarms

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I think the Shotton chord proposal is nonsense.
Traffic happy to avoid Chester (and its connections) would be tiny.
It's still the case that every journey from the North Wales coast to Shrewsbury and south/eastwards is still faster via Chester and Crewe than via Wrexham.

I think you mean that were the services routed via Crewe they would be quicker - connecting time at Crewe means that switching trains there does take longer.

Chester - Shrewsbury via Wrexham is 55 minutes

Chester - Shrewsbury via Crewe (changing trains) is 1 hour 2 mins. Without a change it would be in the region of 51-52 minutes - not that big a difference to be honest.
 

PHILIPE

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Which is supposed to be Dec 2018 I believe but I think the only DMUs possibly available by then are the 172s from London Overground. If the new operator can't get them on day 1 of the new franchise in October 2018 I doubt they'll have enough staff trainned on 172s to use them by Dec 2018.

Even though Overground have such a small fleet, I doubt any other TOC would be happy to maintain such a small fleet.
 

craigybagel

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I think you mean that were the services routed via Crewe they would be quicker - connecting time at Crewe means that switching trains there does take longer.

Chester - Shrewsbury via Wrexham is 55 minutes

Chester - Shrewsbury via Crewe (changing trains) is 1 hour 2 mins. Without a change it would be in the region of 51-52 minutes - not that big a difference to be honest.

I'm assuming they meant journeys to places like Birmingham, which are indeed quicker via Crewe from North Wales even with the double connection than by staying on the "direct" service.

Incidentally, there are a couple of trains that go Shrewsbury-Crewe-Chester, 1621 and 1821 Cardiff-Chester, which take 60 and 55 minutes respectively, albeit presumably with some end of journey padding involved.
 
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craigybagel

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Even though Overground have such a small fleet, I doubt any other TOC would be happy to maintain such a small fleet.

To be fair, ATW already have an identically sized micro fleet in the 153s, although admittedly the difference between them and the rest of the sprinter fleet is probably not as large as that between 172s and any other unit would be.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I'm assuming they meant journeys to places like Birmingham, which are indeed quicker via Crewe from North Wales even with the double connection than by staying on the "direct" service.
Incidentally, there are a couple of trains that go Shrewsbury-Crewe-Chester, 1621 and 1821 Cardiff-Chester, which take 60 and 55 minutes respectively, albeit presumably with some end of journey padding involved.

When "Gerald" is diverted at Chester to run via Crewe (it happens), it can reach Shrewsbury in a faster time than the booked route via Wrexham, which involves a reverse at Chester.
 

Rhydgaled

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I expect they'll be 2x150s which fall out of the GWR/Scotrail cascades towards Northern, sub-let to W&B.
Some 185s might have come free by then.
I can't see 172s coming to the area.
According to what I found online (probably in the TPE franchise agreement), the first class 185s are not expected off-lease until November 2019, but the full total of 22 sets are not due off-lease all at once, some are expected to stay untiil March 2020.

As for 150s, the Halton curve service itself could still be worked by pairs of 150s with the 172s used elsewhere on the W&B franchise. In terms of your suggestion, do we have any idea whether Northern would be willing to do a sub-lease of 150s to W&B?

Even though Overground have such a small fleet, I doubt any other TOC would be happy to maintain such a small fleet.
Fair point, but is any current Turbostar operator in a position to take on the 172/0s and pass on eight 2-car class 15x units to Wales & Borders? I don't think so, and I'm not aware of any other DMUs due off-lease by December 2018 to allow the new W&B franchise to run a Halton curve service from that date. ScotRail has five 156s which may come off lease in December 2018, but that still means a delay to the Halton curve service for staff trainning as ATW don't have any 156s.
 

kieron

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However the preferred solution in the article is a west to south chord at Shotton which would allow some North-South trains to avoid Chester entirely.
I don't suppose local residents would be very keen on that idea. Does the article propose it because it would be quicker than going via Chester (which would itself be quicker if trains weren't so often timed to sit there for 10 minutes or more), or because it would attract lots of passengers from between Wrexham and Shotton?
Chester - Shrewsbury via Crewe (changing trains) is 1 hour 2 mins. Without a change it would be in the region of 51-52 minutes - not that big a difference to be honest.
You may not even get that. I've been on a few trains diverted via Crewe instead of Wrexham, and they always took a few minutes longer than normal to get to Chester going north.
 

Rhydgaled

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No chance of Vivarail 230s?
I hope not, otherwise the electrification of the ValleyLines could be in serious jepaordy. As a stop-gap until electrification they would be useful on the ValleyLines (I don't think there is anywhere above 60mph is there?) to free up 150s for the Halton curve but how long a lease does Vivarail require to justify the costs of modifying the D-stock? Class 230s don't have an OHLE-power option to keep them useful after electrification.

I would guess that Northern would let ATW have as many 142's as was needed
That could actually be a possibility; the Northern franchise agreement has the lease end date as 31st December 2019, but that is followed by a class 142 release profile which has 5 units released 10/11/2018 with another 19 following on 08/12/2018. Would it be politically acceptable though or would the WAG prefer to postpone the Halton curve service than increase the Pacer fleet?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The WG has a strong interest in the Halton Curve service, but it's Merseytravel who is the sponsor for the initial service.
It might well fit in the scope of the new W&B franchise, but it's up to Merseytravel to do a deal with a TOC to run the initial service.
They could contract Northern to do that (they already operate the Helsby service and the summer parliamentary service).
Or they could contract ATW.
I think Northern will have the more flexible rolling stock options over the next 18 months, with all the internal and external cascades in train.
 

craigybagel

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(I don't think there is anywhere above 60mph is there?)

There's a little bit from Heath down to Queen Street that's 75, but as I've pointed out several times the 60mph top is not the issue it's made out to be, given that if there's any kind of hill or lots of stations around most 75mph DMUs won't get over 60 very much anyway.
 

8H

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With a curve that takes a train off the North Wales coast and off to Wrexham via Shotton High Level surely there is a possibility of then reversing at Wrexham and going back along the coast via Chester giving us a circular North Wales metro stopping service. A curve in these circumstances would be just as useful for local services as for long distance time savings by NW to SW trains avoiding Chester?
 

Gareth Marston

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With a curve that takes a train off the North Wales coast and off to Wrexham via Shotton High Level surely there is a possibility of then reversing at Wrexham and going back along the coast via Chester giving us a circular North Wales metro stopping service. A curve in these circumstances would be just as useful for local services as for long distance time savings by NW to SW trains avoiding Chester?

Aaaghh but we have to pretend everyone wants to travel to Cardiff.......
 

kieron

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Aaaghh but we have to pretend everyone wants to travel to Cardiff.......
Stuff Cardiff. You have to pretend (or is it provide for?) people want to go to Wrexham Central.

To be honest, I'm struggling to thing of a problem which this would solve. Any ideas?
 
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