Alstom reveals fuel-cell EMU concept

edwin_m · 22 Sep 2016

jopsuk said:
Compressed hydrogen, depending upon how compressed it is, can be more dense than air. Then you add the weight of the pressure vessel to contain it.

In the unlikely event of a train carrying hydrogen at atmospheric pressure, its weight would be reduced compared with the "empty" condition but the hydrogen would still contribute to its mass. The power needed to accelerate a train at a particular rate depends on the mass not the weight.

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SpacePhoenix · 22 Sep 2016

In a crash would a loco or DMU powered by hydrogen be any more liable to catch fire and/or explode (Ladbroke Grove type scenario where the OLE ignites the fuel)?

Flying Snail · 22 Sep 2016

SpacePhoenix said:
In a crash would a loco or DMU powered by hydrogen be any more liable to catch fire and/or explode (Ladbroke Grove type scenario where the OLE ignites the fuel)?

Hydrogen is much more flammable than diesel but for a number of reasons it would be unlikely to have the same devastating effect. It needs to be stored at very high pressure so would be in a much stronger tank far more resistant to breaking. Even if it was punctured it would immediately expand to it's atmospheric state so would not create a large ground level fire for any length of time. It would burn quickly and flame out, not fuel a sustained burn as spilt diesel does if it is ignited.

You certainly would not want to be within the range of it's burn at the moment it ignited but it would be unlikely to generate a fire that could set a railway carriage alight in the way a pool of burning liquid fuel would.

billio · 23 Sep 2016

Perhaps the hydrogen tanks and fuel cells are on the roof to minimise risk of fire arising from leakage, the escaping hydrogen rising very quickly away from the vehicle. However, a leak inside a tunnel might be more serious.

Tanks on the roof might also be easier to refill. Manufacturers of hydrogen powered bikes claim very quick recharge times - of the order of a few minutes rather than the hours required for batteries.

I wonder if this technology might be more useful applied to trams, removing the need for catenary in city centres. This would simplify the building of new tracks and avoid the visual intrusion of catenary. A visit to Bordeaux shows the advantage of powering trams without catenary in terms of preventing visual intrusion on the citiscape. (Power is taken from an "intelligent" electrified strip on the roadway)

broadgage · 23 Sep 2016

randyrippley said:
I sincerely hope there is no free hydrogen in the atmosphere........

The atmosphere does contain a very little free hydrogen, it is produced in the upper air by intense ultraviolet light breaking up water molecules.
Natural gas also contains a little hydrogen, and some escapes into the air.

The concentration of free hydrogen in the air is far below that needed for it to burn or explode.

edwin_m · 23 Sep 2016

broadgage said:
The concentration of free hydrogen in the air is far below that needed for it to burn or explode.

That's good to know.

I read somewhere that the reason there is so little hydrogen in the air is because it is light enough to escape out into space.

thenorthern · 23 Sep 2016

What would be useful for a Hydrogen train if there were "Hydrogen Troughs" similar to Water Troughs that there were in the days of steam so that the train could fill up en-route. I am aware though that such a thing would be near impossible given that Hydrogen is a gas not a liquid.

najaB · 23 Sep 2016

edwin_m said:
I read somewhere that the reason there is so little hydrogen in the air is because it is light enough to escape out into space.

That. And the fact that it's just such good darn friends with Oxygen. Get them together in a threesome and they'll stick together forever (well, a significant percentage of the age of the Earth at least - a lot of the water in your body was once in a dinosaur).

MarkyT · 23 Sep 2016

thenorthern said:
What would be useful for a Hydrogen train if there were "Hydrogen Troughs" similar to Water Troughs that there were in the days of steam so that the train could fill up en-route. I am aware though that such a thing would be near impossible given that Hydrogen is a gas not a liquid.

One of the big benefits of hydrogen for transport, touted by its enthusiasts, is the fast recharge time compared to battery electric. With the 700km range quoted up thread recharge on the go shouldn't be a issue for the local rail operations this particular little lightweight train appears to be designed for. However, if a top up is required during the operating day, why not situate a refuel point at a station platform, preferably a terminal or junction with a fairly generous layover where passengers can be excluded between public trips during the procedure. Fast recharge could be carried out in service. Would that be sufficiently safe with this new fuel? Diesel refueling is not usually carried out at platforms I know, but is that more to do with space for tanks, bunds and the potential 'mess' in case of spillage rather than safety as such? Cleaner hydrogen might be subject to fewer of these constraints. Barring that, another option would be to try and sync fueling stops with those for toilet and water tank servicing, i.e in addition to the water and sewage pipes crew would connect a fuel line during a standard pit stop.

Olaf · 30 Apr 2017

A recent update on progress on testing:

The world's first zero-emissions hydrogen train is coming
http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transp...Product sheet - English.pdf?epslanguage=en-GB
- 2017-03-22

A zero-emissions train that runs on just steam and condensed water has successfully completed its first test run in Germany.
...
Testing was carried out on the company’s own track in Salzgitter, Lower Saxony, with passenger test runs set to begin at the start of 2018.

The brochure can be found here:
http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transp...Product sheet - English.pdf?epslanguage=en-GB

This article mentions pre-existing examples:
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2016/09/germany-hydrogen-passenger-train/501575/

This new hydrogen train is thus perfect for shorter, quieter stretches of the network that electrification hasn’t yet reached. Germany’s first Coradia iLint models are thus being tried out first on an internationally obscure 60-mile link between Buxtehude, a city lying just beyond Hamburg’s southern suburbs, and the small port and beach town of Cuxhaven. Outside this region, three other German states signed letters of intent in 2014 expressing a serious interest in adopting the model, and so the trains could soon be a fixture across many of Germany’s smaller lines.

Beyond the hydrogen tank and fuel cell, the train’s design is no different from a successful Alstom train already in service that can transport 150 sitting and 300 standing. Meanwhile, some existing small light rail systems already run on hydrogen power and fuel cells. The tiny Oranjestad Streetcar on the Caribbean island of Aruba started running in winter 2012, while the larger Dubai Trolley began partial service last year. Neither of these, however, are on anything like the scale of Germany’s new train.

One approach would put product of the gas at a line-side depot feed off of the grid. To justify that approach, you would need sufficient demand to cover the costs, all of which would have to be worked out.

An example of possible line-side plant is detailed here:

Audi’s New e-gas Plant Comes Online
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1085024_audis-new-e-gas-plant-comes-online
- 2013-06-23

Audi’s revolutionary e-gas plant, first announced in May, 2011, has finally come online. The plant can create a variety of energy sources including pure electricity, hydrogen or a synthetic gas similar to natural gas which Audi calls e-gas.

The plant, located in Werlte, Germany, will produce about 1,000 metric tons of e-gas per year, chemically binding some 2,800 metric tons of CO2. That's roughly as much a forest of over 220,000 beech trees absorbs in a year. Water and oxygen are the only by-products.

It is anticipated that the e-gas generated will power 1,500 new Audi A3 Sportback g-tron vehicles over a distance of about 9,300 miles each, with each of the miles driven being C02 neutral.

Again, Engineers and Accountant would need to go over proposal sin detail. It is interesting though that one of the Japanese combines is looking to scale up such a engine - possibly for marine applications first.

If a robust solution can be built at reasonable cost, this would impact on the Electrification program, but not in the near future.

sonorguy · 2 May 2017

thenorthern said:
Top Gear one tried a Hydrogen car I think I can't remember when though.

Problem with Hydrogen is the same as every other carbon neutral fuel source it exists but you just can't beat the internal combustion engine with its ability to refill quickly and the amount of energy from you get from its fuel.

I read somewhere that the the first cars to hold the land speed record were electric but over 100 years later we still use the internal combustion engine.

For the railways I personally think though electrification is a better option for motive power than Hydrogen in the future.

It was a Honda who ran an experimental fleet both in the US and UK around Swindon, if I remember rightly. The programme quite liked the car, if I remember correctly, issues with fuel production/storage/supply not withstanding.

CdBrux · 27 Sep 2017

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/alstom-liverpool-hydrogen-train-trials/

Suggestions that Halton curve for Liverpool to Chester could be a good UK trial site supported by Altsoms new Widnes facility.

The DfT’s recent scaling back of rail electrification plans means that there will be greater demand for non-electric trains, including alternatives to diesel.

Alstom UK managing director for trains and modernisation Mike Hulme said: “We’re working with Liverpool city region to establish a source of hydrogen from the refineries in the Ellesmere Port area and we believe that the Liverpool area would be a good test case.”

Hulme suggested Liverpool-Chester services as a suitable trial for the hydrogen train. Network Rail’s Halton Curve project is currently under way to restore a section of track near Frodsham in Cheshire, making possible a new hourly service between Liverpool and Chester from December next year. Alstom’s new Widnes technology centre is nearby, and north-west England has an established rail engineering skills base, he said.

He added: “There has been dialogue with Liverpool city region and various Roscos about how we can develop a demonstrator. It is an option which we’re pushing quite heavily, and we seem to be getting some traction.”

Alstom’s Coradia iLint train, powered by a hydrogen fuel cell, is currently undergoing tests in Germany and the Czech Republic, with the aim of conducting passenger test runs on the Buxtehude–Bremervörde–Bremerhaven–Cuxhaven route early in 2018. Earlier this year (March 2017) it perfromed a successful test at 80 km/h on Alstom’s test track in Salzgitter, Lower Saxony.

Hulme said that the question of emissions would drive a search for alternatives to diesel technology, and questioned whether emissions from diesel trains around key terminus stations such as Euston would be tolerated in the medium to longer term. “I suggest they won’t, so there has to be an alternative technology. Clearly hydrogen could be one of those technologies.”

pemma · 27 Sep 2017

Which ROSCO is obtaining the bi-mode FLIRTs for Anglia? Porterbrook are developing the 319 bi-mode or 769, so there must be at least 1 ROSCO who won't have any local bi-mode trains as things currently stand. Might be an opportunity for them?

edwin_m · 27 Sep 2017

The FLIRTs are with Rock Rail, a relatively recent entry to the ROSCO market.

Alstom has no recent UK main line rail product and appears to be about to merge its rail interests with Siemens. So if this technology ever appears in the UK it might be inside a redundant 707.

Roast Veg · 27 Sep 2017

He added: There has been dialogue with Liverpool city region and various Roscos about how we can develop a demonstrator. It is an option which were pushing quite heavily, and we seem to be getting some traction.

I do appreciate a terrible pun when I see one.

xotGD · 27 Sep 2017

Forget electrolysis - to produce large quantities of Hydrogen then you need to use steam reforming of natural gas or coal gasification. While these processes generate CO2 as a waste stream, they can be made 'green' through the addition of Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS).

InTheEastMids · 27 Sep 2017

xotGD said:
Forget electrolysis - to produce large quantities of Hydrogen then you need to use steam reforming of natural gas or coal gasification. While these processes generate CO2 as a waste stream, they can be made 'green' through the addition of Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS).

...should CCS ever happen at the scale necessary. Many experts (e.g. the ETI) believe it's needed, but there's little sign of the progress needed to get it going (see cancelled CCS projects like White Rose, or Maasvlakte).

Maybe there'll be more progress on CCS for industry, rather than power generation.

Renewable electrolysis - at a pretty basic level, if you've guaranteed a renewable generator, maybe £57.50 / MWh (at 2012 prices), then you obviously can't get below that as a cost of hydrogen, and given the various losses (electrolysis, compression, transport) - this hydrogen is going to cost in the region of £100/MWh (in 2012 prices)

For comparison, a litre of diesel for your car costs about £1.16 today, and contains 11.6 kWh of energy, conveniently that's £100/MWh - almost exactly the same.

So the upshot of this, is that if you believe that rail could use renewable hydrogen instead of electrification, you also need to believe that if the TOCs bought their diesel at the local BP filling station, there still wouldn't be a case to electrify.

Olaf · 28 Sep 2017

Domh245 said:
If I remember rightly, Fuel Cells tend to be rather range limited compared to diesel engines. They also require refuelling stops to top fill up the hydrogen whilst a Battery Pack can be recharged on the move. I fail to see what market it's going for here, Very short range IPEMU?

It's early days with the technology, but in the last two years Toshiba, and I think Honda have launched large research projects to convert the technology into viable product given that it is now sufficiently advanced and expectation that costs can be made competitive to other power units. *

* Not sure on the exact parties involved.

Alstom reveals fuel-cell EMU concept

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