Aviation Discussion

AndrewP · 28 Apr 2017

I have always found business class in Emirates from Newcastle busy when I have used it and from the Harrogate area the drive to the airport avoids the horrors of the M62 to Manchester.

Although I have mostly transferred in Dubai or driven to other parts of the Emirates when we went on holiday to the area we stayed in Ras al Khaimah and drove to the metro when we went to Dubai itself and found it a good balance. Great destination for the family and I find the Emirati lovely people (shame about some of the British ex pats!)

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FQTV · 28 Apr 2017

Arctic Troll said:
Oh I don't know, I stayed at the Atlantis on honeymoon and it was glorious. Gloriously tacky, but glorious.

And it isn't much more expensive than some of the higher end resorts in the Canaries these days. And the travel time isn't much more.

It's probably all sorts, there's a small but niche oil and gas engineering sector in Newcastle these days, both GE and Siemens have a big presence.

I can't imagine Emirates sell many business class and first class seats at full value, mind. Though I'm not sure I'd pay full value to travel on their crappy business class seat on the 777.

Very true on the cost comparison with The Canaries, as I mentioned. They do operate their lowest-yield configured aircraft though, with only 42 Business Class seats. Even at 100% load, that's less than half a seat per network destination point.

atillathehunn said:
I hadn't realised there still an energy sector there. Will probably fill up business class quite a bit.

There's also (amongst others) marine, SatCom, automotive, pharma and, if not all that obviously, high-value seafood too.

atillathehunn said:
I would have thought the hassle of getting a pint there, though, might deter some of the more traditional clientele.

There's no difficulty in hotels and bars (the latter usually being affiliated to hotels or clubs) but the lack of public 'displays' of having consumed is a positive plus for the younger family market. Much less stressful than shielding the kids' eyes and ears from stag parties on the rampage in Playa de las Americas.

gsnedders said:
I thought at most of the European-focused hotels booze flowed relatively freely? (That said, my understanding could be totally wrong. Being LGBT rather lessens the appeal of the area to me.)

A very small number (by percentage) of hotels in the UAE are dry. And, if I were to crassly generalise, those hotels would be rather short of staff (and to a lesser extent, customers) if being LGBT was a complete no-no. If anything, I'd identify general misogyny as a more pervasive attitude, and that's promulgated by a goodly proportion of expats as well.

Neil Williams said:
Not one little bit of the ethos appeals to me, and if you just want to go somewhere hot there are a million other options.

If I wanted a stopover I'd be looking at South East Asia.

Where are these million other options from Newcastle? I'd also hate you to find out about attitudes in much of South East Asia!

AndrewP said:
I have always found business class in Emirates from Newcastle busy when I have used it and from the Harrogate area the drive to the airport avoids the horrors of the M62 to Manchester.

Although I have mostly transferred in Dubai or driven to other parts of the Emirates when we went on holiday to the area we stayed in Ras al Khaimah and drove to the metro when we went to Dubai itself and found it a good balance. Great destination for the family and I find the Emirati lovely people (shame about some of the British ex pats!)

Agreed on all points, and to pick up on yours and a few others again regarding Business Class, generally it's not all that cheap at point of ticketing. However, Skywards upgrades out of Newcastle are often reasonably readily available, and a proactive upgrade at check-in tends to be around the £450 mark for Newcastle - Dubai vv.

It's the combination of all these things that keeps the flight running with good loads - again all within the overall context of this being an airline that doesn't 'need' to make a profit.

Bletchleyite · 28 Apr 2017

FQTV said:
Where are these million other options from Newcastle?

People in Newcastle are capable of travelling by car, coach, train, taxi and domestic flight to other airports, you know

Tetchytyke · 28 Apr 2017

atillathehunn said:
I would have thought the hassle of getting a pint there, though, might deter some of the more traditional clientele.

There's no hassle getting a beer. It costs, £12 for a Peroni at the Atlantis when I was there, but then again there are places in Newcastle that sell Peroni for a fiver now.

It's popular with Muslim families who want a bucket-and-spade holiday, for obvious reasons, when I was there a lot of families from places like Bradford and Bolton were having a whale of a time.

There is also the advantage that you don't get the public drunkenness, which keeps a lid on the exuberant behaviour.

As for LGBT rights, it's really not good, but I don't think it's any worse than the deep south of America, or the Carribbean, for instance. As with being unmarried there, be subtle and nothing happens. It's like that in much of the middle and far east. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

As for stopping over elsewhere to avoid the issues of "dirty money" and human rights abuses, that's fine, but where? Singapore? Hong Kong? Mumbai? Hmm.

I love Hong Kong and a Singapore Sling at Raffles is on my bucket list, but the money and the politics in both those places is as dodgy as Dubai.

atillathehunn · 28 Apr 2017

Arctic Troll said:
There's no hassle getting a beer. It costs, £12 for a Peroni at the Atlantis when I was there, but then again there are places in Newcastle that sell Peroni for a fiver now.

It's popular with Muslim families who want a bucket-and-spade holiday, for obvious reasons, when I was there a lot of families from places like Bradford and Bolton were having a whale of a time.

There is also the advantage that you don't get the public drunkenness, which keeps a lid on the exuberant behaviour.

As for LGBT rights, it's really not good, but I don't think it's any worse than the deep south of America, or the Carribbean, for instance. As with being unmarried there, be subtle and nothing happens. It's like that in much of the middle and far east. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

As for stopping over elsewhere to avoid the issues of "dirty money" and human rights abuses, that's fine, but where? Singapore? Hong Kong? Mumbai? Hmm.

I love Hong Kong and a Singapore Sling at Raffles is on my bucket list, but the money and the politics in both those places is as dodgy as Dubai.

£12 for a Peroni

Well for your honeymoon definitely worth the cost. Probably not much further removed from the prices of the upper end hotels in the Maldives or something.

The Dirty Money comment is entirely correct - stick London in your list though...

The LGBT thing isn't good, no one disagrees. Probably won't change anytime soon either.

Having said what I said about Dubai, I should echo that I would say the same about the Canaries - not my cup of tea.

The Muslim dollar - I was wrong to underestimate that. It's becoming more important no question.

gsnedders · 28 Apr 2017

Arctic Troll said:
As for LGBT rights, it's really not good, but I don't think it's any worse than the deep south of America, or the Carribbean, for instance.

You're far more likely to get in trouble with the authorities in the UAE than in the deep south, though neither are great more generally. Heck, see Gigi Gorgeous getting detained at the border for hours because her genitalia don't match the "F" in her passport and the immigration officers just not understanding how that could even be possible. For all the problems people have with the CBP in the US, the vast majority are college educated and reasonably smart: the mere existence of someone pre-op trans (or, hell, intersex) isn't going to lead to hours of questioning about how you exist.

But yes, I'm no more likely to go to the deep south or many parts of the Caribbean than I am Dubai. (Realistically, I'm far more likely to go to Dubai in transit than either of those, probably doing my best imitation of a macho man instead of something far more androgynous.)

atillathehunn · 28 Apr 2017

gsnedders said:
You're far more likely to get in trouble with the authorities in the UAE than in the deep south, though neither are great more generally. Heck, see Gigi Gorgeous getting detained at the border for hours because her genitalia don't match the "F" in her passport and the immigration officers just not understanding how that could even be possible. For all the problems people have with the CBP in the US, the vast majority are college educated and reasonably smart: the mere existence of someone pre-op trans (or, hell, intersex) isn't going to lead to hours of questioning about how you exist.

But yes, I'm no more likely to go to the deep south or many parts of the Caribbean than I am Dubai. (Realistically, I'm far more likely to go to Dubai in transit than either of those, probably doing my best imitation of a macho man instead of something far more androgynous.)

Making a big assumption here that you're male, but actually you're probably the least at risk. It's perfectly normal over there for men to hold hands with other men in public. Whereas women holding hands with women or men with women is frowned upon. Definitely no other public displays of affection, though. However, as others have highlighted, this is not something unique to the middle east.

ian959 · 30 Apr 2017

FQTV said:
Apologies for being late to the party on this one, but some thoughts on the economics of the Newcastle to Dubai route:

Sixish years ago, at an industry do, Emirates' GM said that the airline was uplifting over ten tonnes of high-value belly freight at least four times a week from Newcastle. That more than pays for the flight.

Emirates does not, by any rational comparison to European/US/Asian carriers *need* to make money.

Indeed, Emirates does operate to a different financial rationale than most airlines and that is something most people forget about them. When they started flying to Perth, it was a known fact that it was to capture the freight market. They were able to make money with A330s/777s purely on freight traffic alone. Any passenger traffic was simply cream on top...

It was purely the freight traffic that drove the service up to 3 times daily, until the advent of the A380 which pushed it back to 2 times daily.

Joe Paxton · 2 May 2017

atillathehunn said:
[...]
The Dirty Money comment is entirely correct - stick London in your list though...

Absolutely, well said.

Crawley Ben · 2 May 2017

Canadian airline WestJet have reached an agreement with Boeing to take on up to 20 787 Dreamliner aircraft. I wonder if they will replace the 767's currently in use for their long haul services to Gatwick etc?

http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1232

Cheers

Ben

atillathehunn · 3 May 2017

Crawley Ben said:
Canadian airline WestJet have reached an agreement with Boeing to take on up to 20 787 Dreamliner aircraft. I wonder if they will replace the 767's currently in use for their long haul services to Gatwick etc?

http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1232

Cheers

Ben

I believe TATL on a 767 is going to be very difficult if not impossible soon with new navigation requirements. I would imagine that they will replace them with 787s.

AlterEgo · 3 May 2017

I had the pleasure of flying BMI Regional from City of Derry to London Stansted yesterday afternoon on the first day of the route's operation.

What a breath of fresh air. A free (big) chocolate bar, free Magner's cider and cracking service from a happy cabin crew member. And on one of my favourite aircraft - an Embraer 145.

It made me wistful for the days of good old mainline BMI, an airline I used to use a lot when I was younger.

Derry (and NW Ireland as a whole) desperately needs the route to work. Let's hope.

Bletchleyite · 3 May 2017

atillathehunn said:
I believe TATL on a 767 is going to be very difficult if not impossible soon with new navigation requirements. I would imagine that they will replace them with 787s.

Shame, the 767 is a nice-sized aircraft with only one rubbish seat per row (2-3-2 economy layout).

atillathehunn · 3 May 2017

Neil Williams said:
Shame, the 767 is a nice-sized aircraft with only one rubbish seat per row (2-3-2 economy layout).

Yes. I'm not entirely sure why there is a new navigtion requirement, but c'est la vie.

When BA removed their 767 TATL services, they moved them to short haul routes around Europe, including on domestic UK runs, so not all bad.

Bletchleyite · 3 May 2017

Yeah, I'd pay extra for a 767 on a short haul.

atillathehunn · 3 May 2017

Neil Williams said:
Yeah, I'd pay extra for a 767 on a short haul.

I think I've seen posted elsewhere (possibly FT) that there is a list of probable services they operate on. Another good shout is the mid-haul config A321s (normally for TLV, AMM, BEY, DME) but occasionally find themselves onto short haul routes (I've seen them do MAN, ABZ, GLA, OSL etc).

atillathehunn · 3 May 2017

AlterEgo said:
I had the pleasure of flying BMI Regional from City of Derry to London Stansted yesterday afternoon on the first day of the route's operation.

What a breath of fresh air. A free (big) chocolate bar, free Magner's cider and cracking service from a happy cabin crew member. And on one of my favourite aircraft - an Embraer 145.

It made me wistful for the days of good old mainline BMI, an airline I used to use a lot when I was younger.

Derry (and NW Ireland as a whole) desperately needs the route to work. Let's hope.

Sounds good. Was there much by way of fanfare for the new operation? What were the loadings/fares like?

Does Ryanair offer a Stansted flight from Derry?

berneyarms · 3 May 2017

atillathehunn said:
Sounds good. Was there much by way of fanfare for the new operation? What were the loadings/fares like?

Does Ryanair offer a Stansted flight from Derry?

Ryanair have ended the Stansted-Derry route.

The BMI Regional service is a replacement.

AlterEgo · 3 May 2017

atillathehunn said:
Sounds good. Was there much by way of fanfare for the new operation? What were the loadings/fares like?

Does Ryanair offer a Stansted flight from Derry?

Ryanair pulled out of the route citing unsustainability a couple of months ago. They of course were operating a daily 737 into Stansted. They still fly to Glasgow and Liverpool but there's significant Friends and Family market there. The unsustainability of the Stansted route was - at a guess - because the business traffic didn't meet expectations in lieu of the slightly smaller FAF market.

The NI Executive is now subsidising BMI for this route and operating it as a PSO to the tune of £3.8m annually.

There was no fanfare as far as I could see, but I travelled on the afternoon flight and not the morning one. I would be surprised if the local rags didn't pick up on the morning flight. The security lane was adorned in BMI blue balloons though. I also spotted a BMI manager lurking, who I assume was there in the morning too to handle media enquiries etc.

Derry is a tiny airport and there were about 50 passengers for the flight (which was the only one leaving within a 10 hour time window!), so it wasn't hard to spot management.

I was chatting to the security staff who were very pleased the route was operating, not least for the future of the airfield, which is a very precarious operation. I suspect local politics will win out and Derry airport will survive long into the future (basically NW Ireland is devoid of good infrastructure, a grievance which goes way back to the 1950s and earlier and which actually formed a sub-grievance of the nascent Civil Rights campaign of the 1960s).

Load was alright, and I think I was the only enthusiast on the flight. Everyone else seemed to be "legitimate" traffic.

EDIT: The News Letter has picked up on the route: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/bu...-restored-as-new-bmi-service-begins-1-7943050 - obviously this was the morning flight.

The importance of a link between London and Londonderry has been highlighted today for the benefits to business and tourism as the new scheduled service between Stansted and City of Derry Airport (CoDA) began. ADVERTISING inRead invented by Teads Operated by bmi regional, the inaugural flight left from CoDA on Tuesday morning, marking the start of a regular twice daily service, with a once a day schedule on Saturday. Welcomed on board the first flight, the Mayor of Derry City and Strabane District Council Hilary McClintock said she was delighted to see the London link restored following the departure by Ryanair from CoDA last year. “Maintaining frequent, convenient and competitively priced air services to and from London is vitally important to the Council and the Airport and we believe that this route is vital for the future development of our regional economy and the social development of our region. “I would like to extend my best wishes to bmi regional and wish them every success for this route.” Roy Devine, Chairman of CoDA Operations said: “We are absolutely delighted to welcome bmi regional to City of Derry Airport – this is a very welcome boost for both the Airport and the wider North West region. “A direct air link with a London airport is imperative for this region - and its business community”.

Read more at: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/bu...-restored-as-new-bmi-service-begins-1-7943050

The Derry Journal also covered it: http://www.derryjournal.com/news/business/lift-off-for-derry-s-new-bmi-stansted-service-1-7943555

Bald Rick · 3 May 2017

Neil Williams said:
Yeah, I'd pay extra for a 767 on a short haul.

For short haul, BA run 767s on the busier flights LHR - AMS / FRA / NCE / ZRH (and other European destinations further afield). You will often find one on the last flight to EDI so that it is in position for the first southbound the following morning. Nice though the aircraft are, I would rather cycle to Edinburgh rather than use BA.

gsnedders · 3 May 2017

atillathehunn said:
Yes. I'm not entirely sure why there is a new navigtion requirement, but c'est la vie.

I presume growing amounts of traffic so you can get more traffic in the existing lanes by decreasing separation, which requires better navigation to maintain separation?

Butts · 3 May 2017

AlterEgo said:
Ryanair pulled out of the route citing unsustainability a couple of months ago. They of course were operating a daily 737 into Stansted. They still fly to Glasgow and Liverpool but there's significant Friends and Family market there. The unsustainability of the Stansted route was - at a guess - because the business traffic didn't meet expectations in lieu of the slightly smaller FAF market.

The NI Executive is now subsidising BMI for this route and operating it as a PSO to the tune of £3.8m annually.

There was no fanfare as far as I could see, but I travelled on the afternoon flight and not the morning one. I would be surprised if the local rags didn't pick up on the morning flight. The security lane was adorned in BMI blue balloons though. I also spotted a BMI manager lurking, who I assume was there in the morning too to handle media enquiries etc.

Derry is a tiny airport and there were about 50 passengers for the flight (which was the only one leaving within a 10 hour time window!), so it wasn't hard to spot management.

I was chatting to the security staff who were very pleased the route was operating, not least for the future of the airfield, which is a very precarious operation. I suspect local politics will win out and Derry airport will survive long into the future (basically NW Ireland is devoid of good infrastructure, a grievance which goes way back to the 1950s and earlier and which actually formed a sub-grievance of the nascent Civil Rights campaign of the 1960s).

Load was alright, and I think I was the only enthusiast on the flight. Everyone else seemed to be "legitimate" traffic.

EDIT: The News Letter has picked up on the route: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/bu...-restored-as-new-bmi-service-begins-1-7943050 - obviously this was the morning flight.

The Derry Journal also covered it: http://www.derryjournal.com/news/business/lift-off-for-derry-s-new-bmi-stansted-service-1-7943555

You forgot to mention the fare - BMI regional are normally quite expensive compared to Flybe for example on similar routes.

berneyarms · 3 May 2017

Butts said:
You forgot to mention the fare - BMI regional are normally quite expensive compared to Flybe for example on similar routes.

This is a PSO route so fares can start quite cheap.

Just do a few random searches on flybmi.com

AlterEgo · 3 May 2017

Butts said:
You forgot to mention the fare - BMI regional are normally quite expensive compared to Flybe for example on similar routes.

Fares start from £44 - much lower, because it's a PSO. It includes free 23kg baggage allowance and complimentary food. Sounds like a good fit for a business route.

atillathehunn · 4 May 2017

AlterEgo said:
Fares start from £44 - much lower, because it's a PSO. It includes free 23kg baggage allowance and complimentary food. Sounds like a good fit for a business route.

It would seem there are a certain number of subsidised seats. A return next week is over £300. Out on the first flight mid-week, back at the end of the week on the last flight is £306.

A random pair of dates in the summer is about £90 return, so £40 each way, ish.

atillathehunn · 4 May 2017

A little late to the party but both Royal Air Maroc and Oman Air have begun their Manchester service.

A 737 from Casablanca and an A330 from Muscat for now.

I don't know how the Royal Air Maroc service is doing load wise, but a friend's father works for Oman Air in Muscat and says the Muscat service did well on its first few days, and future bookings look healthy. Playing round with some dates, they are offering very competitive fares to various destinations. Not the biggest player out of the Gulf, but some interesting routes regardless.

atillathehunn · 4 May 2017

In other, other news an A350 has just taken off from Cardiff (seems to be in Airbus special livery, so not flying for an airline).

Sneak preview of the type of aircraft likely to operate the QR service? If so, I'll eat my words from before.

Stompehh · 4 May 2017

atillathehunn said:
In other, other news an A350 has just taken off from Cardiff (seems to be in Airbus special livery, so not flying for an airline).

Sneak preview of the type of aircraft likely to operate the QR service? If so, I'll eat my words from before.

It was MSN71 which is the second A350-1000 flight test aircraft. Just using Cardiff for fuel system testing (previously done in Filton before the runway closed).

atillathehunn · 4 May 2017

Stompehh said:
It was MSN71 which is the second A350-1000 flight test aircraft. Just using Cardiff for fuel system testing (previously done in Filton before the runway closed).

Ah that clears it up.

Crawley Ben · 12 May 2017

The board of directors at Norwegian Air have approved plans to create a Argentinian 'arm' of the business. Plans to operate domestic and international flights (international flights believed to be between Gatwick & Buenos Aires from what I've read elsewhere) could possibly be confirmed by the end of the year. The airline is awaiting the green light from the authorities in Argentina regarding issuing of an operating certificate.

Link below for anyone whose interested.

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/278771/norwegian-plots-low-cost-flights-from-argentina

Cheers

Ben

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