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The Friargate Line - GNR Derby

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Max287

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Hi guys

I was wondering if anybody might be able to point me in the direction of somewhere that I can find extensive information of the old GNR line through Derby, in particular from Friargate Station to Ilkeston? I'm aware that there was a book printed in 1989 by Mark Higginson which would probably be ideal, but it seems to be unavailable.

I was recently walking with my Dad along the Great Northern Greenaway on the old track bed through Breadsall. He is 80 this month and as a former railway employee, he has many memories of the line as it was.

However, our walk together (and a fresh set of eyes-I had never previously walked along there, despite being local!) brought up some detail he wasn't even aware of or had simply forgotten over time. For instance, as we reached Lime Lane where the path leaves the track bed, I became inquisitive as to where the line would have crossed Lime Lane. Some digging online when I got home revealed that there is a now filled-in tunnel at that spot called Morley Tunnel. It would be great to find out more about that stretch for my Dad.

Any info that anybody could give me, or a particular website that might be of use, would be hugely appreciated.

Cheers
 
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martinr1

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It is worth searching Youtube as I think you will find some footage of a rail tour on the route before it closed. Being of some vintage I was on the last train from Nottingham Victoria to Derby Friargate and have the ticket rack from Awsworth purchased from a sale of relics held in the old S&T depot at Derby Midland shortly after closure.

A sad loss of a route that would be most useful in today's world.

Martin
 
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John Webb

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"Forgotten Railways: Vol 2 The East Midlands" by P Howard Anderson (David and Charles, 1985, ISBN 0 946737 20 8) has some information about this line which may be of interest to you, although I would hesitate to call it 'extensive'!

A website worth looking at is, for example, http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2498664 where there are a number of photos of the old track bed. Unfortunately this line has not yet been covered by the Disused Stations website.

John Webb
 
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Max287

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martinr1 said:
It is worth searching Youtube as I think you will find some footage of a rail tour on the route before it closed. Being of some vintage I was on the last train from Nottingham Victoria to Derby Friargate and have the ticket rack from Awsworth purchased from a sale of relics held in the old S&T depot at Derby Midland shortly after closure.

A sad loss of a route that would be most useful in today's world.

Martin
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Hi Martin

Thanks ever so much for the video link, it is great to see trains running through the station. I agree the route would certainly be useful in today's world, such a shame that this and so many other old routes have been left to ruin. A walk along the footpath as it is today certainly makes for a pleasant way to spend an afternoon though :)
 
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Max287

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John Webb said:
"Forgotten Railways: Vol 2 The East Midlands" by P Howard Anderson (David and Charles, 1985, ISBN 0 946737 20 8) has some information about this line which may be of interest to you, although I would hesitate to call it 'extensive'!

A website worth looking at is, for example, http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2498664 where there are a number of photos of the old track bed. Unfortunately this line has not yet been covered by the Disused Stations website.

John Webb
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Hi John

Thanks for the info, I will take a look at that book for sure. Also for the link, I hadn't come across that site before.

I'd love to find some photgraphic evidence of the Morley Tunnel but there is very little written about it let alone photographed.
 
Senex

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Max287 said:
Hi guys

I was wondering if anybody might be able to point me in the direction of somewhere that I can find extensive information of the old GNR line through Derby, in particular from Friargate Station to Ilkeston? I'm aware that there was a book printed in 1989 by Mark Higginson which would probably be ideal, but it seems to be unavailable.

I was recently walking with my Dad along the Great Northern Greenaway on the old track bed through Breadsall. He is 80 this month and as a former railway employee, he has many memories of the line as it was.

However, our walk together (and a fresh set of eyes-I had never previously walked along there, despite being local!) brought up some detail he wasn't even aware of or had simply forgotten over time. For instance, as we reached Lime Lane where the path leaves the track bed, I became inquisitive as to where the line would have crossed Lime Lane. Some digging online when I got home revealed that there is a now filled-in tunnel at that spot called Morley Tunnel. It would be great to find out more about that stretch for my Dad.

Any info that anybody could give me, or a particular website that might be of use, would be hugely appreciated.

Cheers
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If you can get sight of it in a library, I'd recommend the Mark Higginson book very strongly indeed -- it's a really good and thorough treatment of the topic. There's one copy advertised on AbeBooks, but at £100 rather too much for all but the most dedicated book-collector, I suspect! If it's not in your local library, see if Inter-Library Loan can help.
 
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70014IronDuke

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martinr1 said:
...
A sad loss of a route that would be most useful in today's world.
Martin
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Would it? Serious question. Not saying that I wouldn't have liked to see it stay open, but why would it be so useful today, compared to, I don't know, Ripley to Little Eaton, to pluck a line out of the same area? (Although the latter line would in effect only be there for commuter traffic to Derby.)

Or how about Matlock to Chinley as a better comparison?
 
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1969_The Stephenson Locomotive Society organised a farewell tour of GNR lines in the Derby, Nottingham and Leen Valley areas, with super8 cine and stills camera, by Alan Thompson.
 
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RichmondCommu

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70014IronDuke said:
Would it? Serious question. Not saying that I wouldn't have liked to see it stay open, but why would it be so useful today, compared to, I don't know, Ripley to Little Eaton, to pluck a line out of the same area? (Although the latter line would in effect only be there for commuter traffic to Derby.)

Or how about Matlock to Chinley as a better comparison?
Click to expand...

I think it could be argued that Friargate station is closer to the city centre than the current station.

In my opinion Ripley isn't big enough to have ever considered reopening the branch, not to mention the fact that past Denby the track bed has pretty much vanished.
 
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muddythefish

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RichmondCommu said:
I think it could be argued that Friargate station is closer to the city centre than the current station.

In my opinion Ripley isn't big enough to have ever considered reopening the branch, not to mention the fact that past Denby the track bed has pretty much vanished.
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Ripley / Heanor / Codnor area should be able to sustain a rail service. The journey into Derby by the A38 in rush hour isn't easy.
 
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Mugby

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RichmondCommu said:
I think it could be argued that Friargate station is closer to the city centre than the current station.

In my opinion Ripley isn't big enough to have ever considered reopening the branch, not to mention the fact that past Denby the track bed has pretty much vanished.
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Friargate certainly is closer to the city centre, 5 mins walk against 15 mins walk from Midland.

Ripley is a complete non starter for reopening, the inordinate number of level crossings on the branch was always an operational pain, even when it was freight only.
 
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70014IronDuke

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RichmondCommu said:
I think it could be argued that Friargate station is closer to the city centre than the current station.
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Granted, but it is hardly an alternative station is/was it? Unless, that is, you routed all Derby trains from KX via Grantham. So it hardly counts, except, perhaps, for traffic from Nottingham.

[/QUOTE] In my opinion Ripley isn't big enough to have ever considered reopening the branch, not to mention the fact that past Denby the track bed has pretty much vanished. [/QUOTE]

Please read what I wrote - "stay open". I never suggested reopening. nor would I (given the exactly circumstances you note).

Unfortunately, nobody has really come up with a decent reason for keeping the Friargate line, however. I can agree "it would have been nice", but I was hoping for more substantive arguments.

I'm not sure that there are any. for a start, BR were hell bent on closing Nottingham Victoria (I'm sure they were after the lolly from the sale of prime real estate.) I don't know if the Friargate line could have been routed into Nottingham Midland? (I'm afraid, despite living up that way in the 70s, the plethora of lines in and around the Erewash left me bewildered.)

Without that, it would have been a total white elephant, surely?
 
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Max287

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Thanks for all the info everybody. I have managed to get hold of a copy of the Mark Higginson book; cost me £50 but its his birthday on Monday so I thought why not! Having had a little look through the book, it has exactly what I was looking for and I'm sure he will love it.

As for the closing of the line; I'm only in my early 30's so obviously never knew Derby as the Railway hub it once was. Speaking to my Dad, he has always thought it such a shame that the GNR was closed, though that may be due to sentiment rather than practicality?
 
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70014IronDuke said:
I'm not sure that there are any. for a start, BR were hell bent on closing Nottingham Victoria (I'm sure they were after the lolly from the sale of prime real estate.) I don't know if the Friargate line could have been routed into Nottingham Midland? (I'm afraid, despite living up that way in the 70s, the plethora of lines in and around the Erewash left me bewildered)
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I can't see any reason why Derby Friargate could have remained open without Nottingham Victoria.
I only just remember Nottingham Victoria from my childhood holidays by train from Nottingham to Mablethorpe. From what I remember and from looking at photographs it looked a very impressive station and seemed to be well loved by the people of Notttingham. Probably far superior to Nottingham Midland. Certainly without the Great Central a station the size of Nottingham Victoria could not have survived with just the Great Northern seervices to Derby Friargate, Grantham and the Lincolnshire coast.

Lots of questions could be asked as to whether Nottingham Victoria and the Great Central should have been closed. Would Nottingham have continued to have 2 stations? Would it have been possible to have closed Nottingham Midland and kept Victoria? The whole East Midlands rail map and routes would have been very different if that had happened. I wonder if Nottingham would have remained more on a main through route to the north instead of Derby? Would the Woodhead Route still be open and HS2 be as relevant. So many things could have been different and it's fun to imagine what might have been.

I suppose if the line from Nottingham Victoria to Derby Friargate was still there, a station on that line at Ilkeston would have been of far more use than the new one just opened as it would have provided local services to both Nottingham and Derby.
 
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thenorthern

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Max287 said:
Thanks for all the info everybody. I have managed to get hold of a copy of the Mark Higginson book; cost me £50 but its his birthday on Monday so I thought why not! Having had a little look through the book, it has exactly what I was looking for and I'm sure he will love it.

As for the closing of the line; I'm only in my early 30's so obviously never knew Derby as the Railway hub it once was. Speaking to my Dad, he has always thought it such a shame that the GNR was closed, though that may be due to sentiment rather than practicality?
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When it closed in 1964 British Rail was in the process closing duplicate lines, between Derby and Nottingham there was the current line as well as the Friargate line so the Friargate Line was surplus to requirements.

Originally the Friargate Line went from Stafford to Grantham but the line from Egginton Junction to Derby Friargate as well as Stafford to Uttoxeter was closed in 1939. The line itself was operated by the LNER in a largely LMS area.

There would be some benefits if the line had stayed open as many areas of Derby that the line served such as Mickleover have vastly increased in size and would benefit from a proper service.
 
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There's an almost unbounded field for speculation on what might have happened if Nottingham Midland had closed instead of Victoria!

A couple of thoughts occur to me to start with:-

To run services from Nottingham to Birmingham it would have been necessary to route them via Egginton Junction and Burton on Trent.

To get from Nottingham to Lincoln would have meant going via Bottesford West Junction to Newark - unless the Honington to Lincoln line had remained open in which case they could have taken an even longer way round. Or I suppose they could have gone via Ollerton and the former LDECR route - no telling how long that would have taken!
 
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Merthyr Imp said:
To run services from Nottingham to Birmingham it would have been necessary to route them via Egginton Junction and Burton on Trent.

To get from Nottingham to Lincoln would have meant going via Bottesford West Junction to Newark - unless the Honington to Lincoln line had remained open in which case they could have taken an even longer way round. Or I suppose they could have gone via Ollerton and the former LDECR route - no telling how long that would have taken!
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Yes, I think travel towards Birmingham would have benn the biggest problem.

No problem with Lincoln. Just the opposite to what was done in fact with the Grantham line near Nottingham Racecourse where the Lincoln and Grantham lines now diverge. The lines from Nottingham Midland and Victoria ran side by side here and the Grantham line used to go into Victoria and the Lincoln Line into Midland. The link would just need to have been constructed the other way around.
 
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thenorthern said:
There would be some benefits if the line had stayed open as many areas of Derby that the line served such as Mickleover have vastly increased in size and would benefit from a proper service.
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From what I understand the bus service from Mickleover is very good so I'm not sure how realistically a rail service could compete with that. Not to mention that the station site is some distance from the centre of the village. I wonder whether a station at Mickleover would be any busier than the one at Spondon?
 
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thenorthern

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RichmondCommu said:
From what I understand the bus service from Mickleover is very good so I'm not sure how realistically a rail service could compete with that. Not to mention that the station site is some distance from the centre of the village. I wonder whether a station at Mickleover would be any busier than the one at Spondon?
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Difficult to say as Spondon is only served irregularly in a similar way to Peartree so rail services aren't useful to anyone. I reckon if both of them had more trains serving them then more passengers would use them.

Since the line closed Hilton, Etwall, Mickleover, Mackworth, New Zealand, Little Chester and Chaddesden have been built along the line and with a regular service I reckon they would get some passengers. Probably not enough to justify reopening it though.
 
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thenorthern said:
Since the line closed Hilton, Etwall, Mickleover, Mackworth, New Zealand, Little Chester and Chaddesden have been built along the line and with a regular service I reckon they would get some passengers. Probably not enough to justify reopening it though.
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Eh? The Mackworth Estate, New Zealand and Chaddesden were all pretty much as they are now way before the Friargate Line was shut. More houses have been added in Little Chester because St Marys goods yard has been built on but that really is about it.
 
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RichmondCommu

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thenorthern said:
Difficult to say as Spondon is only served irregularly in a similar way to Peartree so rail services aren't useful to anyone. I reckon if both of them had more trains serving them then more passengers would use them.
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Spondon has a reasonable morning and evening service for commuters. Outside of that the bus service to Derby and Nottingham is pretty decent. And even then the service is much better than it is for Peartree.

The vast majority of people living close to Peartree barely have the means to get to the city centre let alone further afield.

If the TOCs thought it was worth providing a better service they would do, in my opinion.
 
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