VTWC Coach K single seats

Scotrail84 · 11 May 2017

Taunton said:
Alan Williams wrote in Modern Railways some years ago that on the 17.30 from Edinburgh to Glasgow, always crowded, Scotrail management staff on first class passes going home let themselves in through the guards door and occupied the best forward-facing window seats of the small amount of first class seats before the doors were opened for him and other passengers. Perhaps some may recall reading this.

Apparently in the days that followed publication there was an absolute prohibition from doing this which came from the top of Scotrail.

First class passes are handed out like confetti to anyone with manager in their title.....:roll: Its virtually only the staff on the ground that don't get them, Station staff, drivers and guards have to sit in std.

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 11 May 2017

Scotrail84 said:
Give it a rest will you, all you've done is bleat on about how you pay full first class fares, I'm willing to bet you get good advance purchases as well. A lot of people on this thread must be really important as all of a sudden they've become experts on job roles of on train staff.

Actively wanting staff disciplined and possibly sacked.... Ive heard it all now.

The rules are that staff should not take seats needed by passengers. It's that simple. Least of all for their bags and coats when not sitting in them.

GW43125 · 11 May 2017

Neil Williams said:
The rules are that staff should not take seats needed by passengers. It's that simple. Least of all for their bags and coats when not sitting in them.

Even with a friend on their Friends & Family tickets it was made very clear that if the train was full and passengers needed seats, we had to shift.

BestWestern · 11 May 2017

Mag_seven said:
On duty staff should keep ALL seats free for fare paying passengers - irrespective of how busy the train is.

I'm slightly baffled by that; do you mean that at no time should any on-duty staff member be sat in a carriage?

Frontera2 · 11 May 2017

Scotrail84 said:
Give it a rest will you, all you've done is bleat on about how you pay full first class fares, I'm willing to bet you get good advance purchases as well. A lot of people on this thread must be really important as all of a sudden they've become experts on job roles of on train staff.

Actively wanting staff disciplined and possibly sacked.... Ive heard it all now.

As a member of staff with 22 years service, I do actually agree with Neil on this. I've witnessed this myself in coach K when another passenger was told in no uncertain terms to move.

The member of staff said to the passenger that "the table isn't laid up" to which the passenger replied that they weren't bothered as weren't going to eat and had work to catch up. Staff member wouldn't budge and demanded he move as the seat he was in was "reserved for staff".

Did I report the incident? Yes I did. I'm all for us members of the railway family looking out for one another, but not at the expense of our fare paying passengers.

Tetchytyke · 11 May 2017

Scotrail84 said:
Give it a rest will you, all you've done is bleat on about how you pay full first class fares, I'm willing to bet you get good advance purchases as well. A lot of people on this thread must be really important as all of a sudden they've become experts on job roles of on train staff.

Actively wanting staff disciplined and possibly sacked.... Ive heard it all now.

I see the same issue on VTEC plenty of times, with the end seats in coach K being reserved by staff dumping bags and coats on the seats. Those six seats (4 around a table, and 2 airline singles) at the end of coach K are the only seats in the whole of 1st class that cannot be reserved.

I've also had it on VTWC where the whole carriage is "closed", including on one Manchester-London weekend train where every other 1st class seat was taken. I've never been spoken to as rudely as by the train manager on that day. Asked why it was closed, answer was "it just is". And yes, if that TM can't be bothered to be polite then he is in the wrong job.

It's not right. It's doubly not right when VTEC have a separate staff area in coach K, which is something VTWC should think about putting in if it's that important for staff to have a seat.

Scotrail84 · 11 May 2017

Frontera2 said:
As a member of staff with 22 years service, I do actually agree with Neil on this. I've witnessed this myself in coach K when another passenger was told in no uncertain terms to move.

The member of staff said to the passenger that "the table isn't laid up" to which the passenger replied that they weren't bothered as weren't going to eat and had work to catch up. Staff member wouldn't budge and demanded he move as the seat he was in was "reserved for staff".

Did I report the incident? Yes I did. I'm all for us members of the railway family looking out for one another, but not at the expense of our fare paying passengers.

If a report was required then leave it to the passenger to do it.

You're all for looking out for each other? You stuck that member of staff away, were you working with them or travelling in 1st as a passenger?

Scotrail84 · 11 May 2017

Arctic Troll said:
I see the same issue on VTEC plenty of times, with the end seats in coach K being reserved by staff dumping bags and coats on the seats. Those six seats (4 around a table, and 2 airline singles) at the end of coach K are the only seats in the whole of 1st class that cannot be reserved.

I've also had it on VTWC where the whole carriage is "closed", including on one Manchester-London weekend train where every other 1st class seat was taken. I've never been spoken to as rudely as by the train manager on that day. Asked why it was closed, answer was "it just is". And yes, if that TM can't be bothered to be polite then he is in the wrong job.

It's not right. It's doubly not right when VTEC have a separate staff area in coach K, which is something VTWC should think about putting in if it's that important for staff to have a seat.

Its no different on the airlines where staff travelling pass get to sit in the front rows and get free tea/coffee, I've seen that happen but I didn't complain and try to get people into trouble.

Tetchytyke · 11 May 2017

Scotrail84 said:
Its no different on the airlines where staff travelling pass get to sit in the front rows and get free tea/coffee

Hmm. Most staff travelling pass on airlines (as opposed to travelling on boxes) are given business as a minimum, so that comparison doesn't work. But where crew try and bump the high-fliers who normally book row 1, it doesn't end well. And with the rise of EU261, you really don't see people getting bumped from the pointy end into economy to cater for a jumpseat staff member anymore.

It's not acceptable, and I've no issue with railway staff getting into trouble for engaging in this behaviour.

Frontera2 · 11 May 2017

Scotrail84 said:
If a report was required then leave it to the passenger to do it.

You're all for looking out for each other? You stuck that member of staff away, were you working with them or travelling in 1st as a passenger?

I was travelling as a passenger. (And yes, I am / was entitled to be in 1st!) but I've seen this happen before so decided enough was enough. It's not my role to challenge staff of a TOC for which I'm not employed.

And, sorry if it offends your sensibilities, but my absolute priority is and always will be for the passenger. Without looking after their interests and ensuring they have the best possible experience, we wouldn't have jobs!

PudseyBearHST · 11 May 2017

Scotrail84 said:
First class passes are handed out like confetti to anyone with manager in their title.....:roll: Its virtually only the staff on the ground that don't get them, Station staff, drivers and guards have to sit in std.

What about Train Manager?

boxy321 · 11 May 2017

Frontera2 said:
As a member of staff with 22 years service, I do actually agree with Neil on this. I've witnessed this myself in coach K when another passenger was told in no uncertain terms to move.

The member of staff said to the passenger that "the table isn't laid up" to which the passenger replied that they weren't bothered as weren't going to eat and had work to catch up. Staff member wouldn't budge and demanded he move as the seat he was in was "reserved for staff".

Did I report the incident? Yes I did. I'm all for us members of the railway family looking out for one another, but not at the expense of our fare paying passengers.

Saw this yesterday on the packed 17:20 from BHX. A chap got on, saw the empty seats (staff were serving drinks further back) and headed for one.

How they knew I have no idea but before his bum touched the seat, one member was there in a flash, informing him that 'There is no service at these seats, sir.' He apologised and disappeared.

I nearly warned him that he was about to invade the staff room. There were no bags or jackets there but the antimaccasars we're missing. I heard a few subdued chuckles from other regular passengers as the inevitable happened.

Bletchleyite · 11 May 2017

BestWestern said:
I'm slightly baffled by that; do you mean that at no time should any on-duty staff member be sat in a carriage?

That may be a little strong, but they should not occupy seats passengers wish to occupy, whether by choice (e.g. because they are preferred seats for whatever reason) or, even more so, when there are no others available.

All Line Rover · 11 May 2017

If VTWC management actually cared about this problem (which they don't), they would adopt the simple solution of making the rearmost seats reservable.

Bletchleyite · 11 May 2017

All Line Rover said:
If VTWC management actually cared about this problem (which they don't), they would adopt the simple solution of making the rearmost seats reservable.

Or, if they think it is OK, marking them as RESERVED-STAFF in the system.

The thing I really, really object to is the embarrassment and inconvenience of being told to move.

Clansman · 11 May 2017

Neil Williams said:
Or, if they think it is OK, marking them as RESERVED-STAFF in the system.

The thing I really, really object to is the embarrassment and inconvenience of being told to move.

Or just do a VTEC and have a designated crew area comprising of a table of 4, similar to VTEC so they'll have no need to nick passenger's seats. I'm all for allowing them to sit in the first class seats when unoccupied like on VTEC, but when first class is busy and these seats are reserved they shouldn't have the right of ousting passengers for the sake of a 10 minute break here and there.

Scotrail84 · 11 May 2017

PudseyBearHST said:
What about Train Manager?

TM's do not get 1st class travel passes I can assure you.

mcmad · 11 May 2017

Scotrail84 said:
First class passes are handed out like confetti to anyone with manager in their title.....:roll: Its virtually only the staff on the ground that don't get them, Station staff, drivers and guards have to sit in std.

Other than Network Rail staff who get nothing of course

ChilternTurbo · 11 May 2017

Clansman said:
Or just do a VTEC and have a designated crew area comprising of a table of 4, similar to VTEC so they'll have no need to nick passenger's seats. I'm all for allowing them to sit in the first class seats when unoccupied like on VTEC, but when first class is busy and these seats are reserved they shouldn't have the right of ousting passengers for the sake of a 10 minute break here and there.

The VTEC crew area is a good idea and appreciate that crews need a rest but why on earth was it put in the quiet carriage of first class? On a recent journey between London and Newcastle loud conversations and phone calls from the crew area could be heard by the rest of the carriage.

Clansman · 11 May 2017

ChilternTurbo said:
The VTEC crew area is a good idea and appreciate that crews need a rest but why on earth was it put in the quiet carriage of first class? On a recent journey between London and Newcastle loud conversations and phone calls from the crew area could be heard by the rest of the carriage.

To be fair the crew area is separated by it's own door from the rest of the coach, although they're over-sensitive, so tend open even if you hang your leg out.

Can't really think of a better place for a crew area, to be honest - just the location of the quiet coach would be best behind the DVT where you can't hear the punters at the buffet or the crew door opening every 2 seconds as you said.

ainsworth74 · 11 May 2017

Clansman said:
Can't really think of a better place for a crew area, to be honest - just the location of the quiet coach would be best behind the DVT where you can't hear the punters at the buffet or the crew door opening every 2 seconds as you said.

And, of course, would mean that the first class quiet coach would be in coach M on both HSTs and 225s rather than it being coach J on HSTs and coach K on 225s. A bit of consistency!

BestWestern · 12 May 2017

Neil Williams said:
That may be a little strong, but they should not occupy seats passengers wish to occupy, whether by choice (e.g. because they are preferred seats for whatever reason) or, even more so, when there are no others available.

I agree with that. However it's worth considering that, in some cases, staff will be travelling prior to working a train, or indeed the time they are travelling may even constitute rest break. I think it's resonable to suggest that being stood up for an excessive time and then going to work a train for several hours is not idea. And it certainly doesn't constitude an appropriate break. The solution of course is for the TOC to provide somewhere to accommodate those staff.

Tetchytyke · 12 May 2017

ChilternTurbo said:
The VTEC crew area is a good idea and appreciate that crews need a rest but why on earth was it put in the quiet carriage of first class?

It was still the restauarant car when the first Mallard sets came out of refurbishment, and it makes perfect sense to have it there at the end of first class next to the kitchen.

The question really is why did they put the quiet coach in coach K?

All Line Rover said:
If VTWC management actually cared about this problem (which they don't), they would adopt the simple solution of making the rearmost seats reservable.

Or even just making it very very clear that those seats are solely for staff use.

They're either staff seats, or they're not. If they're staff seats they should be marked as such. If they're not, then staff who chuck people out of them in such an aggressive way should be disciplined. Telling people off for sitting there is not exactly the premium customer service one expects from 1st class: you wouldn't see cabin crew in Upper Class behaving like that.

Bletchleyite · 12 May 2017

BestWestern said:
I agree with that. However it's worth considering that, in some cases, staff will be travelling prior to working a train, or indeed the time they are travelling may even constitute a rest break. I think it's resonable to suggest that being stood up on a packed service for a long period of time and then going to work a train for several hours is not particularly ideal. And it certainly doesn't constitude an appropriate break. The solution of course is for the TOC to provide somewhere to accommodate those staff.

Indeed. It should however be made clear that when this specific issue occurs it involves staff who are working the train.

Bletchleyite · 12 May 2017

Arctic Troll said:
They're either staff seats, or they're not. If they're staff seats they should be marked as such. If they're not, then staff who chuck people out of them in such an aggressive way should be disciplined. Telling people off for sitting there is not exactly the premium customer service one expects from 1st class: you wouldn't see cabin crew in Upper Class behaving like that.

Agreed.

For what it's worth, my view is that the first two rows of airline seat pairs on the 2 side should be reserved as staff seats and shown as such using the reservation displays or stickers (these are the least popular seats on the train), but the staff strictly banned from sitting in the popular single seats entirely.

Mag_seven · 12 May 2017

BestWestern said:
I'm slightly baffled by that; do you mean that at no time should any on-duty staff member be sat in a carriage?

On duty staff can sit in free seats between stations - they should then be vacated when passengers join so the passengers can have their choice of seat. Staff "reserving them" by placing coats and bags on them is not acceptable.

LowLevel · 12 May 2017

Ironically the single seats you're most fond of Neil are by far the least popular on EMT services and are often empty with people usually going for the bays of 4

As for taking seats - that's fine. Generally this is because for train crew on services that have buffet facilities (with the exception of drivers) have their meal breaks rostered on board the train and are required to use the first class kitchen facilities to make their food up and are allowed to eat it in first as well - they don't tend to have booked personal needs breaks off the train. However they should behave in a professional manner when seated in the train.

There should be some more seats specifically marked though I agree to avoid confusion and confrontation. They should however be for staff use regardless of how busy the train is - the staff are still at work and entitled to a meal break. They should not be expected to move while eating for example because someone wants the seat they're in. They should however take their break and then move on.

craigwilson · 12 May 2017

Lad Brookes said:
10:07 Euston to Lime Street is the last service that goes the usual route today (later services are extensions of the xx:00 Euston to Piccadilly services, so take about an hour longer). Needless to say, it's pretty rammed.

I've just boarded at Stafford, and walked the full length of First Class, looking for two seats together. Get to the back of Coach K, and finally find what we are looking for- seats 1 & 2 are free- apart from an unattended bag with the Virgin logo in seat 2. Lovely.

(Thankfully there was one more set of 2 free, along with 3 out of 4 of Neil Williams's favourite single seats. But still, not impressed- pretty predictable that this train would be busy, it's not some late night graveyard train!)

I'd have moved that bag into the overhead luggage bins like we are told to rather than taking up a seat with our bag

I joke of course, but as said, this kind of behaviour by staff is not on.

CentralTrainer · 26 Jul 2017

Just on the 2310 from Birmingham New Street down to Euston.

Two young ladies get on in Coach C and sit down in the two single seats facing each other (01 and 02).

About 10 minutes into the journey - I observe one of the Catering Staff (as it's by the Shop portion of the train) - march up to the table and demand to know where the two girls are going to.

They say "Coventry" and the bloke flounces off.

We get to Coventry - and the two girls get off. Literally 10 seconds later - two of the Virgin On Board staff descend like vultures and seat themselves at the table to prevent any paying passengers availing of them.

We were then subjected to 5 minutes of loud conversation that certainly wasn't of a professional manner from the two staff.

Then as the two staff get up to resume working - one of them reaches down under the seats - pulls out one of the folding plastic crates they use to store stock in - proudly slams it down on the table (no doubt as a deterrent for any passengers who want to use those seats) and walks off with a big smile on his face.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BestWestern · 27 Jul 2017

I would suggest that if several people were to email Virgin about this very specific issue, they may well do something about it.

VTWC Coach K single seats

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member