Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The IRA primarily wanted disruption, fear and economic damage.
Modern-day terrorism seems to want pain and death.
Quite different, not that we want either
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Manchester Arena Incident (22/05/2017)
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The IRA primarily wanted disruption, fear and economic damage.
Modern-day terrorism seems to want pain and death.
Quite different, not that we want either
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Warrington was a screw-up with a badly given warning, like other UK mainland attacks it was AIUI not intended to kill anyone. (Doesn't make it OK of course).
It did though
Warrington was a screw-up with a badly given warning, like other UK mainland attacks it was AIUI not intended to kill anyone. (Doesn't make it OK of course).
It did though
It was also a bomb left in a bin in a town centre. It could have just as easily killed two pensioners or two forty year olds as two schoolboys.
Well ok and I'm in no way trying to excuse them but the attack in Manchester was at an event which was predominantly attended by children.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I'd agree with that, the IRA generally gave warnings. Omagh and Warrington were both much worse than intended because the warnings were screwed up, both by the IRA and the authorities. The intention was always more about the economic damage rather than death.
Not that that's much comfort to the families of Johnathan and Tim. Amd it certainly doesn't condone what the IRA did. If you plant a bomb, you're responsible, even if you do give coded warnings.
The problem with today's terrorism is that there isn't the warning. The intention is death, not economic damage. So it happens out of leftfield, there's no way of knowing where or when it will happen. And this incident was deliberately targeted at an event largely for teenagers, and the intention was killing as many of them as possible.
theageofthetra
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This is a question for those who know the layout of this venue/station interchange well.
1) Do you see this as an attack on the UK rail network/premises directly?
2) Was the place the device detonated on railway premises or the venues?
3) Is the layout/people flow between the venue and station/transport links similar to say the Greenwich/02 and North Greenwich transport interchange- with the vast majority using this one route to leave?
This attack is clever and a disturbing change in tactic as although security is tight getting into any large concert or sporting event these days leaving one has virtually none as police/security want the venue cleared & guests away ASAP.
1) Do you see this as an attack on the UK rail network/premises directly?
2) Was the place the device detonated on railway premises or the venues?
3) Is the layout/people flow between the venue and station/transport links similar to say the Greenwich/02 and North Greenwich transport interchange- with the vast majority using this one route to leave?
This attack is clever and a disturbing change in tactic as although security is tight getting into any large concert or sporting event these days leaving one has virtually none as police/security want the venue cleared & guests away ASAP.
Yes I was watching BBC Breakfast this morning and it was heartening that they were spending a decent amount of time talking about things that people had done in the aftermath to help. Taxi drivers offering free trips anywhere, people opening their homes, etc, etc. Rather than just focusing on the attacker.
Which is the point I'm making, they really didn't care who the bombs killed and they had no 'code of conduct' in that respect.
anti-pacer
Established Member
I'm very upset at this. I once lived 10 mins walk away from the arena, and walked through part of it from Trinity Way to Victoria station, to get my tram to Stretford where I worked.
All terrorist attacks are awful but this one targeted kids. What goes on in the heads of these people?
Unfortunately I think these terrorist attacks are now going to increase. I don't think we'll ever win the war on terror.
Very sad indeed.
All terrorist attacks are awful but this one targeted kids. What goes on in the heads of these people?
Unfortunately I think these terrorist attacks are now going to increase. I don't think we'll ever win the war on terror.
Very sad indeed.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
The other problem is that the lone wolf cannot be negotiated with and has no command structure. There is no realistic political intent, no proper end goal to the violence.
Today's terrorism is nihilistic and indiscriminate.
The increasing reliance on lone wolves with increasingly desperate tactics does signal to me - somewhat hopefully - an ISIS in retreat, and one hopes the ideology will wane in time.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
This couldn't be more incorrect, but this is a thread about children getting killed by a suicide bomb in Manchester and not about a historical conflict so I won't elaborate further (as I have done many times on the forum before, at great length). The 69-98 Troubles would probably be my Mastermind subject, and I have written a dissertation on command and communication within the PIRA and wider "Republican movement".
What I will say is I am continually disappointed that people in Britain have such a poor factual grasp of the subject, and that it keeps getting brought up to score points long after the full-time whistle has gone.
Trainfan344
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Manchester Arndale centre evacuated.
Would you have preferred them targeting a community centre during school hours meaning only adults would have been present?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
From t'other thread:
No.
The venue.
Yes, and I suspect it was intentionally the case.
Close one door, another is opened by them. You cannot stop lone wolves.
No.
The venue.
Yes, and I suspect it was intentionally the case.
Close one door, another is opened by them. You cannot stop lone wolves.
1 and 2 - The attack was in the arena building but not the auditorium. It was not directly on the rail infrastructure.
Footage shows people running down to the exit from the arena to the area between platforms 4 and 5 of Victoria. Witness reports describe it as being near the box office. We can presume I think that this was in the area on the bottom left hand corner of this floor-plan. In other words, in the arena but at the exit which leads directly to the station platforms. We could speculate that the ease of access between the station and arena was a factor in choosing that site, but the attack was in the arena building.
3 - As the floorplan shows, the arena has multiple exits and people would leave by different routes: it's much closer to the city center than somewhere like the O2. The exit that seems to be targeted is probably the busiest, as it leads to both the station and the car park. In addition, as well as rail users, many people from concerts use the station's facilities to get taxis or as a pick up point
Footage shows people running down to the exit from the arena to the area between platforms 4 and 5 of Victoria. Witness reports describe it as being near the box office. We can presume I think that this was in the area on the bottom left hand corner of this floor-plan. In other words, in the arena but at the exit which leads directly to the station platforms. We could speculate that the ease of access between the station and arena was a factor in choosing that site, but the attack was in the arena building.
3 - As the floorplan shows, the arena has multiple exits and people would leave by different routes: it's much closer to the city center than somewhere like the O2. The exit that seems to be targeted is probably the busiest, as it leads to both the station and the car park. In addition, as well as rail users, many people from concerts use the station's facilities to get taxis or as a pick up point
bussnapperwm
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Confirmed via RT International - Police seal off Manchester's Arndale shopping centre, people told to flee
Manchester’s Arndale shopping center has been cordoned off and evacuated only hours after an attack on Manchester Arena killed 22 people who had been attending an Ariana Grande concert.
https://www.rt.com/uk/389374-manchester-arndale-shopping-evacuation/
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1: No
2: Venue entrance
3: The site of the explosion appears to be on the main entry route where ticket and security checks would have taken place earlier but as you would expect for an 18000 seat stadium there are many exit routes although that via the station would be the most obvious for young people who might be meeting parents afterwards. (Bear in mind that any security perimeter is always going to have access points which by definition are not secure until that perimeter is reached.)
A terrible incident. Thoughts and prayers to those affected.
2: Venue entrance
3: The site of the explosion appears to be on the main entry route where ticket and security checks would have taken place earlier but as you would expect for an 18000 seat stadium there are many exit routes although that via the station would be the most obvious for young people who might be meeting parents afterwards. (Bear in mind that any security perimeter is always going to have access points which by definition are not secure until that perimeter is reached.)
A terrible incident. Thoughts and prayers to those affected.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
No to 1 and 2 I think, don't know about 3.
The Arena is built on the north side of Victoria station, and partly above its northern platforms.
It's actually built on land freed up by the closure of some of the old through platforms.
The city-side pedestrian access to the Arena utilises the station bridge to reach the foyer on the same level.
The foyer of the Arena is beyond the station boundary, so the attack doesn't seem to be directed at the railway in any way.
However, it's possible some of the station structure has been damaged by the explosion.
I don't know enough about the Arena to say if the station access is the main/only entrance.
I think there's also a Arena exit at the far west end of Victoria platforms.
I'm sure the locals on here will know the detail.
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The recent attacks, both here and elsewhere in Europe, don't seem to display the same level of organisation that the earlier attacks in Paris did. That's pretty much the only comfort I can take from this.
But the lone wolves all have similar histories of petty criminality, womanising, domestic abuse, drinking and drugs. This isn't a coincidence: these people are the easiest to turn. There's a reason why cults all target these sorts of people. All we can do is keep fighting the good fight, making sure that we don't target an entire religion because of the actions of a handful of "converts" who have plenty of narcissism but not much faith. The way of fighting these people is through inclusion, rather than racism and xenophobia and exclusion.
No and I don't see how it's possible to draw that inference from my post.
The IRA was a terrorist organisation which used violence in an ultimately futile attempt to achieve its aims of a united Ireland. Any of their acts of violence were abhorrent, whoever they were aimed at.
I presume that checks were made on those ENTERING the venue, but the explosion occurred shortly after the concert ended, at an exit.
No security checks on ENTRY can prevent a suicide bomber waiting outside an exit and targeting those leaving.
As regards your own safety when attending say a sporting event, I would not worry too much. I appreciate that this sounds a bit callous when over 20 lives have just been taken, but remember just how many large events are NOT targeted.
More lives are lost on the roads than are taken by terrorists, yet few people are worried enough to give up road travel.
Enough. This thread isn't about the IRA and their tactics it's about the callous attack on the Manchester Arena. If you want to talk about the IRA then feel free to set up a thread dedicated to that topic. Otherwise stick to the topic at hand.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Even within the Arena capacity is 21,000. That means a 1 in 1000 chance of being killed if there was an attack every time. Of course there won't be, so the chance of being killed is miniscule.
Terrorism is primarily intended to create fear.
In terms of the precise location, its my impression that the 'foyer' being described is the area outside the former McDonalds as shown in the picture in this article: https://lovinmanchester.com/news/ma...oses-after-17-years-leaving-gig-goers-without
As I recall the doors on the right of the picture head onto the station footbridge. There seems to be some confusion coming from the Arena saying that the explosion took place 'in a public area outside the arena' when everyone would really consider that the location is 'the arena' even if it is a publicly accessible area.
As I recall the doors on the right of the picture head onto the station footbridge. There seems to be some confusion coming from the Arena saying that the explosion took place 'in a public area outside the arena' when everyone would really consider that the location is 'the arena' even if it is a publicly accessible area.
KN1
Member
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ISIS have claimed this latest atrocity is their work.
If anybody can spare a fiver, a tenner, or more, then there's a page set up by Manchester Evening News to raise money for the victims and families of the attack.
We stand together Manchester
There seems to be no end to the amount of people helping others; blood donations have skyrocketed and one homeless man actually ran into the arena to help others.
Full article here
We stand together Manchester
There seems to be no end to the amount of people helping others; blood donations have skyrocketed and one homeless man actually ran into the arena to help others.
Independent said:
Full article here
weastebusdepot
Member
Yes it's the area outside arena but within the arena complex where McDonald's used to be and also JD Williams have a call centre. The whole site including the arena and car park is on Network Rail land but it's not part of the operational railway. Anyone can access that area without the need of either a concert ticket or a rail ticket.
There are three main public exits from the arena. The one mentioned that leads down to station, Hunts Bank entrance that leads down steps directly to the road and the Trinity Way exit that leads to the car parks. When a concert finishes, all three are heavily used.
Qwerty133
Established Member
IS have claimed responsibility according to the BBC
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