Toton disused class 60s

marketman · 4 Jun 2017

I recently visited toton via the bank and attempted to get the numbers of all the 24 class 60,s sadly looking worse for wear and not going anywhere fast.
However I got the first 15 but the rest are covered by wagons.

Any help greatly appreciated

RailUK Forums

Blaahh · 4 Jun 2017

60067/32/60/86/50/88/18/27/37/42/97/14/25/31/05/53/78/23/89/04/93/83/06/81

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128828453@N05/34243613443/in/datetaken-ff/

MML · 4 Jun 2017

I know coal traffic has been in terminal decline, but why are so many 'relatively' modern locos in such a poor state of repair. You can perhaps understand older Class 20, 31 or 37, but Class 60s ?

D365 · 4 Jun 2017

MML said:
I know coal traffic has been in terminal decline, but why are so many 'relatively' modern locos in such a poor state of repair. You can perhaps understand older Class 20, 31 or 37, but Class 60s ?

Aren't there a number of Class 66s and 67s that are long-term out of use as well?

Townsend Hook · 5 Jun 2017

D365 said:
Aren't there a number of Class 66s and 67s that are long-term out of use as well?

There are, but very small numbers of each compared to the amount of stored 60s.

TimboM · 5 Jun 2017

MML said:
I know coal traffic has been in terminal decline, but why are so many 'relatively' modern locos in such a poor state of repair. You can perhaps understand older Class 20, 31 or 37, but Class 60s ?

They simply don't meet the requirements of the modern freight market - sadly. They're heavy haul, slower (max 60 mph) locos designed in the late 80s for coal, steel, oil etc.

These days the need is for faster, lighter (intermodal) freight - and conversely the coal and steel industries in particular are a shadow of their former selves.

Added to that they're not the easiest/cheapest to maintain nor the most reliable and unfortunately the ubiquitous 66s have taken over.

Getting a tad political, but I also think the fact EWS acquired them from BR for a fraction of how much they cost to make has some bearing on why buying new Sheds was more economical than utilising the existing assets.

The real question is why some of the sorriest examples (e.g. fire-damaged 60081) are still sitting there and haven't been scrapped yet..?

E_Reeves · 5 Jun 2017

Townsend Hook said:
There are, but very small numbers of each compared to the amount of stored 60s.

I've noticed 66008 hasn't moved in a while. Are there many other 66s out of use?

Peter Mugridge · 5 Jun 2017

I have been thinking about going for these 60s - my own DSLR camera only has a 55mm zoom, which I realise isn't enough to get good images of them from the footpath on the bank... but my wife's bridge camera has a 46X optical zoom.

Will that be sufficient if I borrow it?

Townsend Hook · 5 Jun 2017

E_Reeves said:
I've noticed 66008 hasn't moved in a while. Are there many other 66s out of use?

According to WNXX DBC has 10 66s stored: 008/043/046/058/081/132/141/172/184/250.

HOOVER29 · 5 Jun 2017

If you believe Rail magazine all the 60's can be repaired if needed.
As it's been said before hell will freeze over before that happens!!

BestWestern · 5 Jun 2017

Blaahh said:
60067/32/60/86/50/88/18/27/37/42/97/14/25/31/05/53/78/23/89/04/93/83/06/81

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128828453@N05/34243613443/in/datetaken-ff/

Is that a 60 in DBS red in the row in the background? Stored 'Super 60' already?

KN1 · 5 Jun 2017

They're all waiting for a coal traffic revival.

37038 · 5 Jun 2017

KN1 said:
They're all waiting for a coal traffic revival.

Which won't happen.

Some of the "Super 60s" have been out of traffic for a long while now. The likes of 60010 60015 have been out for a long while

BestWestern · 5 Jun 2017

37038 said:
Some of the "Super 60s" have been out of traffic for a long while now. The likes of 60010 60015 have been out for a long while

The ingrained former EWS culture of peeing money away like water is still adhered to then....

CosherB · 5 Jun 2017

KN1 said:
They're all waiting for a coal traffic revival.

Export to China? :lol:

TimboM · 5 Jun 2017

HOOVER29 said:
If you believe Rail magazine all the 60's can be repaired if needed.
As it's been said before hell will freeze over before that happens!!

Anything can be repaired/restored if there's the desire/money/motive. With the 60s, though, there are so many of them (75 stored currently) that if there was any future demand for some (selling abroad, HS2, whatever...) it'd unlikely to be for the whole lot of them and hence the worst examples surely must be beyond any sort of economical use/repair (bar spares, which they've probably been stripped of most already).

nicjoynson · 5 Jun 2017

Although coal, steel and oil are in decline aggregates are healthy and growing. I believe the 60s have a real advantage over 66s in terms of their ability to haul heavier trains: if so there is a possible reason why they might be useful in the future.

For example, while its not clear why a 4000t train went to Tytherington yesterday, there is no way a 66 would be able to handle a train of that weight.

Nic

KN1 · 5 Jun 2017

CosherB said:
Export to China?

Good idea, never thought of that.

najaB · 5 Jun 2017

37038 said:
KN1 said:

They're all waiting for a coal traffic revival.

Click to expand...

Which won't happen.

Sell them to the US?

DarloRich · 5 Jun 2017

TimboM said:
The real question is why some of the sorriest examples (e.g. fire-damaged 60081) are still sitting there and haven't been scrapped yet..?

Because as scrap they have an asset value and you don't get rid until the price is highest. Nor do you want to flood the market and drive the price down. Call it a rainy day fund

HOOVER29 said:
If you believe Rail magazine all the 60's can be repaired if needed.
As it's been said before hell will freeze over before that happens!!

I am sure they can be repaired if required and the economic drivers exist. A couple might be beyond economic repair mind. Did one not have engine internals make a break for freedom through the side of the engine?

nicjoynson said:
Although coal, steel and oil are in decline aggregates are healthy and growing. I believe the 60s have a real advantage over 66s in terms of their ability to haul heavier trains: if so there is a possible reason why they might be useful in the future.

For example, while its not clear why a 4000t train went to Tytherington yesterday, there is no way a 66 would be able to handle a train of that weight.

Nic

Was that not 59 hauled? Is that tonnage based on the timing load? The main problem for the 60 is the low top speed.

nicjoynson · 5 Jun 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicjoynson
Although coal, steel and oil are in decline aggregates are healthy and growing. I believe the 60s have a real advantage over 66s in terms of their ability to haul heavier trains: if so there is a possible reason why they might be useful in the future.

For example, while its not clear why a 4000t train went to Tytherington yesterday, there is no way a 66 would be able to handle a train of that weight.

Nic
Was that not 59 hauled? Is that tonnage based on the timing load? The main problem for the 60 is the low top speed.

It was - 59/2s. I agree the top speed of the 60s is their operational Achilles heal, but that aside, in terms of traction abilities the 59s and 60s are comparable. Given that the vast majority of aggregate trains out of the Somerset, Leicestershire, Derbyshire and Yorkshire quarries are class 6 when loaded then the 60s should be fine.

E_Reeves · 6 Jun 2017

Townsend Hook said:
According to WNXX DBC has 10 66s stored: 008/043/046/058/081/132/141/172/184/250.

66172 must've gone into storage recently though, as I saw it in January this year.

HOOVER29 · 6 Jun 2017

CosherB said:
Export to China?

Doesn't mean they'll be going over there looking like a class 60 though.
The Eurostars looked quite nice going into Kingsbury.
Different story when they left in a wagon for Liverpool EMR though.

TimboM · 6 Jun 2017

E_Reeves said:
66172 must've gone into storage recently though, as I saw it in January this year.

I believe they rotate the 66s in and out of storage periodically so they don't get into too much a state of disrepair. Shame they didn't do that with the 60s (or 90s/92s) - although a different scenario I suppose when it's 75% of the fleet being stored.

CosherB · 6 Jun 2017

You have to wonder what DBs ultimate plans are for all these locos, plus the 58s stored across the water. There doesn't seem to be much chance that they will let them go to another UK FOC (and why would they, especially after what happened with the Colas 60s) so the likelihood of any of them seeing work in the UK again has to be approaching zero.

alexl92 · 6 Jun 2017

CosherB said:
You have to wonder what DBs ultimate plans are for all these locos, plus the 58s stored across the water. There doesn't seem to be much chance that they will let them go to another UK FOC (and why would they, especially after what happened with the Colas 60s) so the likelihood of any of them seeing work in the UK again has to be approaching zero.

What did happen to them?

CosherB · 6 Jun 2017

alexl92 said:
What did happen to them?

Colas won the Total contract to deliver bitumen from Lindsey to Preston from DB, with Colas using Class 60s! Unsurprisingly, the option for a further ten 60s to Colas never materialised.

Relations must have patched up somewhat, however, as DB sold two 67s to Colas, although clearly for very different workings.

RichmondCommu · 6 Jun 2017

CosherB said:
You have to wonder what DBs ultimate plans are for all these locos, plus the 58s stored across the water. There doesn't seem to be much chance that they will let them go to another UK FOC (and why would they, especially after what happened with the Colas 60s) so the likelihood of any of them seeing work in the UK again has to be approaching zero.

Perhaps they're hoping that they'll be used on the HS2 construction project, assuming that they get the contract.

TimboM · 7 Jun 2017

RichmondCommu said:
Perhaps they're hoping that they'll be used on the HS2 construction project, assuming that they get the contract.

Maybe, but that's not going to use 75 of them I don't think! (and that's just the 60s)

Strathclyder · 7 Jun 2017

DarloRich said:
I am sure they can be repaired if required and the economic drivers exist. A couple might be beyond economic repair mind. Did one not have engine internals make a break for freedom through the side of the engine?

60081 Isambard Kingdom Brunel may be the one you're thinking of. It 'threw a leg out of bed' in April 2005; in other words, a piston/rod broke through the engine casing. Given the seriousness of this failure and the length of time it's been sat out in open storage since, a return to service for 081 looks to be highly unlikely.

Toton disused class 60s

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