Blockade to allow Waterloo upgrade to take place, resulting in timetable changes

PudseyBearHST · 13 May 2017

Hi everyone. Next week at my University (Surrey), there is a lecture called All change: The upgrade of London Waterloo with guest speakers from South-West Trains and Siemens. I suppose we don't have any other students studying at Surrey on this forum and maybe going to this? I am thinking about going to this and thinking of some good questions I could ask at the end particularly with First Group and MTR taking over from August so this causes some uncertainty about the future of the class 707s.

The abstract for the lecture is as follows:

London Waterloo is Britain's busiest railway station and a vital part of one of the most heavily used railways in the country with passenger volumes of 234 million. The upgrade costing £800m creates 30% more space, new signalling, new technology, longer platforms and the introduction of new rolling stock including the launch of the Siemens Desiro 707 to South West Trains. This will be a double-headed presentation. Chris Loader, Waterloo project lead, for South West Trains, will explain the challenging upgrade work at the station. Spencer Hufton, Head of Training at Siemens will then describe the new technology laden Desiro 707 electric trains.

Thanks

EDIT:
http://www.theiet.org/events/local/246667.cfm
This website provides more details and also allows you to register so you come along to the event. The event takes place on Wednesday 7:30 - 9 pm

RailUK Forums

godfreycomplex · 13 May 2017

Interesting. Are grockles allowed?

PudseyBearHST · 13 May 2017

godfreycomplex said:
Interesting. Are grockles allowed?

Never heard of that word before but assuming grockles means outsiders.
Just checked, and I believe outsiders can come to this event as it is arranged by a third party and not Surrey University. However, you will need to register on the website that I will add to my OP... the event is free but they want to know what kind of numbers will be turning up.

2HAP · 14 May 2017

A grockle is a tourist, especially in a seaside town.

godfreycomplex · 14 May 2017

PudseyBearHST said:
Never heard of that word before but assuming grockles means outsiders.
Just checked, and I believe outsiders can come to this event as it is arranged by a third party and not Surrey University. However, you will need to register on the website that I will add to my OP... the event is free but they want to know what kind of numbers will be turning up.

It does indeed, thank you

racyrich · 14 May 2017

The Sunday Times today reported that Network Rail are seriously worried that this August's works might have to involve closing 4 running lines, which they think would entail cancelling 75% of services. Actual plan is to close to 2 lines and 50% of services.
If closing 4 is necessary the whole operation might be postponed a year.

Sadly The Times is behind a paywall. Link anyway

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...uld-mean-75-of-trains-are-cancelled-zgjcnzrtr

theironroad · 14 May 2017

racyrich said:
The Sunday Times today reported that Network Rail are seriously worried that this August's works might have to involve closing 4 running lines, which they think would entail cancelling 75% of services. Actual plan is to close to 2 lines and 50% of services.
If closing 4 is necessary the whole operation might be postponed a year.

Sadly The Times is behind a paywall. Link anyway

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...uld-mean-75-of-trains-are-cancelled-zgjcnzrtr

Well considering the parliamentary reports and other investigations that have heavily criticised nr for their planning and costing of electrification on the western main line, I'm hardly surprised there will be issues. Let's throw in a change of franchise midst works and the whole thing is poorly planned.

*Edit - i can't see the whole Times article so not sure how accurate it is. Friday 25/8 is the only non holiday weekday with a massive reduction in trains into waterloo. The others days are still very heavily impacted but not to such an extent as 25/8.

Having said that, you can't really criticise south West trains for their very proactive advertising of the Waterloo works and reduced service. You can't turn around at stations at the moment for seeing new posters, decals and other info about the closure.

paok · 15 May 2017

An £800m plan to transform Britain’s busiest train station is at risk of being derailed, threatening new delays and overcrowding for commuters.

Engineers for Network Rail have warned train company bosses and government officials that a plan to upgrade Waterloo station in August is in trouble and disruption could be worse than forecast.

Well-placed sources believe the impact on passengers will be so severe the entire project could be delayed for a year or scaled back.

“It’s unbelievable,” a source said. “Everyone is in a complete tailspin. Everybody is very downbeat and resigned to the fact this [project] is not likely to happen.”

Waterloo is showing the strain of passenger growth, with almost 100m people passing through it last year. About 80 trains an hour enter and leave at peak times.

Four platforms are to be extended to allow longer trains, and new track laid on the approach to the station, from August 5 to 28. This means cancelling about half the normal train service.

South West Trains, which runs services to the London suburbs and to cities such as Portsmouth and Exeter, has already advised passengers to consider working from home or taking a holiday.

Network Rail was planning to shut two of the eight train lines that approach Waterloo, but four may now need to close because of the effects on signalling and points. A source close to the project said up to 75% of services would have to be cancelled.

This would result in passengers at stations such as Clapham Junction or Wimbledon queuing “for hours” and huge crowds at Waterloo in the evening.

The source said that unless a way was found to close just two tracks, “you can only run 25% of the train service. That’s not safe because there are so many people wanting to travel into London.

“The crowding risk is massive at Waterloo. You can expect crowds to be pouring out all over the place.”

Network Rail said: “We are proceeding with our plans for the August partial closure of Waterloo. We have no plans to further reduce services.”

Article by Mark Hookham, Sunday Times, 14 May 2017.

DynamicSpirit · 15 May 2017

PudseyBearHST said:
The abstract for the lecture is as follows:
London Waterloo is Britain's busiest railway station and a vital part of one of the most heavily used railways in the country with passenger volumes of 234 million. The upgrade costing £800m creates 30% more space, new signalling, new technology, longer platforms and the introduction of new rolling stock including the launch of the Siemens Desiro 707 to South West Trains. This will be a double-headed presentation. Chris Loader, Waterloo project lead, for South West Trains, will explain the challenging upgrade work at the station. Spencer Hufton, Head of Training at Siemens will then describe the new technology laden Desiro 707 electric trains.

30% more space? That sounds like the previous upgrade, when they put in the upper level concourse. Are they counting that as part of the £800m upgrade or is something new happening (besides the longer platforms and ex-International platforms) that'll create even more space?

Feathers44 · 16 May 2017

DynamicSpirit said:
30% more space? That sounds like the previous upgrade, when they put in the upper level concourse. Are they counting that as part of the £800m upgrade or is something new happening (besides the longer platforms and ex-International platforms) that'll create even more space?

As stated above, it's the new concourse area that will go in at the buffer end of the international platforms once works restart after the August hiatus for the extensions at the other end of the station.

Class 170101 · 20 May 2017

It looks like some of the trains have appeared in Rail Planning systems like Realtime Trains. However I think its incomplete as it shows no trains using platforms 1 - 9 (as expected) but it also shows no trains using Platforms 21 to 24 during this period.

If more capacity has to be taken out at Waterloo is there any more capacity for Exeter services to be diverted at asingstoke to Reading (for Paddington) and is there any scope for services to use, what Quail refers to as, the Ludgate lines and the Battersea Reversible to reach Victoria?

Wombat · 24 May 2017

This is interesting; I've been wondering why the full timetable hasn't been provided yet. Presumably, if they're second-guessing the plan's viability, there's no point in offering a timetable.

It's a bit frustrating. My ability to take on a new contract will depend significantly on the services into Waterloo, so it would be handy to know one way or another. Oh well, I suppose I will have to continue to plan for the worst.

pete_m911 · 7 Jun 2017

Timetable is mainly out and very interesting - diverting some mainline trains via Wimbledon Park/Wandsworth Town. I'm sure TFL are very worried about that!

Wilts Wanderer · 7 Jun 2017

There is a report in Modern Railways that the commissioning of platforms 21-24 might be delayed and this would surely put the possessions in jeopardy. Is this possibly the source of the 'close 4 lines' scenario - they'd have no platforms to run into?

sjm93 · 8 Jun 2017

Playing around with train times on Saturday the 12th at least, it looks as though inbound SW mainline trains are diverted via (and stopping at) Staines, but leaving Waterloo they go via Wimbledon as normal. Just the northbound tracks between Woking and CLJ out of action?

GW43125 · 8 Jun 2017

Class 170101 said:
but it also shows no trains using Platforms 21 to 24 during this period.

You'll notice that a lot of trains have no platform number. I would assume that the systems concerned can't handle Waterloo P21-24 at present

Class 170101 · 13 Jun 2017

I must admit I've only just noticed. However I'm surprised the systems can't handle them.

The same issue applies for the South Eastern Services at the end of August.

Class 170101 · 13 Jun 2017

pete_m911 said:
Timetable is mainly out and very interesting - diverting some mainline trains via Wimbledon Park/Wandsworth Town. I'm sure TFL are very worried about that!

Services via East Putney

I didn't think it was that many to be honest.

infobleep · 14 Jun 2017

Looking at the timetable, it seems there are faster trains from Surbiton to Guildford and this is during the evening peak! Surbtion even has services to Alton in the evening peak! Wow. Please can they shut Waterloo more often....

DasLunatic · 14 Jun 2017

Class 170101 said:
If more capacity has to be taken out at Waterloo is there any more capacity for Exeter services to be diverted at asingstoke to Reading (for Paddington) and is there any scope for services to use, what Quail refers to as, the Ludgate lines and the Battersea Reversible to reach Victoria?

...and in that ilk, could SWT use the Sutton Loop to get there via Streatham/Tulse Hill (delete as appropriate)?

swt_passenger · 14 Jun 2017

SWT DMU services mainly from Salisbury (and some points west) into Reading are showing in RTT as of now. As an example, here's a Honiton to Reading, arriving in platform 15B:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W34469/2017/08/14/advanced

Most services are Salisbury services and using P1, 2, or 3, so that Honiton one might perhaps be a longer train? I'm sure I read somewhere that there was some doubt about Reading actually happening?

regarding earlier posts I very much doubt there is capacity onto any other route near London without seriously depleting or disrupting the existing SN or LO services.

Odd how this thread has changed into a commentary on service patterns, as it started out as a heads up about a lecture; I don't think there was ever any feedback on the lecture?

alastair · 14 Jun 2017

There are some very odd services showing, like the 1855 Waterloo to Farnham which not only runs via East Putney but then runs non-stop from Woking to Farnham.

That will cause endless confusion I would have thought, seeing so many on that line get off at Ash Vale and Aldershot.

swt_passenger · 14 Jun 2017

alastair said:
There are some very odd services showing, like the 1855 Waterloo to Farnham which not only runs via East Putney but then runs non-stop from Woking to Farnham.

That will cause endless confusion I would have thought, seeing so many on that line get off at Ash Vale and Aldershot.

No doubt there'll be a huge number who won't have noticed about 9 months worth of advance notice, be it posters, announcements, timetable leaflets, stickers on trains etc etc.

What more can they (SWT/NR) do?

infobleep · 14 Jun 2017

alastair said:
There are some very odd services showing, like the 1855 Waterloo to Farnham which not only runs via East Putney but then runs non-stop from Woking to Farnham.

That will cause endless confusion I would have thought, seeing so many on that line get off at Ash Vale and Aldershot.

What is the reason it needs to run non stop to Farnham? Is this so it can form a return working? I'm surprise it isn't terminated at Woking or just run ECS to Farnham following Woking.

The usual 18.51 ECS to Farnham from Woking is one that has come from Waterloo.

alastair · 14 Jun 2017

swt_passenger said:
No doubt there'll be a huge number who won't have noticed about 9 months worth of advance notice, be it posters, announcements, timetable leaflets, stickers on trains etc etc.

What more can they (SWT/NR) do?

That was'nt really my point. I was just interested in the possible reason for running (uniquely)non-stop from Woking to Farnham, particularly as there is virtually no saving of time! So presumably the train will crawl along to avoid running early?

infobleep · 19 Jun 2017

I posted this in the wrong thread so adding it here.

Interestingly. Between 7am and 8am and 8am and 9am, there are 8 trains between Surbiton and Clapham Junction each hour. That matches the usual off peak frequency. In addition to that one can save 1 minute once an hour by changing at Wimbledon. I love National Rail Enquiries, where a minute quicker journey, by changing trains is shown. I guess every minute counts to some people! Wimbledon also have 8 an hour from Surbiton.

That frequency is better than what exists when there isn't such large scale engineering works! I wonder what passengers will think of the increase and then the decrease once the works are completed?

I understand why only 4 trains hour run during the usual morning peak but I'm sure passengers who notice the increase won't all appreciate why it must decrease again once the work are completed.

Obviously some other lines have no services but it seems some places at least, they will get an enhanced peak time service to some stations compared to normal.

It is interesting because during the morning high peak, fast trains appear to still all be skipping Clapham Junction, so a fair number of trains must still be going through the fast lines to Waterloo.

Actually Woking is getting two trains an hour stopping Clapham Junction. These are semi fast so perhaps they are using the fast line or they are using the slow line but skipping stations.

Now Woking is going to get 4 trains a hour that stop at Wimbledon and Clapham Junction. Two semi fast and two slow. Currently it gets nothing. Again if passengers notice this, they may not understand why after the works Woking will get nothing to those stations once more.

I know people who catch a train just after 7am in the morning, in order to get the last train to Clapham Junction. They have a slightly longer lie in, if they so wish.

So I think the timetable looks good but I've only looked at some of the lines I've use from time to time in the past, so it's a selfish look at it so to speak.

swt_passenger · 19 Jun 2017

infobleep said:
Again if passengers notice this, they may not understand why after the works Woking will get nothing to those stations once more.

They won't understand that the temporary service pattern can only work because so many long distance trains have been removed completely, and certain branches, such as Chessington, have no service at all? I think people are a bit cleverer than that.

nlogax · 20 Jun 2017

swt_passenger said:
They won't understand that the temporary service pattern can only work because so many long distance trains have been removed completely, and certain branches, such as Chessington, have no service at all? I think people are a bit cleverer than that.

I'd be inclined to agree with you about people's common sense when it comes to these things, but I've re-read a couple of the SWT Passenger Forum transcripts and now I'm really not so certain.

swt_passenger · 20 Jun 2017

As a diversion from timetables, I noticed today that Google Earth (but not Google maps) has an updated view of the Waterloo station area, and it appears to show the new track towards P20-24 all in place, apart from a relatively short length of the approach to P24. (However, comparing with the diagram on "Opentraintimes", that may be a siding, so not a missing length at all?)

Earlier photos showed that the diamond crossovers between the P20-21 roads were in place a while ago (they're under the roof and in place in January), so I think that gives a reasonable clue that the track work is on the downhill stretch.

Does anyone know if the P22-23 crossover has been fitted, I'd assume it must have been?

hwl · 20 Jun 2017

Platform 10 apparently also out of use during the August blockade.

Blockade to allow Waterloo upgrade to take place, resulting in timetable changes

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