I'm not saying that they aren't cowboys, but rather prefer to wait until the investigators have done their work and produced a report officially branding them as such.
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Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London
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Indeed. It wouldn't be the first time that something 'met the specs' but was dangerous none the less. It's all a matter of how the testing was done to define the standard.
I wouldn't be surprised if the material itself wasn't the problem but that it was installed in a way that the standard didn't account for. According to one story I read, as install there were spacers that left an air gap between the back of the cladding and the existing wall. This would be done, I presume, to stop damp penetration, but may have had the side effect of allowing the fire to smoulder in the gap until it got hot enough to flash over a large area.
This installation method wouldn't be a problem with mineral insulation, but would be dangerous with foam-based cladding material.
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
These types of cladding panels are outlawed in many countries, including the UAE, which isn't known for its building control. They're a known danger.
The government were told about this as long ago as 2009, with the Lakanal House fire. But they've ignored it for at least the last four years. Updating the building regs costs money and affects builders, many of whom fund the Tories. So it got kicked into the long grass.
I personally think this government has blood on its hands.
At least Gordon Brown managed to do PMQs without resorting to 'I'm not answering the question but I will say we're better than you' each time. May can't and doesn't have the people skills either so surely now qualifies for being one of the worst PMs of all time.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Quite. My house gets maintained by me (other than gas which I get someone in for as it's too dangerous to prat about with) and I am big on ensuring it is done properly. And even if my neighbour fails to do so, 1970s brick terraced houses are pretty solid so his failure[1] won't likely affect mine too badly.
[1] he's not actually failing to do it, just hypothetical.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm of the opinion that leasehold should be banned completely for residential property (commercial leases are a different ball game because by their nature shorter-term but still secure usage tends to be required). Either the whole block should be commonhold (with owners able to let out if they so wish) or the whole block should be rented out directly under ASTs if the original owner wishes to retain any form of ownership or control.
But even if that is not possible, leasehold houses are simply a scam, there is absolutely no other reason whatsoever for them not to be freehold, they don't have the "you don't own the bits you don't live in" problem flats do, party walls aside which are covered by other perfectly adequate specific legislation. That absolutely should be banned.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
Agreed - but more fool anyone who buys one. They will be very difficult to mortgage or sell and really should not be allowed.
EDIT - are these homes in some kind of shared ownership/help to buy scheme?
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Love or loathe May this was a prime opportunity for her to show her humanist side. She could have got there before Corbyn and shown the victims that she really does care and could have gotten a few positive headlines. And I'm sure the victims would have had a go at her but at the same time I'm sure they would have appreciated her making the effort. Now she has the news headlines of her purposefully avoiding the victims and families, and members of her own party demanding she show some compassion.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Agreed. I think the problem is that some people fall in love with houses and make an emotional decision to buy even if it makes no actual sense to do so.
Not all of them, no. Shared ownership is an interesting one. I don't see how it could not be delivered using the same concepts as a mortgage on a freehold house with some added stuff like deeds of covenant instead of any need for leasehold.
Though TBH I'd abolish subsidised[1] shared ownership, all it does is make high house prices more affordable and in doing so perpetuates them. The money would be better spent on providing social rented housing of a proper quality. (Watching House Inspectors and similar it shocks me just how poor much of it actually is).
As for the right to buy it is criminal, should never have existed, and should be abolished straight away. Would be happy for a Council house to be sold at the full market price if someone *really* wanted one (that money can then be used to purchase a replacement house), but again not for it to be subsidised; it takes rented houses away from those who need them.
But anyway this is all getting a bit OT.
[1] If builders want to offer it at a commercial rent for the non-owned part that's up to them.
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
The Queen has had to do May's job for her, attending one of the relief centres, and speaking to the survivors.
I don't know why May keeps getting away with this kind of avoidance.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I think that you are being most unfair to HM The Queen, saying she was just a "stand-in" for the Prime Minister. Have you forgotten the salutary lesson she learnt over the Princess Diana royal fiasco. You make it sound like HM The Queen would not have visited otherwise.
Did you read the later posting made about the visit that the Prime Minister has made to the Chelsea and Westminster Hospital to meet both victims of this disaster and the hospital staff there.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
The point is, whether the Queen was going to go anyway, or not, she was (intentionally or not) stepping into a leadership vacuum by meeting ordinary people and the victims of the disaster.
Maybe if this Prime Minister would step up a bit, people wouldn't need to have those kind of thoughts.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I am sure that those who commit such politically minded thoughts of a political points-scoring nature know damn well what they are doing and are just using HM The Queen as naught but a pawn in their political machinations.
Read posting # 140 on this thread.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Human nature, being what it is, who can be surprised. How many other "items to purchase" also fall under this scenario?
Of course. To clarify, I wasn't criticising Mrs May, just a statement of fact. I'll save the criticisms for later.
Indeed, another case of doing something after the outcry, i've no doubt whatsoever whe was told to do so.
Exactly the same as last week when she failed to make any mention of those who lost their seats and only said anything after, when she was told to do so.
Point scoring? No. Cynical? Maybe. But it's hard to be anything but when overseeing this current mess.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
It really is only a statement of opinion that May has not been visible enough in providing leadership. It's a statement of opinion that Corbyn was much more accessible than May and is a statement of opinion that the Queen has been providing visible leadership that the prime minister hasn't been doing so far.
Not all of us are scoring political points, though I would welcome your actual opinion on a thread for once. This would be preferable and much more valuable than making no contribution of any substance, by posing rhetorical questions, by crying foul or by changing the subject.
After all, the forums are for an exchange of opinions. So please, go ahead.
So we won't question the Government on their being responsible for writing Building Regs?
There is a question of whether the 1 in 3 out aspirations for reducing regulation has had the effect of driving Government not to update and improve building regs...
All this makes me realise that the Managing Agents that managed the (low rise) flat I used to live in were doing a pretty good job, plus the impact of a Management Company run by the leaseholders rather than the freeholder as a very effective check and balance on the whole process.
Tim R-T-C
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Worrying trend of people assuming everything is a conspiracy continues.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/no-there-isnt-a-d-notice-banning-the-media-from-reporting
It is being alleged that "the government" are conspiring with the "mainstream media" to keep the reported death figures low, when there are suspected to be over 100 missing people who could have died. Apparently that renowned political authority Lily Allen (a pop singer) repeated these claims on Channel 4 news today.
The obvious thing to point out is that it is a slow and methodical process to search every flat for human remains and far more complex to identify them and that the emergency services are doing what they can, but don't want to start speculating on figures based on supposition.
After the ridiculous speculation after the Ladbroke Grove train crash, where there were rumours in the media of potentially dozens of extra casualties yet to be found, I think the media are being rightly cautious and respectful by not delving into rumours of myriad extra fatalities.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/no-there-isnt-a-d-notice-banning-the-media-from-reporting
It is being alleged that "the government" are conspiring with the "mainstream media" to keep the reported death figures low, when there are suspected to be over 100 missing people who could have died. Apparently that renowned political authority Lily Allen (a pop singer) repeated these claims on Channel 4 news today.
The obvious thing to point out is that it is a slow and methodical process to search every flat for human remains and far more complex to identify them and that the emergency services are doing what they can, but don't want to start speculating on figures based on supposition.
After the ridiculous speculation after the Ladbroke Grove train crash, where there were rumours in the media of potentially dozens of extra casualties yet to be found, I think the media are being rightly cautious and respectful by not delving into rumours of myriad extra fatalities.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
it would help if these nimrods actually knew anything about the D notice process...............
Bromley boy
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Awful as this tragedy is for those involved, I can't but be a bit fed up with the likes of Lilly Allen being wheeled out on C4 news yesterday to start political point scoring, blaming the Tories for the disaster and accusing the media of downplaying casualty numbers.
It's far to soon to cast aspersions and the media are truthfully reporting that the casualty count is expected to increase. Obviously they can't give exact figures until the building has been searched.
Quite what qualifies Lilly Allen to comment on these matters - other than being a rich celebrity, with a huge chip on her shoulder, who happens to live close to the affected building (albeit in a far posher bit of Hampstead) - I don't know.
It's far to soon to cast aspersions and the media are truthfully reporting that the casualty count is expected to increase. Obviously they can't give exact figures until the building has been searched.
Quite what qualifies Lilly Allen to comment on these matters - other than being a rich celebrity, with a huge chip on her shoulder, who happens to live close to the affected building (albeit in a far posher bit of Hampstead) - I don't know.
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Tim R-T-C
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I do wish this mainstream media bashing would end.
Yes they are far from perfect, but our media is independent and many major breakthroughs against the government have been assisted by good journalistic investigation.
The idea that papers would accept a notice to cover-up fire deaths is absurd. A D-Notice is used when they need to protect sensitive information, such as anti-terror operations, using it to suppress casualty figures would be very wrong and I greatly expect an editor would take the decision to go-ahead and publish the figures (if they were known) citing public interest.
There is also no logic behind the government trying to coverup the figures. People are rightly outraged now about the incident and adding an extra 40 to the deaths now won't make much different to the anguish. Revealing in six months during the inquest that there were actually 70 dead would be a shocking revelation that will reopen the wounds and restart the vitriol. It is the sort of thing that could bring down a government.
Yes they are far from perfect, but our media is independent and many major breakthroughs against the government have been assisted by good journalistic investigation.
The idea that papers would accept a notice to cover-up fire deaths is absurd. A D-Notice is used when they need to protect sensitive information, such as anti-terror operations, using it to suppress casualty figures would be very wrong and I greatly expect an editor would take the decision to go-ahead and publish the figures (if they were known) citing public interest.
There is also no logic behind the government trying to coverup the figures. People are rightly outraged now about the incident and adding an extra 40 to the deaths now won't make much different to the anguish. Revealing in six months during the inquest that there were actually 70 dead would be a shocking revelation that will reopen the wounds and restart the vitriol. It is the sort of thing that could bring down a government.
Rather interesting and very significant point someone has raised and been shown on the Beeb. Government recently announced hundreds of millions being made available for Buck House to refurbed yet people who live in tower blocks get substandard cheap insulation put on their accommodation. I accept this isn't all the Governments fault but when people have died so tragectly like this is does ask questions about where Government ministers priorities are.
I've seen some pretty impressive refurbishment work. The issue now is safety but where my wife works, they've stated that the cladding is of a different type and stated a series of additional facts to put minds at rest.
Meanwhile social media is calling for a near social uprising that's clearly motivated by the recent election results more than this tragedy. I wonder if we're going to see rioting and police on the streets?
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
Meanwhile social media is calling for a near social uprising that's clearly motivated by the recent election results more than this tragedy. I wonder if we're going to see rioting and police on the streets?
Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
BestWestern
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According to multiple press sources, Ms May met with victims after being berated for failing to meet the public or show any compassion when she earlier visited the site. Undeniably a very poor show, and very poor bit of politics.
I agree with the comments regarding Lily Allen, Russell Brand must be on holiday this week...
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backontrack
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