Merseyrail TVMs no longer accepting bank cards

Old Yard Dog · 16 Jun 2017

Notices have appeared on the TVMs at Little Sutton, Capenhurst and Bache stations saying that bank cards (credit or debit) will not be accepted "until further notice". Presumably the same applies at Overpool and Ellesmere Port.

Does anybody know the reason for this? Is the withdrawal of this facility permanent?

The withdrawal could cause problems as these are unstaffed "penalty fare" stations. The TVMs still accept bank notes but, in my experience, bank note readers cannot be relied upon. Notes need to be in good condition and it doesn't take very much to clog the machines up.

Would Merseyrail impose penalty fares on longer distance passengers unable to pay by cash for the reasons above?

RailUK Forums

Clip · 16 Jun 2017

Have you asked Merseyrail?

najaB · 16 Jun 2017

Old Yard Dog said:
Would Merseyrail impose penalty fares on longer distance passengers unable to pay by cash for the reasons above?

They can try, but they wouldn't stand up to appeal.

causton · 16 Jun 2017

May be short term and temporary while they replace some kit. I heard rumours that some Chip and PIN readers were damaging cards on S+B machines, so perhaps they have disabled them while modifications are carried out.

vjm1975 · 16 Jun 2017

Card readers seem to have been out of action for about 2 months now.
I note that contactless payment has been added to the TVM's, don't know if it's linked to that or not as I have only recently noticed them. All card terminals just show offline.

Merseyrail responded to a comment on Twitter just after the card readers went offline saying they were waiting for an update from suppliers and will be available again soon. But been best part of 2 months now and still not fixed.

causton · 16 Jun 2017

I believe it is the card readers that were installed when machines were upgraded to accept contactless that have been reportedly damaging cards... that is all I could think of for now...!

Could be anything such as a software problem, they have found people can 'skim' cards easily on them etc, things move slow in the railway unfortunately :lol:

Merseysider · 16 Jun 2017

Passengers from these stations are few and far between outside the peaks which perhaps partly explains why Merseyrail haven't sorted it out with any urgency.

If it were somewhere like West Kirby or New Brighton they'd have fixed it by now.

/cynical

Bletchleyite · 16 Jun 2017

A lot of Merseyrail TVMs are cash only. Indeed possibly all of them except those stations.

The Dutch are quite anti-card (except PINpas) and as such they tend to ignore the issue.

FWIW in the Netherlands there is indeed absolute compulsory ticketing like Metrolink. However, this isn't the Netherlands so no, I would not expect a PF if I wanted to pay by card.

nedchester · 16 Jun 2017

JakeF said:
Passengers from these stations are few and far between outside the peaks which perhaps partly explains why Merseyrail haven't sorted it out with any urgency.

If it were somewhere like West Kirby or New Brighton they'd have fixed it by now.

/cynical

Few and far between in between the peaks. They all seem quite well used to me.

You cannot be penalty fared if your chosen method of payment is not available.

vjm1975 · 16 Jun 2017

A few weeks ago there were RPIs at Ellesmere Port directing people to the nearest cashpoint machine advising that you will be 'fined' if you board train without a ticket if you don't do as directed. Nearest machine being at the Shell Garage and roughly 10 min round trip so would end up missing the train you wanted to get. Also noted a couple of comments on twitter to Merseyrail saying they have been threatened with penalty fares even though they couldn't pay because the card readers don't work .

gray1404 · 16 Jun 2017

vjm1975 said:
A few weeks ago there were RPIs at Ellesmere Port directing people to the nearest cashpoint machine advising that you will be 'fined' if you board train without a ticket if you don't do as directed. Nearest machine being at the Shell Garage and roughly 10 min round trip so would end up missing the train you wanted to get. Also noted a couple of comments on twitter to Merseyrail saying they have been threatened with penalty fares even though they couldn't pay because the card readers don't work .

Yet another example of incompetence on the part of Merseyrail RPIs.

Tim R-T-C · 16 Jun 2017

Not good if you want to pay on a credit card either, since there are cash withdrawal charges on most cards.

TUC · 16 Jun 2017

Just say no and point out that there's no requirement to pay by cash. It's the RPI's job to justify their case.

yorkie · 16 Jun 2017

Old Yard Dog said:
Would Merseyrail impose penalty fares on longer distance passengers unable to pay by cash for the reasons above?

Passengers are entitled to pay using any valid payment method.

If there is no facility to accept the passengers chosen payment method at the origin, they may board the train without penalty.

yorkie · 16 Jun 2017

vjm1975 said:
A few weeks ago there were RPIs at Ellesmere Port directing people to the nearest cashpoint machine advising that you will be 'fined' if you board train without a ticket if you don't do as directed. Nearest machine being at the Shell Garage and roughly 10 min round trip so would end up missing the train you wanted to get. Also noted a couple of comments on twitter to Merseyrail saying they have been threatened with penalty fares even though they couldn't pay because the card readers don't work .

This needs to be reported. If this keeps happening, Merseyrail's entire Penalty Fare scheme should be suspended (I believe that may have happened before)

Adlington · 16 Jun 2017

yorkie said:
Passengers are entitled to pay using any valid payment method.

With the proviso "Self-service ticket machines at National Rail stations will accept a more limited range of payment."

TUC · 16 Jun 2017

Adlington said:
With the proviso "Self-service ticket machines at National Rail stations will accept a more limited range of payment."

And passengers are meant to guess what that 'more limited range' will be?

yorkie · 16 Jun 2017

Adlington said:
With the proviso "Self-service ticket machines at National Rail stations will accept a more limited range of payment."

That's not a proviso; a passenger paying by a method such as a rail travel voucher has no opportunity to buy from the machine, so if the ticket office is closed, the full range must be offered on the train (or at destination etc)

Adlington · 16 Jun 2017

yorkie said:
That's not a proviso

Don't really want to argue about the meaning of "proviso". The point I was trying (and probably failed) to make is that TVM may refuse card payments.
Whether this should result in penalty fares is a different story.

radamfi · 16 Jun 2017

Bletchleyite said:
A lot of Merseyrail TVMs are cash only. Indeed possibly all of them except those stations.

The Dutch are quite anti-card (except PINpas) and as such they tend to ignore the issue.

FWIW in the Netherlands there is indeed absolute compulsory ticketing like Metrolink. However, this isn't the Netherlands so no, I would not expect a PF if I wanted to pay by card.

NS now have a lot of machines which are card only and do not accept banknotes. Therefore card is the only sensible way of paying for tickets more than a few euro. GVB in Amsterdam used to have machines that accept banknotes but even their machines now only accept coins and cards, more evidence of the near extinction of cash payment. Cards were accepted at Dutch ticket machines years before the first card accepting machines existed in Britain and it was possible to pay by card at a machine to go to any station in the country. At the same time, Britain had Quickfare machines which only sold tickets to a few destinations, and only accepted coins and banknotes.

Old Yard Dog · 16 Jun 2017

And most NS (Dutch) TVMs only accept Dutch bank cards. Very few accept Visa or MasterCard (unless things have changed in the last 2 years)

radamfi · 17 Jun 2017

Old Yard Dog said:
And most NS (Dutch) TVMs only accept Dutch bank cards. Very few accept Visa or MasterCard (unless things have changed in the last 2 years)

Things have changed and all NS ticket machines accept Visa/Mastercard for a 0.50 surcharge. GVB/RET accept Visa/Mastercard without surcharge.

Dutch ticket machines have accepted Maestro for many years which meant most Europeans were able to use them, although not including most British and Irish visitors.

Polarbear · 17 Jun 2017

For me, this is another instance of Merseyrail making up the rules as they go along.

There may well be a genuine reason that the facility to make payment by card has been withdrawn, but unless that is put into the public domain, I can't see how anyone could be successfully prosecuted for failure to have a valid ticket because they could not use a bank card for payment.

I use Bache quite often & I buy tickets for journeys away from the Merseyrail network that cost more than a few pounds, and I'm certainly not going to inconvenience myself by carting cash around just to keep a rail company happy. On an aside, Bache is quite busy throughout the day though I agree the other three unstaffed stations are fairly quiet outside the peaks.

I've previously complained to Merseyrail about their TVM's and their inability to sell weekly "Railpass" tickets, and during an exchange of letters, they continually changed their excuses & basically lied to me, having not bothered to research the grounds of my complaint. My response has been to withdraw my custom from them as customer service comes way down the list of their priorities. If I had the time & inclination, I would be sorely tempted to challenge their Penalty Fares rules through the courts, as in my opinion, they should not be operating any such scheme that includes the unstaffed stations, as they do not (by their own admission) sell the full range of tickets at those stations.

Laryk · 17 Jun 2017

I emailed them about this a few weeks ago, and received this reply on 2nd June:

"Thank you for contacting Merseyrail.
We are sorry for the inconvenience, the current functionality of the TVM machine at Bache has caused yourself. It is undergoing some maintenance at the present time and we plan on reinstating the card machine by the end of next week.
Please accept our sincere apologies for the inconvenience. If you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us."

Needless to say, it is still out of order.

Interestingly, it was fitted with a new contactless card reader just 3 weeks before card payments were made non-functional.

Polarbear · 17 Jun 2017

Laryk said:
I emailed them about this a few weeks ago, and received this reply on 2nd June:

Needless to say, it is still out of order.

Interestingly, it was fitted with a new contactless card reader just 3 weeks before card payments were made non-functional.

That response doesn't surprise me. When I complained about the inability of the TVM at the unstaffed stations to sell weekly Railpass tickets, I was at first told something about an imminent upgrade (that still hasn't happened about a year on). When I pointed out that none of the TVM's at the unstaffed stations would sell the ticket I required, the story changed to a tale of replacement TVM's being envisaged for the future - and that hasn't happened either.

I expect the somewhat troubled introduction of the "Walrus" smart card for Merseyside has a bearing on this, and I would understand the company's reluctance to spend money on upgrading what may become an obsolete TVM. What I can't understand is the seeming inability to admit that there is a problem & an unwillingness to address that for the benefit of the customer, rather than for the convenience of the operator.

island · 17 Jun 2017

radamfi said:
Things have changed and all NS ticket machines accept Visa/Mastercard for a 0.50 surcharge. GVB/RET accept Visa/Mastercard without surcharge.

Dutch ticket machines have accepted Maestro for many years which meant most Europeans were able to use them, although not including most British and Irish visitors.

More to the point, NS allows (and indeed recommends) nationwide use of PAYG on the OV-chipkaart.

Old Yard Dog · 19 Jun 2017

The OV-chipkaart is a rip off. You need to have a balance of 20 euros even to use it on a train. And it expires after 5 years, so you lose any unused credit.

island · 19 Jun 2017

The credit is (allegedly) transferable to a new OV-chipkaart after the expiry, and (definitely) refundable before it.

And with a surcharge of €1 for not using an OV-chipkaart on NS, even very infrequent users will find it better value.

radamfi · 19 Jun 2017

Old Yard Dog said:
The OV-chipkaart is a rip off. You need to have a balance of 20 euros even to use it on a train.

You only need a minimum balance of 16 euros. Yes, 20 euros are deducted from the card on touch-in, but you are allowed a negative balance, as low as -4 euros. For travel on buses/trams/metros, you are allowed to board with a zero balance. So you can recover some of the cost of the card by putting the card into a negative balance.

If you hold one of the discount cards, the minimum balance is 6 euros as 10 euros are deducted on touch-in.

Old Yard Dog · 23 Jun 2017

The latest unsubstantiated rumour I have heard is that ME have stopped accepting bank cards because of the malicious software attack that recently hit the NHS and others. Apparently ME are worried about a potential hole in their system which could allow hackers to access customer card details. And, allegedly, it would cost ME a five figure sum to upgrade their software which they seem unwilling to pay.

I have no way of verifying whether the above is true or not. Is anybody on this forum in a position to comment?

Merseyrail TVMs no longer accepting bank cards

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