Van Hits Pedestrians near Finsbury Park Mosque

takno · 20 Jun 2017

AlterEgo said:
But we won't, as a society, devote the same brain space, or parliamentary time, or column inches to wondering why there's a rise in the white far right, as we do with wondering how to solve the problem of Islamic extremism.

Really? The rise of the far right has been the subject of more column inches than almost anything else in politics for the last 20 years. I've read hundreds of articles tracing it in Britain through the BNP to the EDL and onwards, in Europe with the awful Le Pens, and in Germany with Pegida. Obviously a lot of the focus in the last year has moved to the US, although that analysis has tended to shine a light on the growing prevalence of far-right extremism in plain view on the internet.

It probably hasn't to this point had the parliamentary attention to match, partly because there has been a dangerous thread in the Tory party who thought they could harness the anger to their own ends. Hopefully that is starting to change.

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AlterEgo · 20 Jun 2017

RichmondCommu said:
Can you think of any community groups which solely represent white people and white working class people?

Not many, except for very fringe communities in some parts of the UK (loyalist communities in East Belfast being one such example which comes to mind) - hence the word "white" was deliberately placed in inverted commas as not denoting exclusive whiteness but predominant whiteness.

The fact is most communities, in the UK, like Anglicanism, or the Catholic Church - are predominantly white and also led predominantly by white people - and those two examples are also part of the "Establishment", officially or otherwise.

Most non-Establishment communities, and particularly those based around race and/or faith, don't get the same scrutiny as everyone else.

Hence, it's interesting to see the recent (and mostly deserved) gross caricaturing of loyalists and DUP supporters in Northern Ireland, the lambasting of their bizarre, woeful and unsuitable leaders, and the rubbishing of their fleg-hanging, drum-bashing, colonial-chic, flute-playing, marching herronvolk culture. Mainstream media would not dare treat a non-white group in the same way.

It's interesting for us to explore why that might be - personally I don't have the answer, but i have noted the difference, and I would challenge anyone to suggest we subject "white" groups and "other race/faith groups" to the same scrutiny, and whether we expect/demand the same standards of community leadership from both.

PS: no offence intended re: loyalist culture - was only trying to display some of the caricature on offer recently - it is in fact a curious and much deeper culture than the English-based MSM usually portray, even if there are endemic problems with the expression of the culture in some areas.

AlterEgo · 20 Jun 2017

takno said:
Really? The rise of the far right has been the subject of more column inches than almost anything else in politics for the last 20 years. I've read hundreds of articles tracing it in Britain through the BNP to the EDL and onwards, in Europe with the awful Le Pens, and in Germany with Pegida. Obviously a lot of the focus in the last year has moved to the US, although that analysis has tended to shine a light on the growing prevalence of far-right extremism in plain view on the internet.

It probably hasn't to this point had the parliamentary attention to match, partly because there has been a dangerous thread in the Tory party who thought they could harness the anger to their own ends. Hopefully that is starting to change.

I personally don't think there has been as much press attention as you suggest - though it's possible one or the other of us (or even both!) may be suffering from confirmation bias. Or perhaps we read different parts of the mainstream media.

I agree with your point on that thread in the Tory party though - certainly an interesting dynamic and something to watch.

takno · 20 Jun 2017

Arctic Troll said:
It isn't just about Islam, you know.

Look at what's happening in the Jewish community. A senior rabbi came out last week with the novel idea that homosexuality and feminism aren't bad things, and why can't we just get on with each other. There's absolute hell on. Everyone else is claiming he should be kicked out of the religion.

But if you dare to criticise their community for reacting like that then you're anti-Semitic.

It's important to bear in mind that he's senior in the orthodox community, which is a smallish if growing part of the overall Jewish community, and it is the orthodox community which is angry about it. I don't think it's anti-semitic to be annoyed by that reaction at all, as long as you bear in mind that the people attacking him are perhaps no more representative of the wider jewish faith than the DUP are of the Church of England.

Senex · 20 Jun 2017

AlterEgo said:
Not many, except for very fringe communities in some parts of the UK (loyalist communities in East Belfast being one such example which comes to mind) - hence the word "white" was deliberately placed in inverted commas as not denoting exclusive whiteness but predominant whiteness.

The fact is most communities, in the UK, like Anglicanism, or the Catholic Church - are predominantly white and also led predominantly by white people - and those two examples are also part of the "Establishment", officially or otherwise.

Most non-Establishment communities, and particularly those based around race and/or faith, don't get the same scrutiny as everyone else.

Hence, it's interesting to see the recent (and mostly deserved) gross caricaturing of loyalists and DUP supporters in Northern Ireland, the lambasting of their bizarre, woeful and unsuitable leaders, and the rubbishing of their fleg-hanging, drum-bashing, colonial-chic, flute-playing, marching herronvolk culture. Mainstream media would not dare treat a non-white group in the same way.

It's interesting for us to explore why that might be - personally I don't have the answer, but i have noted the difference, and I would challenge anyone to suggest we subject "white" groups and "other race/faith groups" to the same scrutiny, and whether we expect/demand the same standards of community leadership from both.

PS: no offence intended re: loyalist culture - was only trying to display some of the caricature on offer recently - it is in fact a curious and much deeper culture than the English-based MSM usually portray, even if there are endemic problems with the expression of the culture in some areas.

Does the difference in treatment arise because anyone can happily have as much of a go as they want at any white/Anglican/Roman Catholic/Evangelical/General Christian group without risking the immediate cries of "racism" from the media and the noisy politically correct groups in society. So the UDP (and Sinn Fein if the boot were on the other foot) are seen as fair game, whereas Wahhabi/Deobandi are protected not because of any religious sensitivities but because their practitioners tend to be from immigrant and non-white communities?

RichmondCommu · 20 Jun 2017

Senex said:
Does the difference in treatment arise because anyone can happily have as much of a go as they want at any white/Anglican/Roman Catholic/Evangelical/General Christian group without risking the immediate cries of "racism" from the media and the noisy politically correct groups in society. So the UDP (and Sinn Fein if the boot were on the other foot) are seen as fair game, whereas Wahhabi/Deobandi are protected not because of any religious sensitivities but because their practitioners tend to be from immigrant and non-white communities?

I've not seen any evidence that they are protected, either by the vast majority of Muslims in this country or by the Government / media.

takno · 20 Jun 2017

AlterEgo said:
Hence, it's interesting to see the recent (and mostly deserved) gross caricaturing of loyalists and DUP supporters in Northern Ireland, the lambasting of their bizarre, woeful and unsuitable leaders, and the rubbishing of their fleg-hanging, drum-bashing, colonial-chic, flute-playing, marching herronvolk culture. Mainstream media would not dare treat a non-white group in the same way.

As one example Abu-Hamza was relentlessly (and rightly) mocked and pilloried. The volume of mocking naturally goes with their visibility in the news. If there were muslims with equally strong views in government in a nation of the UK and potentially holding the balance of power in the UK parliament they would receive more of all kinds of attention. If you start mocking people most folk have never heard of the big risk is that you bring those people into the mainstream

AlterEgo · 20 Jun 2017

RichmondCommu said:
I've not seen any evidence that they are protected, either by the vast majority of Muslims in this country or by the Government / media.

They certainly aren't afforded protection, no; that would be the wrong term - merely a lesser level of scrutiny, so I argue.

sk688 · 20 Jun 2017

One media figure who has impressed me , is someone I did not expect at all

Piers Morgan

Normally I am no fan of the man , but his response to the various horrific incidences this monrh , has been remarkable

He tore into Gove over Grenfell

Today on GMB , he sparred with that bigoted lowlife Tommy Robinson over this incident in Finsbury Park

No big fan of the man , but he has been quite good this month

najaB · 20 Jun 2017

sk688 said:
I've never really agreed with Morgan at all , but this month he has been quite good imo

A stopped clock is right twice a day.

Tetchytyke · 20 Jun 2017

AlterEgo said:
Mainstream media would not dare treat a non-white group in the same way.

I can't think of a BME community that is quite as outlandish as the Orange Order, marching up and down through Catholic communities "celebrating" a military battle that happened more than 400 years ago.

My personal view is that the Orange Order get too little scrutiny, not too much, because they are a White Anglican* community. The Orange Order have recently (as in the last 5-10 years) set up a march in Newcastle upon Tyne- naturally it starts right outside the Catholic cathedral and goes past the (Catholic) Irish Centre- and everybody just shrugs.

I don't think "white" (I use this term carefully: when I used to attend Catholic Mass, more than half the congregation were non-British, mostly African and Eastern European) religious groups get any more scrutiny than other religious groups.

Senex · 20 Jun 2017

AlterEgo said:
They certainly aren't afforded protection, no; that would be the wrong term - merely a lesser level of scrutiny, so I argue.

My choice of "protected" was the wrong word -- "a lesser level of scrutiny" is both more accurate and much better, though I personally would wish to modify that to something like "a vastly lesser level of scrutiny".

NorthernSpirit · 20 Jun 2017

RichmondCommu said:
Why is it the "worst possible time"? In all fairness I suspect what happened in Manchester and London this year has got nothing to do with it; the bloke who did this is racist and hates none whites. The fact that he targeted Muslims is just an excuse for violence.

What I mean by worse possible time is the fact that there has been in a short space of time a series of attacks and then a high rise goes up in smoke and now this. Those who have been affect by the Grenfell fire are going to be hit even more as the left have hijacked their cause, again worse possible time as the sensible people will see what is going on and will not support those who have been affected and the fault will always lie to the left.

----

GusB said:
Who gives a monkey's about whether he was religious or not? The guy mowed people down on the pavement. Whether this act was intentional or not I would prefer to leave it to a court to decide. And what does him being Welsh have to do with it?

Do you think ISIS are religious? I don't, I see them as tanned athiests who have hijacked a religion and used it to carry out attacks on others.

Put it this way, if a Muslim attacks a Christian - the left will blame the Christian. If its an athiest who attacks a Muslim oh shock horror, its wacist (the only word the left really have and quite frankly they should open their eyes and grow up pretty fast judging by the behavour of them as they act as if their five years old).

GusB said:
Wind yer neck in.

Isn't it great when the left always cry foul or that everything to them is wacist - just grow up and stop voting Labour or SNP as its not doing you much good.

Socialism is dead, its a failed ideology and yet some want to be told what to do, well if you love socialism that much why not move to North Korea - its a socialists wet dream.

najaB · 20 Jun 2017

NorthernSpirit said:
Put it this way, if a Muslim attacks a Christian - the left will blame the Christian.

Do you have any examples of this? It sounds insane.

NorthernSpirit · 20 Jun 2017

Arctic Troll said:
He's a Welshman who has committed a terrorist attack. Why aren't the Welsh leaders on TV denouncing him? Where are the pillars of the Welsh community standing up and saying that they disagree with terrorism? The Welsh have gone awfully quiet about it. The Welsh must have known about him, why didn't they report him to the authorities?

The Welsh must agree with him. Therefore we need to clamp down on the Welsh. Intern them without trial. Take their passports off them.

Exactly and normally I don't don't agree with Arctic Troll but on this occation I do.

backontrack · 20 Jun 2017

Paul Sidorczuk said:
The Jo Cox murder showed that white extremists are quite prepared to commit murder.

I agree completely. And they are still terrorists too, because they are trying to incite terror. We mustn't shy away from this as a nation; we have to face up to exponents of Islamophobia as much as we have to face up to supporters of jihadism.

People have been saying "we cannot let fear divide us" for the month or so.
And that's true at the end of the day, no matter how much of a soundbite it sounds like. When we are divided, innocent people always come out the worse for it. We have to be united if we want to beat terrorism. That's just the truth.

My thoughts, once again, are with all those affected by this tragedy (though for obvious reasons not the perpetrator). Apparently one person is paralysed for life.

me123 · 20 Jun 2017

NorthernSpirit said:
Do you think ISIS are religious? I don't, I see them as tanned athiests who have hijacked a religion and used it to carry out attacks on others.

hock:

I've seen Daesh referred to as many things, but "atheist" is a new one on me! By definition the group is religious. It is Islamic. Membership is contingent (in part) of following the Islamic faith. The particular flavour of Islam followed (enforced) by its members is of course extreme and repulsive, and is rightly rejected by the vast majority of Muslims and reasonable humans around the world, but they are most certainly a religious organisation. As much so as the Ku Klux Klan is a Christian organisation.

NorthernSpirit said:
Put it this way, if a Muslim attacks a Christian - the left will blame the Christian. If its an athiest who attacks a Muslim oh shock horror, its wacist (the only word the left really have and quite frankly they should open their eyes and grow up pretty fast judging by the behavour of them as they act as if their five years old).

...

Socialism is dead, its a failed ideology and yet some want to be told what to do, well if you love socialism that much why not move to North Korea - its a socialists wet dream.

What a load of drivel. [adds user to ignore list to prevent wasting any more time]

PS: The word "wacist" doesn't appear to exist. If you're looking for the word "racist", it is traditionally spelled with the letter R.

Tetchytyke · 20 Jun 2017

NorthernSpirit said:
I don't don't agree with Arctic Troll but on this occation I do.

An example of spectacularly missing the point

YorkshireBear · 21 Jun 2017

NorthernSpirit said:
Do you think ISIS are religious? I don't, I see them as tanned athiests who have hijacked a religion and used it to carry out attacks on others.

Put it this way, if a Muslim attacks a Christian - the left will blame the Christian. If its an athiest who attacks a Muslim oh shock horror, its wacist (the only word the left really have and quite frankly they should open their eyes and grow up pretty fast judging by the behavour of them as they act as if their five years old).

Isn't it great when the left always cry foul or that everything to them is wacist - just grow up and stop voting Labour or SNP as its not doing you much good.

Socialism is dead, its a failed ideology and yet some want to be told what to do, well if you love socialism that much why not move to North Korea - its a socialists wet dream.

I would consider myself left. Along with a significant amount of my social group.

Never once have i seen anyone blame the christian when attacked by a muslim. Not even slightly. I have seen people say that we all need to take responsibility for trying to prevent terrorism. Which does not mean it was the Christian's fault. It means that by sharing posts about how muslim are scum and spreading hate all we do is provide food to the propaganda of ISIS. And the reason we discuss this, is because although not the full solution to preventing terrorism and certainly by no means the most important, it is one of the only things we can do to help as a mainly non muslim community (where I am from). Do we think the muslim community need to be the main people tackling the problem? Yes. Do we think they need as much support as we can offer? Yes.

Some lefties do do what you say. Just as some Muslims like to blow people up. Just as some christians wandered around in white cloaks burning black people. By tarnishing everyone with the same brush you are just coming across as ignorant and frankly stupid. Take people at face value.

61653 HTAFC · 21 Jun 2017

NorthernSpirit said:
What I mean by worse possible time is the fact that there has been in a short space of time a series of attacks and then a high rise goes up in smoke and now this. Those who have been affect by the Grenfell fire are going to be hit even more as the left have hijacked their cause, again worse possible time as the sensible people will see what is going on and will not support those who have been affected and the fault will always lie to the left.
----
Do you think ISIS are religious? I don't, I see them as tanned athiests who have hijacked a religion and used it to carry out attacks on others.

Put it this way, if a Muslim attacks a Christian - the left will blame the Christian. If its an athiest who attacks a Muslim oh shock horror, its wacist (the only word the left really have and quite frankly they should open their eyes and grow up pretty fast judging by the behavour of them as they act as if their five years old).

Isn't it great when the left always cry foul or that everything to them is wacist - just grow up and stop voting Labour or SNP as its not doing you much good.

Socialism is dead, its a failed ideology and yet some want to be told what to do, well if you love socialism that much why not move to North Korea - its a socialists wet dream.

Oh, the irony!

me123 said:
hock:

I've seen Daesh referred to as many things, but "atheist" is a new one on me! By definition the group is religious. It is Islamic. Membership is contingent (in part) of following the Islamic faith. The particular flavour of Islam followed (enforced) by its members is of course extreme and repulsive, and is rightly rejected by the vast majority of Muslims and reasonable humans around the world, but they are most certainly a religious organisation. As much so as the Ku Klux Klan is a Christian organisation.

What a load of drivel. [adds user to ignore list to prevent wasting any more time]

PS: The word "wacist" doesn't appear to exist. If you're looking for the word "racist", it is traditionally spelled with the letter R.

NorthernSpirit's post is among the most insane and reactionary statements I've ever seen on these forums, and that's against some pretty tough competition!

I hope that said member will take the time to educate himself both about where the balance of power sits in the UK (A clue: it isn't on the left!) and about how the majority of the print media has a vested interest in persuading those at the bottom of the pile to turn against each other and to vote against their own interest. Turkeys voting for Christmas.

yorkie · 25 Jun 2017

Arctic Troll said:
But if you dare to criticise their community for reacting like that then you're anti-Semitic.

Any chance of a link and quote? I will be happy to criticise them for that, and I am sure others would too.

yorkie · 25 Jun 2017

NorthernSpirit said:
...Put it this way, if a Muslim attacks a Christian - the left will blame the Christian. If its an athiest who attacks a Muslim oh shock horror, its wacist (the only word the left really have and quite frankly they should open their eyes and grow up pretty fast judging by the behavour of them as they act as if their five years old).....

Do you have any sources for this? It sounds like nonsense to me. Also, what do you mean by "the left"? How broad are you using that term?

najaB · 25 Jun 2017

yorkie said:
Do you have any sources for this?

Same question asked five days ago - still waiting for an answer.

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