Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

Dai Corner · 21 Jun 2017

Paul Sidorczuk said:
In a disaster such as this, a replacement home to go to is surely the most civilised thing in Britain in 2017 for affected families, wherever it may be.

Indeed. There was a lot of talk about rehousing them in the immediate vicinity but I'd bet there are some who'd rather not see the burnt out tower every day and would like to move away. A practical form of help from wealthy celebrities would be to provide some replacement homes. They may even have a few spare and ready furnished already.

RailUK Forums

Railops · 21 Jun 2017

Today's day of rage will not do anything whatsoever for the Grenfell residents.Thursdays papers will have the usual pictures of masked anarchists lumping poles through shop windows whilst holding banners declaring solidarity with Grenfell.
These pictures will go round the world and people will lose sympathy because of leftwing agitators jumping on the bandwagon.
The police really don't need this on possibly the hottest day of the year whilst already stretched to breaking point.

Dai Corner · 21 Jun 2017

Railops said:
Today's day of rage will not do anything whatsoever for the Grenfell residents.Thursdays papers will have the usual pictures of masked anarchists lumping poles through shop windows whilst holding banners declaring solidarity with Grenfell.
These pictures will go round the world and people will lose sympathy because of leftwing agitators jumping on the bandwagon.
The police really don't need this on possibly the hottest day of the year whilst already stretched to breaking point.

That sounds rather like 'The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims' AKA terrorism.

AlterEgo · 21 Jun 2017

Dai Corner said:
That sounds rather like 'The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims' AKA terrorism.

Are we comparing the Day of Rage (which hasn't happened yet) with terrorism?

Xenophon PCDGS · 21 Jun 2017

To use a term such as "rage" which the dictionary definition that I saw says is "violent uncontrollable anger" is something that one does not normally associate with a protest that should be dignified as a true reflection of the grief suffered by those residents.

Dai Corner · 21 Jun 2017

AlterEgo said:
Are we comparing the Day of Rage (which hasn't happened yet) with terrorism?

We don't know what will happen yet, but smashing windows is a violent, illegal act designed to intimidate and the action is for political ends so it fits the definition. I think most people would be terrified if an angry mob gathered outside and smashed their windows.

Dai Corner · 21 Jun 2017

Paul Sidorczuk said:
To use a term such as "rage" which the dictionary definition that I saw says is "violent uncontrollable anger" is something that one does not normally associate with a protest that should be dignified as a true reflection of the grief suffered by those residents.

I think the 'day of rage' was planned ages ago, but they've added Grenfell to the list of things they're protesting about. Whether the victims asked for this I don't know.

Tetchytyke · 21 Jun 2017

Bromley boy said:
virtue-signalling

That phrase automatically negates any point you may or may not have had.

The fact you, and everyone else who uses the term, automatically assumes that everyone is disingenuous and self-centred says more about you and the circles you move in than anything else.

how many celebrities and politicians would turn out and offer to help if my house/flat burned down?

Politicians and celebrities were out in force during the flooding in Somerset and Carlisle.

What was your point again?

Railops · 21 Jun 2017

Arctic Troll said:
Politicians and celebrities were out in force during the flooding in Somerset and Carlisle.

Can you name the celebrities who were out in force in Somerset.

Tetchytyke · 21 Jun 2017

Dai Corner said:
I think the 'day of rage' was planned ages ago, but they've added Grenfell to the list of things they're protesting about. Whether the victims asked for this I don't know.

Some victims say not, some victims say yes, some have no opinion either way. But then there's no one victim group, so opinions will differ, as with everything.

The organisers of the "Day of Rage" are well known as the sort of people who'd protest the opening of an envelope if it'd get them on the telly. Look at the state of people like Antonia Bright, who can always be relied on to claim that anything from Brexit to Heathrow Airport is racist, if only you'll listen to her.

AlterEgo · 21 Jun 2017

Dai Corner said:
We don't know what will happen yet, but smashing windows is a violent, illegal act designed to intimidate and the action is for political ends so it fits the definition. I think most people would be terrified if an angry mob gathered outside and smashed their windows.

I think describing smashing shop windows as terrorism completely distorts the contemporary definition of terrorism.

You could say that a right-wing individual pushing a left-wing protestor and calling them "an unwashed lefty tosser and Thatcher would have sorted them out" was

1) violent
2) illegal
3) done to intimidate
4) political

...but it wouldn't be terrorism.

One day the citing of dictionary definitions will be banned from online discourse, but it won't be today I guess!

AlterEgo · 21 Jun 2017

Arctic Troll said:
Look at the state of people like Antonia Bright, who can always be relied on to claim that anything from Brexit to Heathrow Airport is racist, if only you'll listen to her.

Antonia Bright is an example of reverse nominative determinism if ever there was one.

Bromley boy · 21 Jun 2017

Arctic Troll said:
That phrase automatically negates any point you may or may not have had.

The fact you, and everyone else who uses the term, automatically assumes that everyone is disingenuous and self-centred says more about you and the circles you move in than anything else.

Politicians and celebrities were out in force during the flooding in Somerset and Carlisle.

What was your point again?

What nonsense.

Virtue signalling strikes me as a perfectly apt term which, from the Wikipedia posted earlier, encapsulates the current situation very well indeed:

commonly used as a pejorative characterization by commentators to criticize what they regard as the platitudinous, empty, or superficial support of certain political views,

If you'd really can't see how cynical many media personalities are in exploiting events such as this for their own ends, as opposed to perhaps keeping quiet and making anonymous donations*, then I'm afraid it is you who is being naive.

The "circles I move in" are ordinary working people from wide range of backgrounds, income levels and industries, many of whom have expressed views along the lines of the above, most of whom don't comment on Internet forums such as this.

*perhaps some of them do and more power to them if so although, of course, we will never know about it.

Tetchytyke · 21 Jun 2017

Bromley boy said:
If you'd really can't see how cynical many media personalities are in exploiting events such as this for their own ends, as opposed to perhaps keeping quiet and making anonymous donations*, then I'm afraid it is you who is being naive.

What ends might these be? Adele has an MBE and more Grammys than you can shake a stick at. If there's something she doesn't need, it is publicity.

The phrase "virtue signalling" is nothing more than a nasty and petty attempt to close down debate. Anyone who uses it is saying "how dare you be famous and have an opinion that disagrees with mine?". The use of it immediately negates any point the user may or may not have had.

It's funny how it wasn't "virtue-signalling" when Nigel Farage went for a splash with his media entourage around Somerset after the flooding.

Railops · 21 Jun 2017

Arctic Troll said:
It's funny how it wasn't "virtue-signalling" when Nigel Farage went for a splash with his media entourage around Somerset after the flooding.

When are you going to list all the celebrities that were out in force in Somerset ?

PhilipRhayader · 21 Jun 2017

I am heartily sickened by the ridiculous posturing of some posters - why don't they do something of real value instead of mouthing off?

https://secure.thebiggive.org.uk/grenfell?utm_source=Donors+made+on+theBigGive.org.uk&utm_campaign=19cd190663-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_06_21&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b215f65057-19cd190663-45710629

Tetchytyke · 21 Jun 2017

Dai Corner said:
smashing windows is a violent, illegal act designed to intimidate

Oh for goodness' sake, if we go down that route then any political protest that gets a bit edgy is "terrorism".

How about Britain First protesters verbally abusing and shoving a young Muslim woman with the intention of intimidating her? Should we consider that to be terrorism too?

Is this terrorism? Would it have been terrorism if she was a weaker person who had been intimidated by the right wing thugs?

chris89 · 21 Jun 2017

For anyone who is interested, My Local Co-op we apparently raised about £230 over Saturday/ Sunday. Also it was across the whole of the Mid Counties Coop's as well, as was asked to work at another store on Monday and asked them.

Tetchytyke · 21 Jun 2017

PhilipRhayader said:
I am heartily sickened by the ridiculous posturing of some posters - why don't they do something of real value instead of mouthing off?

Ah, but if I don't publicly say I've donated then you don't know what I've done, but I do publicly say I've donated then I'm virtue-signalling.

What a dilemma.

Railops · 21 Jun 2017

sk688 said:
And this is related to the Grenfell Tower because ?

Why not ask the person who posted it in this thread. Is it now another rule that when somebody posts an apparent fact they fail to back up when questioned it's the questioner that's at fault.

sk688 · 21 Jun 2017

Railops said:
Today's day of rage will not do anything whatsoever for the Grenfell residents.Thursdays papers will have the usual pictures of masked anarchists lumping poles through shop windows whilst holding banners declaring solidarity with Grenfell.
These pictures will go round the world and people will lose sympathy because of leftwing agitators jumping on the bandwagon.
The police really don't need this on possibly the hottest day of the year whilst already stretched to breaking point.

So you would rather not have the protest then ?

Effectively banning free speech , putting us equivalent with countries like North Korea

Dai Corner · 21 Jun 2017

Arctic Troll said:
Oh for goodness' sake, if we go down that route then any political protest that gets a bit edgy is "terrorism".

How about Britain First protesters verbally abusing and shoving a young Muslim woman with the intention of intimidating her? Should we consider that to be terrorism too?

Is this terrorism? Would it have been terrorism if she was a weaker person who had been intimidated by the right wing thugs?

I quoted a definition and said that smashing windows as part of a politically-motivated event could be regarded as terrorism.

It's a grey area but would you agree that one of the key differences between murder, arson, criminal damage and verbal or physical assault and terrorism is the motivation behind it? There is also the scale of the crime of course.

(Sorry, mods, for getting off topic for this thread).

Railops · 21 Jun 2017

sk688 said:
So you would rather not have the protest then ?

Effectively banning free speech , putting us equivalent with countries like North Korea

The Grenfell residents and charities don't want a potentially violent "day of rage" protest to take place in their name and have said so, nothing to do with me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/21/day-rage-live-grenfell-tower-protest-london-fire-queens-speech/

The Clement James Centre, which has been helping those displaced by the fire, shunned the movement as opportunistic.
"We cannot emphasise enough how against this many of the affected residents we've spoken to are and they do not want their grief hijacked for any violent or destructive means," a spokesman said.
The Kensington and Chelsea branch of Age UK has also criticised the “Day of Rage”, pointing out streets will have to be closed to control any crowds while The Love Golborne community website, based in North Kensington, said: “Grenfell residents are totally opposed... They do not want their grief hijacked.”

Tetchytyke · 21 Jun 2017

Railops said:
When are you going to list all the celebrities that were out in force in Somerset ?

I'm not sure what this has to do with the victims of the Grenfell Tower fire, and I think you're simply trolling by diversion.

But The Wurzels and the Reverend and the Makers played a benefit gig. You couldn't move for politicians. Is Prince Charles famous enough for you?

Sir Patrick Stewart and the England footballer Scott Carson donated plenty, and the comedian Ed Byrne played a benefit gig, when Carlisle flooded too.

Cue a pointless response from you about how x were only famous 30 years ago, how you've never heard of y and z, and why blahblahblah [yawn].

Point was that politicians and celebrities coming out isn't exclusive to this fire, it happens whenever there is a destructive disaster, but no, Prince Charles probably won't come to my house when I overfill the bath.

Now where were we?

BestWestern · 21 Jun 2017

Arctic Troll said:
What ends might these be? Adele has an MBE and more Grammys than you can shake a stick at. If there's something she doesn't need, it is publicity.

The phrase "virtue signalling" is nothing more than a nasty and petty attempt to close down debate. Anyone who uses it is saying "how dare you be famous and have an opinion that disagrees with mine?". The use of it immediately negates any point the user may or may not have had.

It's funny how it wasn't "virtue-signalling" when Nigel Farage went for a splash with his media entourage around Somerset after the flooding.

Celebrities need a constant supply of fresh publicity, it's like oxygen to them. Being famous is a very competitive marketplace, and it doesn't matter how many awards you won with your last album, you need to remain current so that people haven't forgotten all about you by the time your next one comes out. That's why celebrities sponsor things; it's a means of making sure their face is forced on people every day, it isn't because they have some sort of dedicated belief in the product, whatever it may be. Additional media exposure in the context of being a 'good guy' in the face of adversity is pure gold.

Adele has been very adept at building her 'nice lady next door' image to endear herself to her fanbase and the wider public, in addition to her primary business of making music. She may very well be a lovely girl, or her agents may well have directed her to create that image, we'll never know. But as others have said, by far the most beneficial way of helping out here would be to have made a generous donation to the relief fund, rather than turning up at a fire station for a photo opportunity. Indeed, I rather imagine that there are probably many more who might have even better reason to thank the firefighters, not least those who they carried out of the burning building. However, most of them have more pressing issues to attend to.

Railops · 21 Jun 2017

Arctic Troll said:
I'm not sure what this has to do with the victims of the Grenfell Tower fire, but The Wurzels and the Reverend and the Makers played a benefit gig. You couldn't move for politicians. Is Prince Charles famous enough for you?

Sir Patrick Stewart and the England footballer Scott Carson donated plenty, and the comedian Ed Byrne played a benefit gig, when Carlisle flooded too.

Cue a pointless response from you about how x were only famous 30 years ago, how you've never heard of y and z, and why blahblahblah [yawn].

Point was that politicians and celebrities coming out isn't exclusive to this fire, it happens whenever there is a destructive disaster, but no, Prince Charles probably won't come to my house when I overfill the bath.

Now where were we?

I knew that Somerset didn't have celebrities "out in force" because I was there at the time I just wanted you to admit an error.
It's nothing to do with the thread title but you are the one who made a statement that is untrue as no celebrities were "out in force" in Somerset as frankly it didn't matter to them and they had no interest in it.

Tetchytyke · 21 Jun 2017

BestWestern said:
turning up at a fire station for a photo opportunity.

Adele actually turned up in secret, on her own, and the "photo opportunity" was nothing more than the firefighters who met her posting their selfies on Twitter.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...e-station-firefighters-tea-cake-a7798471.html

They said a woman wearing sunglasses arrived with cake on Monday and only revealed her identity after they opened the door.

Station manager Ben King said: She just turned up at the station and knocked on the window and said she has some cakes for us.

So we opened the door to her and then she took her sunglasses off and said, Hi, Im Adele. Everyone was so shocked.

Tetchytyke · 21 Jun 2017

[deleted]

Bromley boy · 21 Jun 2017

sk688 said:
So you would rather not have the protest then ?

Effectively banning free speech , putting us equivalent with countries like North Korea

If it's a dignified, peaceful protest to show solidarity with the Grenfell tower victims then good luck to them.

If it's a jack-booted rent-a-mob collection of anti-capitalist agitators, rageing against the machine, intent on bringing the government down by any means necessary, including property damage and physical violence, I'm less in favour of it.

Press coverage suggests the residents themselves are against the demo. Sadly this tends to suggest this protest will be more along the lines of the latter than the former.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.st...stice-why-are-they-marching-a3569771.html?amp

Community groups working closely with the victims of the Grenfell Tower tragedy have condemned activists for trying to “hijack” the grief of survivors of the fire.

Volunteers at the Clement James Centre, who are providing aid to survivors, said they “cannot emphasise enough” how much Grenfell residents are against the demo.

AlterEgo · 21 Jun 2017

I'd be very careful with quotes in newspapers from unnamed sources.

Breaking down the ES missive on the protest:

Community groups (which ones? The article only names one group) working closely with the victims of the Grenfell Tower tragedy have condemned activists for trying to “hijack” (It's in quotes - so who said this?) the grief of survivors of the fire.

Volunteers (which ones? Who?) at the Clement James Centre, who are providing aid to survivors, said they “cannot emphasise enough” how much Grenfell residents are against the demo. (why are the quote marks only against "cannot emphasise enough" with nothing added - hmm?)

Others (who are they? why not name them or say who they are or represent?) have claimed the hard-Left protestors are “despicably” using the tragedy to pedal their own agenda.

Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

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