Class 345 progress

GW43125 said:

This has probably been mentioned already, but on Saturday I saw a rather grubby 345 coupled to a loco in the Crewe area. Anyone know the story behind this one?

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It's been there for a couple of weeks now. There's been a class 08 at the front for the last week but I don't think it has moved in all that time.

Looking forward to giving it a try tomorrow hopefully. Can't comment on the 345s but having travelled on 315s from time to time I find them far from comfortable and, acceleration aside, not really ideal in the peaks for the short journeys that most use them for.

Now the 306s, they were superb.

I travelled on it earlier today... am trying to get a video out tonight.

I was only able to travel from Ilford to Stratford because of a busy day and that I only read my daily digest and other emails at around 11am, by which time it was too late to catch it on its way towards Shenfield.

Yes its swish and all that, with many full colour real time displays.

Sorry can't say more... need to continue editing that video!

Simon

From the video I liked on the previous page earlier today, I do hope the DVA and PIS is updated soon. It is far too basic and although I understand the move towards simplicity, announcements with "Next station, Seven Kings" should IMHO just be changed to "The next station is Seven Kings". There was no need to change it.

Someone mentioned that one of the TfL people said it was in an attempt to be more like the RER in Paris. The PIS on the RER trains is rubbish with the DVA literally announcing the name of the next station and nothing else.

Uzair said:

From the video I liked on the previous page earlier today, I do hope the DVA and PIS is updated soon. It is far too basic and although I understand the move towards simplicity, announcements with "Next station, Seven Kings" should IMHO just be changed to "The next station is Seven Kings". There was no need to change it.

Someone mentioned that one of the TfL people said it was in an attempt to be more like the RER in Paris. The PIS on the RER trains is rubbish with the DVA literally announcing the name of the next station and nothing else.

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I would have hoped for Celia Drummond to voice the announcements, but Emma's new announcements seem just as good. Excuse me for drifting off topic but is it true that the SWT Class 707s will not have Celia as the DVA? [emoji53]

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jaiguerrero3 said:

I would have hoped for Celia Drummond to voice the announcements, but Emma's new announcements seem just as good. Excuse me for drifting off topic but is it true that the SWT Class 707s will not have Celia as the DVA? [emoji53]

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Yes that's correct. The 707s are unfortunately using Acapela Rachael (which is a Text To Speech system).

I don't see a problem at all with the 'terse' format of the PIS. It reduces the amount of verbal clutter to the minimum, and the big, bold text will be easier to read and understand from a distance (especially for people with English as a second language, and people who are visually impaired or have learning difficulties.) It also makes people less likely to 'tune out' the voice of the announcements by not surrounding them in unnecessary guff about CCTV, keeping your personal belongings with you, reporting anything suspicious, etc.

I hope the people decrying it as 'too basic' never try riding on a London bus, where Emma has been making even more 'basic' announcements for over ten years now!

Via Bank said:

I hope the people decrying it as 'too basic' never try riding on a London bus, where Emma has been making even more 'basic' announcements for over ten years now!

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I agree, thought it was refreshingly straightforward. Studies show time and time again that people don't read details. Just look at the GOV.UK website and how straightforward the layout is, this is a design directly influenced by studying what people actually read and want to do on a website in a hurry - simple is better.

We rail enthusiasts can always look up the fine detail on a Smartphone app or whatever anyway.

Uzair said:

with the DVA literally announcing the name of the next station and nothing else.

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The announce the station name twice with a sensible pause between the two times so if you miss it the first time you know to be ready for the second time. When I am in Paris, I always find that method is much clearer than our UK style long blatherings.

OK I think I'm all caught up on the posts - I'm having a go at travelling on 2Z05 tomorrow so fingers crossed it goes ahead. I've watched the few videos that have popped up on youtube so far and honestly, although I'll have to try them myself to get the full picture, I'm very impressed with what I've seen so far.

swt_class_450 said:

I went on the 345 this morning and have to say these are a complete pile of rubbish compared to the 315s in my opinion. I much prefer the 315s. It was certainly nice though to have a ride on them and to see what they were like.

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Honestly, I think this is rather unfair criticism. Far be it for me to stand up for something I haven't tried yet, but rubbish compared to a 315 because the A/C isn't cool enough and there aren't plug sockets?
The longitudinal seating was never going to be popular, but fundamentally it's the right choice. For outer-edge commuters like me using the trains from Brentwood, there'll be transverse seats free when I get on in the AM peak and some will come free towards the end of the line on the way home as per now. For those commuting from places where there will only be longitudinal seats, they'll be looking at sub-30 min journey times into zone 1, so it's not really an issue.
People have to get the idea that this is a long-distance mainline rail service out of their heads, just because the total route length is 60 miles. It's a scaled-up tube line, and given the level of demand, it has to be. Even with the current terminating service, the 315s are so full at Stratford it's a real gamble whether you can even board the train, let alone get a seat. That is the situation the trains are designed to solve, not seating comfort in general.
That said, 315 seats honestly aren't all that wonderful as older unit seating goes, so I highly doubt even the longitudinal ones will be much less comfortable.
You would never see a train with longitudinal seats get plug sockets, in my opinion. Can you imagine them fitting plug sockets to the deep tube stock? High density metro services neither suit it, or need it. Maybe the transverse seating areas could get them for the odd few passengers doing 40+ minute runs on the units, but really, I can see why they didn't. Offering WiFi in my opinion is frankly good enough.
As for the unit length, in principle I agree, but you'd never get enough of the stations outside the core extended to that length. Look at all the issues there are with other London suburban metro routes being limited to 10 cars. At the 9-car length the units will be when the tunnels open, that's the equivalent of a 10-car EMU with 20m vehicles - and given the walk-through carriages and lack of intermediate cabs, closer to 11 in terms of square footage. Add the much higher density layout, I think what we have here is as good as you could get given the concept of Crossrail.
And as for four doors each side, weren't you just complaining about the lack of seats? With doors as wide as that, 27 (ultimately) double-leaf doors per train should be enough.

The PIS I wasn't sure about when I heard it would have basic announcements, but having heard it on video, honestly I really like it. It's such a refreshing change from the announcement spam you usually get. The only flaw at present seems to be the long gap between the station announcement and the 'change here for' / 'alight here for'.
Also, alight at Stratford for the QE2 olympic park but no mention of Westfield? That surprised me a bit.

J-2739 said:

I don't know, I think quite a lot of passengers would not travel from Shenfield all the way to Reading

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I did the Maths and I'd save 20 minutes by going Brentwood to Paddington and getting a (what will then be) 800/802 to Reading, so that's what I'd do in those circumstances.

CNBRAil said:

Yep it's an exterior door not in use indicator (If you mean the one towards the top of the door lead)

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Thanks, makes sense.

I thought the plan with the pis is to show a line diagram with the positioln of the train on the diagram and the next few stops.

It does - see https://youtu.be/Ex1XbNwARlc?t=193

swt class 450 said:

I went on the 345 this morning and have to say these are a complete pile of rubbish compared to the 315s in my opinion. I much prefer the 315s. It was certainly nice though to have a ride on them and to see what they were like.

Firstly the air conditioning was alright and seemed to work well. However the air conditioning certainly wasn't as good as some other trains (for example the 700s and some other Siemens Desiro trains have much better cooler air conditioning).

The 315s are much more comfortable and pleasent to travel on. The 315s have a normal seating layout where as the 345s have far too much longitudal seating. The seats on the 315s also feel a bit more comfortable than the 345s. The 345s are totally unsuitable for the type of work they will be used on. They feel like the sort of trains that should be found on short distance metro services (like the Victoria Line) rather than long distance National Rail services from Reading to Shenfield etc. The lack of much luggage space is also a failure considering they will be used to and from Heathrow Airport soon.

The lack of door close buttons is a huge mistake. I don't know who decided this. In the summer (to keep it cool) and in the winter (to keep it warm) passengers should be able to close the doors themselves. I know the doors close automatically after 30 seconds (or something like that) but that is not good enough as passengers should have the option to close the doors when they wish to.

The automated announcements and display screens are alright but it is certainly not as good as the 315s. I'm glad though that they choose Emma Hignett rather then some robotic voice which lots of TOCs seem to be doing (such as the SWT 707s which are going to be using the Acapela Rachael [Text To Speech] system). The 315s would list all the stations that the train is calling at on departure from each and every station but the 345s don't do this. So the information they give to passengers is going downhill (which is typical of TFL seeing that they wont ever publish paper timetables any more).

The lack of plug sockets is another big mistake. Nowadays plug sockets are a big necessity on all trains. I would say plug sockets are more important than WIFI on trains. Especially as these are National Rail trains being used for long distances.

The final (and perhaps the biggest failure) is not building these as 12 coach trains. I know they will eventually be extended to 9 coaches but that still wont be enough. Within a few years of Crossrail opening it will be far too overcrowded. So 12 coach 345s should of been built. Less than 12 coaches wont be enough.

Also i believe they should have been built with four doors on each side (similar to the C stock) to help with overcrowding and boarding and alighting times in Central London. There is plenty of room for a four door layout.

So overall in my opinion the trains are poorly designed and unsuitable for the work they will be used on.

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You contradict yourself throughout your post - you can't complain about the longitudinal seating, but also complain that it is going to be overcrowded and there are not enough doors. I bet you're one of those people that stands in front of the doors pushing to board whilst passengers are still alighting :roll:

005 has gone out for a repeat run today.

samuelmorris said:

It does - see https://youtu.be/Ex1XbNwARlc?t=193

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I think the PIS is simple BUT straight to the point. It's much better seeing as these trains will centrally be used by hundreds of Tourists who may not be great with English.

I assumed that was the reason 'is the nn:nn service to' was changed to 'is the nn:nn train to' - it sounds odd and is not something I personally like, but you can understand how international visitors might be confused what the word service refers to.

Just boarded. The train looks a thousand times better in the flesh than in photos. Maybe this is the honeymoon period? Haha.

"Next Station Brentwood" sounds awful, doesn't seem like a good use of English

Why doesn't it say
"The next station is: Brentwood" or even "Next Station is: Brentwood"

The lack of a colon after "Next Station" on the screen is also weird.

Is there likely to be a big timetable change in December or May to take advantage of the superior acceleration of the 345s?

EdinburghTrain said:

"Next Station Brentwood" sounds awful, doesn't seem like a good use of English

Why doesn't it say
"The next station is: Brentwood" or even "Next Station is: Brentwood"

The lack of a colon after "Next Station" on the screen is also weird.

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I thought the DVA saying "This is the Liverpool Street train" instead of "This is a Liverpool Street train" was somehow weird. Maybe just because I'm used to the other.

absolutelymilk said:

Is there likely to be a big timetable change in December or May to take advantage of the superior acceleration of the 345s?

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There'll only be 11 of them by the end of the year apparently. Most services will still be 315s.

There are 44 TfL Rail Class 315s, about the equivalent of 22 345s, so by May 2018 the fleet should be mostly 345s?

ijmad said:

I thought the DVA saying "This is the Liverpool Street train" instead of "This is a Liverpool Street train" was somehow weird. Maybe just because I'm used to the other.

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I've always found the LO 378s saying "the London Overground service..." or whatever similarly odd

The 345s are totally unsuitable for the type of work they will be used on. They feel like the sort of trains that should be found on short distance metro services (like the Victoria Line) rather than long distance National Rail services from Reading to Shenfield etc. The lack of much luggage space is also a failure considering they will be used to and from Heathrow Airport soon.

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Well try riding one through central London in the morning peak in a couple of years' time and then see how unsuitable they are for, er, metro services, which is what they will be working.

As has already been pointed out, the numbers of passengers using them on cross-London journeys - other than from the east to Heathrow - are unlikely to be significant - even the planners think that, hence the large number of services from the east that will terminate at Paddington.

If you want to do Shenfield-Reading, you would use Anglia and GWR fasts, with Crossrail in between, unless you really like trundling all-stops through East and West London that much.

The lack of plug sockets is another big mistake. Nowadays plug sockets are a big necessity on all trains. I would say plug sockets are more important than WIFI on trains. Especially as these are National Rail trains being used for long distances.

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Passengers on Crossrail will not be travelling long distances - it's a whole 20 miles to Shenfield and 40 miles to Reading from central London - in both cases there will be fast mainline services on parallel tracks from the outer termini (and Maidenhead) and easy interchange with Crossrail at Paddington and Liverpool Street.

I have no idea what you expect people to be plugging in on short commutes, where the ability to get a decent signal for a mobile or tablet is likely to be of far more interest to far more people than whether they can plug in something like a laptop on a crowded train. Never mind the potential safety risks posed by power leads.

The final (and perhaps the biggest failure) is not building these as 12 coach trains. I know they will eventually be extended to 9 coaches but that still wont be enough. Within a few years of Crossrail opening it will be far too overcrowded. So 12 coach 345s should of been built. Less than 12 coaches wont be enough.

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They can't even fit a nine-coach formation into Liverpool Street until platforms are extended - hence the interim seven car formations - how do you think they would be able to accommodate a 12-car train there? Some peak services will continue to use Liverpool Street after the tunnel opens - should they keep a micro-fleet of nine-car sets to use for a few hours each day on those trains?

Or maybe they could just have a common fleet of nine-car go-anywhere trains instead and then see how demand develops before committing to extra capacity - a full and standing nine-car 345 is designed to shift 1,500 people in nine-car formation, with 24tph each way in the tunnel during the peaks, so they can hardly be accused of starting from a low base.

jimm said:

They can't even fit a nine-coach formation into Liverpool Street until platforms are extended - hence the interim seven car formations - how do you think they would be able to accommodate a 12-car train there? Some peak services will continue to use Liverpool Street after the tunnel opens - should they keep a micro-fleet of nine-car sets to use for a few hours each day on those trains

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I thought that was actually the plan?
Or does anyone have info on potential high level platform extensions at Liverpool Street (high level)?

I'm sure I read something somewhere, but I might be thinking of Kings Cross.

jimm said:

Well try riding one through central London in the morning peak in a couple of years' time and then see how unsuitable they are for, er, metro services, which is what they will be working.

As has already been pointed out, the numbers of passengers using them on cross-London journeys - other than from the east to Heathrow - are unlikely to be significant - even the planners think that, hence the large number of services from the east that will terminate at Paddington.

If you want to do Shenfield-Reading, you would use Anglia and GWR fasts, with Crossrail in between, unless you really like trundling all-stops through East and West London that much.



Passengers on Crossrail will not be travelling long distances - it's a whole 20 miles to Shenfield and 40 miles to Reading from central London - in both cases there will be fast mainline services on parallel tracks from the outer termini (and Maidenhead) and easy interchange with Crossrail at Paddington and Liverpool Street.

I have no idea what you expect people to be plugging in on short commutes, where the ability to get a decent signal for a mobile or tablet is likely to be of far more interest to far more people than whether they can plug in something like a laptop on a crowded train. Never mind the potential safety risks posed by power leads.



They can't even fit a nine-coach formation into Liverpool Street until platforms are extended - hence the interim seven car formations - how do you think they would be able to accommodate a 12-car train there? Some peak services will continue to use Liverpool Street after the tunnel opens - should they keep a micro-fleet of nine-car sets to use for a few hours each day on those trains?

Or maybe they could just have a common fleet of nine-car go-anywhere trains instead and then see how demand develops before committing to extra capacity - a full and standing nine-car 345 is designed to shift 1,500 people in nine-car formation, with 24tph each way in the tunnel during the peaks, so they can hardly be accused of starting from a low base.

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An 11 car 345 would be same length as a 12.5car 315 combination i suspect the original commenter doesn't realise the cars are 22+m long.
A 7car 345 ish the same lenght as an 8 car 315 to solve the Liverpool Street platform issue for the timebeing.

ijmad said:

I thought that was actually the plan?
Or does anyone have info on potential high level platform extensions at Liverpool Street (high level)?

I'm sure I read something somewhere, but I might be thinking of Kings Cross.

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Gets sorted in May + June 2019

absolutelymilk said:

Is there likely to be a big timetable change in December or May to take advantage of the superior acceleration of the 345s?

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Nothing major until May 2019. Until then half the peak service will be 315s so it wouldn't be possible anyway.

hwl said:

Gets sorted in May + June 2019

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Fair enough, thanks! It's rather a difficult one to Google for without finding millions of links about Crossrail and other associated platform extension works!

ijmad said:

There'll only be 11 of them by the end of the year apparently. Most services will still be 315s.

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That's half. 11 345s will displace 22 of the 44 315s, so assuming the rest of the introduction goes to plan, that will mean your odds are 50/50 of getting a 345 by the end of the year. In all honesty, given the benefits I can see myself taking the first 345 I can get and if it's a Gidea Park stopper, changing there. They really are a big step up from the 315s in my opinion.

A summary of my thoughts, now having ridden one:

- Transverse seating is comfortable, didn't try the longitudinal ones, but no doubt will in future. They are exactly as others have reported, firm but less so than the likes of the 387 and 700, they feel like the sort of seat you'd expect on a TfL service, based on how firm tube seating is. Interestingly the material has a very high friction coefficient, it's near-impossible to slide on them, which isn't something I've noticed with other firm seats.

- A/C is set warmer than that on the S-stock, about right for a room. I was sweating when I first boarded from having sat out in the sunshine at Brentwood for half an hour waiting for this particular service, and by the time I reached Goodmayes I was comfortable. However, for the people that board these units in rush hour just to use the core section, I'm not sure the temperature is set quite low enough, maybe one more degree would be better. That being said, if they did that, for those boarding at, e.g. Tottenham Court Road, by the time they'd reached Harold Wood on a largely empty train, it'd be pretty chilly, which I think lots of 700 users have complained about. In practice, it's probably about right. The compressor was not operating anywhere near all of the time to keep the train at this temperature with only a light loading of 150-200 passengers or so, so i imagine it can cope with a full train well enough. On that note, the ventilation system is a little noisy - noisier than S-stock and Electrostars, a little quieter than the Desiro UK, but the actual A/C unit is quite loud both in terms of the hiss of it operating, and the clunk when it engages. It's fine, as I'd much rather have a slightly noisy A/C than a very noisy open window, but other modern EMUs are definitely quieter in that regard, the 700s included (the Desiro UK of course, excluded).

- Acceleration is stunning, out-accelerating the 92 stock leaving Stratford station down the gradient to Mile End was comical, as that's definitely one of the speedier parts of the tube. Because of how much quieter the units are inside, you don't really get a sense of speed, so when the train has reached the requisite speed for the next station after the rear of the unit barely having left the platform, you assume at first that it's running at reduced speed, but it isn't, you just don't realise how quickly you've got up to speed. The comparative silence when scooting along the 70mph section down to Bethnal Green was great.

- The PIS needs a little work, the announcements themselves are actually fine, I think they work well, but there's definitely some lag in the audio system, it does occasionally stutter, particularly when reading out the 'Stratford' part of 'via Stratford' (which, by the way, is an unnecessary designation, as even when peak services are split between Liverpool Street high-level and the Crossrail tunnels to Whitechapel, both would still be via Stratford!). Also, as previously mentioned, the Moorgate interchange being announced prematurely.

- The plug doors do an excellent job of avoiding the bang when other units pass at speed, the open/close time is fine, the sounder noise itself is very good, not as ear-piercing as the sounders fitted to the 700s or being retrofitted to older units. That said, the 345 continues Bombardier's tradition of repeating the door open sound far longer than is necessary. Especially now it's a bi-tonal noise, 10-12 repetitions wears a bit thin after a long journey. Realistically 5 would suffice for doors being released, and three when the doors are opened manually, this is something the 700s got right.
One thing I did notice happen a few times was the doors sensed obstructions that weren't there and regularly halted before fully closing for a couple of seconds, then continuing. It didn't cause any delays, and the doors didn't have to be re-released to fix this, but I imagine it's symptomatic of what could potentially be a larger problem once the units start operating crush-loaded peak services.

- Interior ambience is good, I do personally like the colour scheme though I know it's subjective, apart from the ventilation noise the units are very quiet, similar to a Desiro UK in this regard, with very muted external sounds and a very quiet traction package, not just the motors but also the IGBT drive, which is a big leap forward as every other contemporary EMU still seems very noisy in this regard, including 700s, 800s, 385s - the CAF and Stadler units yet to be seen of course.

- Driver PA system needs work, there was terrible 50Hz interference over his microphone on my journey and it was pretty much impossible to hear what he said, I had to make a best guess, which given the train was stationary, is poor, that does need to be fixed.

As a whole I very much like the trains and am looking forward to being able to use them on a regular basis. A few quirks to resolve, but two successful return journeys without any delays on the debut outings is a fine accomplishment, well done to all involved.