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Class 345 progress

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ijmad

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You know, a thought that struck me is that given how similar the eventual product has turned out to be, did TfL ever consider just procuring more 'S' stock for Crossrail? S11 anyone?
Obviously need pantographs instead of 4-rail shoe gear but plenty of National Rail stocks have versions with both on them.
What else is really fundamentally different between them, now we've seen the result?
 
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samuelmorris

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There's not that much similarity - the Movia product is geared for, as far as I know, 62mph max, or at the very most 75, certainly not the 90 it needs to operate on the Great Western side of Crossrail - there's no convenient space for a pantograph or transformers inside the S stock either, like there is on DC powered mainline multiple units. Also bear in mind they are 130m units tops, not 200m (with scope for longer still) like the Class 345. Honestly, if you modified all the things on an S-stock that are necessary to achieve the spec that Crossrail requires, a Class 345 is pretty much what you end up with regardless.

The 345 may very well be a 'tailored for TfL' solution but it's adapted from the Aventra product line which is marketed at rolling stock operators all over, and has evidently been successful as two non-TfL TOCs in the UK have already signed very large orders, both higher in vehicle count than the order for Crossrail. There was no reason for Bombardier to make major modifications to one of its products when an entirely different product line they offer is so much better suited to the task.
 
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ijmad

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There's not that much similarity - the Movia product is geared for, as far as I know, 62mph max, or at the very most 75, certainly not the 90 it needs to operate on the Great Western side of Crossrail - there's no convenient space for a pantograph or transformers inside the S stock either, like there is on DC powered mainline multiple units. Also bear in mind they are 130m units tops, not 200m (with scope for longer still) like the Class 345. Honestly, if you modified all the things on an S-stock that are necessary to achieve the spec that Crossrail requires, a Class 345 is pretty much what you end up with regardless.

The 345 may very well be a 'tailored for TfL' solution but it's adapted from the Aventra product line which is marketed at rolling stock operators all over, and has evidently been successful as two non-TfL TOCs in the UK have already signed very large orders, both higher in vehicle count than the order for Crossrail. There was no reason for Bombardier to make major modifications to one of its products when an entirely different product line they offer is so much better suited to the task.

Fair enough. It was just a random musing in my brain, but all your points make total sense.
 

jaig

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Is there likely to be a big timetable change in December or May to take advantage of the superior acceleration of the 345s?
The acceleration of the Class 345 is like no other train, well, maybe the Class 700 is a close contender...

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GB

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This is what is booked to run today

5Z05 -1122 Ilford EMUD - Liverpool Street
2Z06 -1156 Liverpool Street - Shenfield
5Z06 -1241 Shenfield - Shenfield MS
5Z07 -1302 Shenfield MS - Shenfield
2Z07 -1305 Shenfield - Liverpool Street
5Z08 -1357 Liverpool Street - Ilford EMUD
 

simple simon

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The acceleration of the Class 345 is like no other train, well, maybe the Class 700 is a close contender...

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I wish that lacklustre Bombardier's Class 378 Electrostar trains on London Overground were modified to have higher rates acceleration. Timetabled journey durations could be shortened, which would be a 'good thing', especially on longer journeys around London.

Simon
 

swt_passenger

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I wish that lacklustre Bombardier's Class 378 Electrostar trains on London Overground were modified to have higher rates acceleration. Timetabled journey durations could be shortened, which would be a 'good thing', especially on longer journeys around London.

I doubt very much that it's a train performance issue at all. TfL just prioritise reliability and standard all day frequencies above out and out speed.
 

simple simon

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I doubt very much that it's a train performance issue at all. TfL just prioritise reliability and standard all day frequencies above out and out speed.

More likely its a Network Rail issue, as they control the tracks.

Travelling on Overground trains can be like trying to watch paint dry... life in the slow lane! For me journeys on the Overground usually begin or end on the Central Line, where the trains accelerate and travel much more rapidly.

Since both will be using Aventra trains it will be interesting to compare acceleration between the Crossrail Class 345 and London Overground Class 710 variants.

Simon
 

JW16

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Regarding the onboard information screens, why are all stations shown with the circle interchange symbol? It's confusing to tourists and unfamiliar travellers to see both Stratford and Maryland shown with an interchange symbol when the latter has none. Also, "Train to Liverpool Street via Stratford" - why add that latter pointless detail?
 

class387

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Regarding the onboard information screens, why are all stations shown with the circle interchange symbol? It's confusing to tourists and unfamiliar travellers to see both Stratford and Maryland shown with an interchange symbol when the latter has none. Also, "Train to Liverpool Street via Stratford" - why add that latter pointless detail?

I presume it is programmed to show via points in Central London when the full line opens. At the moment, something like "via Ilford" would be better to distinguish from the GA fasts.
 

MP33

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Travelling on Greater Anglia alongside the Tfl services I am yet to see one of these trains. I am thinking that they are the Emperors New Clothes and what can be seen in Ilford Depot are plywood cut outs.

Somebody who lives in Harold Wood said he saw one in platform 18 at Liverpool Street, but not that closely.
 

LeeLivery

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To me they sound much like the A set Waratah trains in Sydney. The only thing I don't like is the PIS. There is simple and then theres too simple. Not even the tube lines are that simple. Like with other recent TfL announcements updates it just sounds odd.

I would rather

"This is Chadwell Heath, this train for is Shenfield, the next station is Romford."
"The next station is Romford. Change for London Overground and National Rail services"

Probably would take just as long to say considering the long pauses currently. I always liked how our rail announcements never sounded computerised, but since the ELL core opening we've been going backwards there.

Furthermore saying "London Overground Lines" seems strange at stations with only one LO route serving (Romford and Stratford).

I don't really see the point of the line diagram on the screens either. Would of just been better to scroll all the stations instead of only showing the next three then the last stop. For the trains not calling at all stations surly the current way can't work.

As for saying they want it to feel like the RER and not NR (which is just confusing for railcards), doesn't the RER have SNCF logos everywhere? I don't see why they, Merseyside and Glasgow can cope with two logos, but we can't :roll:
 

47802

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To me they sound much like the A set Waratah trains in Sydney. The only thing I don't like is the PIS. There is simple and then theres too simple. Not even the tube lines are that simple. Like with other recent TfL announcements updates it just sounds odd.

I would rather

"This is Chadwell Heath, this train for is Shenfield, the next station is Romford."
"The next station is Romford. Change for London Overground and National Rail services"

Probably would take just as long to say considering the long pauses currently. I always liked how our rail announcements never sounded computerised, but since the ELL core opening we've been going backwards there.

Furthermore saying "London Overground Lines" seems strange at stations with only one LO route serving (Romford and Stratford).

I don't really see the point of the line diagram on the screens either. Would of just been better to scroll all the stations instead of only showing the next three then the last stop. For the trains not calling at all stations surly the current way can't work.

As for saying they want it to feel like the RER and not NR (which is just confusing for railcards), doesn't the RER have SNCF logos everywhere? I don't see why they, Merseyside and Glasgow can cope with two logos, but we can't :roll:

Simple PIS is good in my book in fact the less PIS and general Verbal Diarrhea the better.
 

Uzair

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Simple PIS is good in my book in fact the less PIS and general Verbal Diarrhea the better.

As LeeLivery said, there is simple and there is too simple. The PIS on the 345 is too simple. EdinburghTrain mentioned the sub-par English with these announcements. I completely agree.

Changing the announcements to "The next station is Romford" from "Next station, Romford" (so adding two words) does not count as "Verbal Diarrhea".
 
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47802

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As LeeLivery said, there is simple and there is too simple. The PIS on the 345 is too simple. EdinburghTrain mentioned the sub-par English with these announcements. I completely agree.

Changing the announcements to "The next station is Romford" from "Next station, Romford" (so adding two words) does not count as "Verbal Diarrhea".

I see nothing wrong with "Next Station Romford" perfectly fine in my view. If was up to me it would just be "Romford", PIS is "Verbal Diarrhea", ok we have to have it from a disability viewpoint but "Next Station Romford" is Straight to point don't need any more in my view.

It actually the one positive of living in the North most Northern Trains don't have any PIS yet , although there is an excessive amount of "Verbal Diarrhea" from some guards
 
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JW16

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I don't necessarily have a problem with the voiceover announcements but the visual information needs improving. Giving all stations the circle interchange symbol, not showing all stops (just the next 3 and final), etc.
 

rebmcr

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Trying to distance the service's perception from National Rail is very disingenuous when the status page takes every opportunity to blame delays on Network Rail.
 

dm1

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Having not travelled on the 345 I can't comment directly, but from videos I've seen the "Next Station: XXX" seems perfectly adequate (although the absence of the colon on the visual display does annoy me from a grammar point of view). It's the "This is the train to XXX" rather than the usual "This train is to XXX" or "This train is for XXX" that irritates me more, because it is more verbose but arguably less clear - 'THE train' implies that it is the only train rather than being one of many.

Otherwise it seems to compare well to many transport systems around Europe, which whilst varying in quality have tended to avoid extremely long or continuous announcements where possible.

It also remains to be seen how practical it is in practice to update the PIS - which seems to often be a problem (take the limited number of destinations/line combinations possible on the S Stock for example). One would hope that in 2017 they would use computer systems that are a little more flexible and easy to update. Perhaps one day we'll see a time where operators can change the announcements based on one-time engineering works etc.
 
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I see nothing wrong with "Next Station Romford" perfectly fine in my view. If was up to me it would just be "Romford", PIS is "Verbal Diarrhea", ok we have to have it from a disability viewpoint but "Next Station Romford" is Straight to point don't need any more in my view.

It actually the one positive of living in the North most Northern Trains don't have any PIS yet , although there is an excessive amount of "Verbal Diarrhea" from some guards

To go even simpler (from the already too simple and ungrammatical form) would mean it'd lose any benefit.

The announcements are presumably for people who:
  • are unfamiliar with the system/route
  • have fallen asleep
  • require extra assistance (e.g. blind?)

Just having a voice randomly shout out place names or other information without context would do no help for those that really need it.

Seems like a much better system would be to say:
"This is the train for X, the next stop is Y" when leaving a station.
"This train is now approaching Z, exit for interchanges with A, B & C"

Could be displayed in major foreign languages on screens if that would be feasible.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It actually the one positive of living in the North most Northern Trains don't have any PIS yet , although there is an excessive amount of "Verbal Diarrhoea" from some guards

You evidently haven't been on a Northern 319 yet.
The worst PIS announcements on the network.
 

LeeLivery

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Simple PIS is good in my book in fact the less PIS and general Verbal Diarrhea the better.

I don't see what is diarrhoea about giving a constructed sentence with punctuation. I'm not asking for the OTT Southern style nonsense, just a few simple sentences which anyone can understand.
 

LeeLivery

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Trying to distance the service's perception from National Rail is very disingenuous when the status page takes every opportunity to blame delays on Network Rail.

LO are very quick to blame but their new announcements don't even apologise for cancellations
 

LeeLivery

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As LeeLivery said, there is simple and there is too simple. The PIS on the 345 is too simple. EdinburghTrain mentioned the sub-par English with these announcements. I completely agree.

Changing the announcements to "The next station is Romford" from "Next station, Romford" (so adding two words) does not count as "Verbal Diarrhea".

Exactly. For me verbal diarrhoea is "This train is the Southern service to London Bridge. We are now approaching Sydenham". Or even more annoying and obvious: "Please ensure you have a valid ticket or oyster card for your journey, if you do not, you may be liable for a penalty fare, thank you". Guess where you hear that announcement all the time...
 
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dm1

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Not as bad as Chiltern's recently added "Please remember to touch out on the card readers before leaving the station" at EVERY station in the Oyster zone.

I can understand why they do it (if people don't touch out they don't get the money from TfL for the journey) but it doesn't make them any less irritating and useless (especially for commuters) - and they seem to have managed without them for the last 10 years...
 
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