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Trainline- journey to printer paid for but required to buy a separate ticket

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Clip

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Im not sure if you meant Travelline or The Trainline but it is fair to say that the OP ignored everything they were told by the people on the ground and DID board a train without a valid ticket and REFUSED the quick PF which they couldve argued over afterwards.

People really need to pay attention to things and if the app says they cant pick it up at their chosen station and station staff say the MUST buy a ticket to travel to pick up their purchase then that is what they MUST pay attention to and this way they wouldnt find them selves on this forum trying to get it sorted out.
 

Tetchytyke

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could very easily be read as "as your origin station doesn't have ticket collection facilities you can board there and pick up your tickets at xxxxx"

Perhaps it could. I don't agree, but I can see the alternative viewpoint.

However, in this case, the OP was told by station staff at the station that this interpretation was incorrect, that he would need to buy a new ticket to Lime Street, and that if he didn't he would be liable for a Penalty Fare.

This wasn't the answer he wanted so he ignored it, and was then issued a Penalty Fare, which he did not pay.

lejog said:
This, its nothing to do with them is (a) frankly a pathetic excuse and (b) highly likely outwith contract law.

The information is clear that a) you need a ticket before boarding a train and b) you cannot collect said ticket at that station. There are a lot of stations where you cannot collect tickets, Merseyrail is not alone in this.

Still waiting for evidence of "fabrication" btw.

Here are the Trainline T&Cs:

Collecting tickets at the station: For many bookings we allow you to collect tickets from a range of stations. You must allow sufficient time to collect your tickets before boarding the train. You must have your ticket collection reference, and (unless stated otherwise) the credit/debit card used to make the purchase as identification. You should note any special collection instructions given during the booking process, for example the station opening hours.

If you are unable to collect your tickets (for example due to the ticket machine(s) being out of service) then you should contact the station staff for further assistance. If there are no staff at the station, you should board your booked train, and make yourself known to the on-train staff at the earliest possible opportunity
 

Gareth Marston

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Perhaps it could. I don't agree, but I can see the alternative viewpoint.

However, in this case, the OP was told by station staff at the station that this interpretation was incorrect, that he would need to buy a new ticket to Lime Street, and that if he didn't he would be liable for a Penalty Fare.

This wasn't the answer he wanted so he ignored it, and was then issued a Penalty Fare, which he did not pay.



The information is clear that a) you need a ticket before boarding a train and b) you cannot collect said ticket at that station. There are a lot of stations where you cannot collect tickets, Merseyrail is not alone in this.

Still waiting for evidence of "fabrication" btw.

Here are the Trainline T&Cs:

Boils down to somebody making an assumption when they tapped something on a mobile phone app and not reading what they actually were purchasing.
 

lejog

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What is this "blatant fabrication of evidence "?

That "you were told on the app you needed to collect your ticket before travel"

Having just brought up the screen NajaB shows from the Traveline app, I can confirm that the obscured options at the bottom are payment options, so there is nothing whatsoever on the app to tell you need to collect the ticket before travel. Indeed there are no on-screen alternatives to collect from station and to continue with payment, even if you clearly have no time to collect from another station.

But it has been admitted that that accusation was untrue. An email adding conditions after payment is a clear breach of consumer law.
 

Tetchytyke

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Boils down to somebody making an assumption when they tapped something on a mobile phone app and not reading what they actually were purchasing.

Indeed.

And the rest of the wibble is just blaming "the industry" for that mistaken assumption.

Trainline are clear that you can't collect the ticket at that station. It is also clear that you need a ticket to travel. Perhaps they could be more clear that a booking reference is not a ticket. Other ticket vendors are more clear on that.

The appropriate course of action is, of course, to do as you're told and complain about it to Trainline later, given we're talking a couple of quid here.

lejog said:
An email adding conditions after payment is a clear breach of consumer law.

The paragraph I quoted is in the Trainline T&Cs you agree to when purchasing a ticket. If you don't read them that's your lookout.
 
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island

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To return to the OP, the offence in question is clearly made out and you are very likely to be found guilty. It is worth remembering that the fare due for your journey to Liverpool Lime Street became £20 (the Penalty Fare) when you chose to board a train without a ticket, and you then chose not to pay this fare, and everything points to you intending not to pay it.

You now need to wind your neck in several notches, and either get a good solicitor, or promptly pay the £75, unless you fancy a criminal record, a fine of up to £1,000 plus costs and victim surcharge, and potentially being named as a fare evader in your local paper.
 

Tetchytyke

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That "you were told on the app you needed to collect your ticket before travel"

Having just brought up the screen NajaB shows from the Traveline app, I can confirm that the obscured options at the bottom are payment options, so there is nothing whatsoever on the app to tell you need to collect the ticket before travel.

When you agree to purchase the ticket, you are agreeing to be bound by Trainline T&Cs and the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

If you choose not to read these documents, then that is your problem. The NRCoT defines what a ticket is. The NRCoT also states exactly what will happen if you are unable to present a ticket for inspection.

It is clear that a booking reference is NOT a ticket. It is also clear that you need a ticket to travel.

To get back to the point, I do not see what benefit this is to the OP. The rules are clear. The OP was told the rules at the origin station, and again at Liverpool Lime Street. All I can see is that the OP did not agree with the rules. As island says, the best advice here is for the OP to wind their neck in. If they had done that before it would have cost them a fiver. Now it will cost them more, £70 more as a minimum. Trying to argue that the OP did not need a ticket, or that the booking reference counted as a ticket, is only going to make the matter more expensive for them.
 
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Gareth Marston

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This one just got to leave the train well short of his destination, no Penalty Fares here.


Subject: Fare Evasion Welshpool



Slim male in grey trackie bottoms with bag. No money or ticket claiming he has a code that allows him travel. Trying to reach Aberystwyth. Removed from 1J25 1827 Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth.
 

takno

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I'm also a little puzzled as to how the OP ended up in this situation. If you attempt to use TheTrainline app to buy a ticket for which: (a) there is no eTicket option; and (b) starts at a station where you can't collect the ticket you get the warning in the attached screen capture.

To be fair if I didn't know the rules I'd read that as meaning that you could pick up the ticket at the first station en-route with a machine. It certainly doesn't say "before travelling" as part of the warning, and since picking up before travel for a next-day journey is near-as-dammit impossible, it probably should highlight it better.
 

najaB

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To be fair if I didn't know the rules I'd read that as meaning that you could pick up the ticket at the first station en-route with a machine.
That's not a completely unreasonable assumption. However, in this case the OP was told - in no uncertain terms - that he would need to pay for the ticket to Liverpool Lime Street. They can't claim that they continued to be unclear as to the correct course of action.
 

lejog

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When you agree to purchase the ticket, you are agreeing to be bound by Trainline T&Cs and the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

If you choose not to read these documents, then that is your problem. The NRCoT defines what a ticket is. The NRCoT also states exactly what will happen if you are unable to present a ticket for inspection.

It is clear that a booking reference is NOT a ticket. It is also clear that you need a ticket to travel.

To get back to the point, I do not see what benefit this is to the OP. The rules are clear. The OP was told the rules at the origin station, and again at Liverpool Lime Street. All I can see is that the OP did not agree with the rules. As island says, the best advice here is for the OP to wind their neck in. If they had done that before it would have cost them a fiver. Now it will cost them more, £70 more as a minimum. Trying to argue that the OP did not need a ticket, or that the booking reference counted as a ticket, is only going to make the matter more expensive for them.

Sorry for not replying sooner, I thought you had accepted you were incorrect in post #26, I didn't realise you would still be posting. The evidence you posted there was based on a different piece of software entirely and seemed to consist of an email received after payment, which would (a) be totally unenforceable in law and (b) more importantly totally irrelevant to your assertion to the OP:

You were told on the app you needed to collect your ticket before travel, and that you cannot do this at a Merseyrail station. You ignored this.

Lets see what the Trainline app screen actually says in the circumstances of the OP (I'm afraid screenshots from a phone are beyond my abilities)

1) Defines the ticket type, the validity and price
2) "How to get your ticket". Only one option - "Collect from station" along with a message "<Departure station> does not have a ticket machine, you can collect them (sic) from another station. As NajaB's screenshot shows there is small info symbol, which brings up a help screen to say that "you ticket will be ready for collection at over 1000 stations immediately", then a pictorial guide as to use a ticket machine.
3) A total to pay figure followed by two Pay buttons - pay by card or by Paypal.
4) A statement that by booking the ticket you accept Trainline ts and cs and the NRCOT.

1) is fine, sets the scope and price of the contract
2) is not fine, permission to pick up the ticket from another station is given without any definition of the time that the ticket is to be collected. A simple addition of two words "before travel" would remove ambiguity. But they are not there, so it would seem perfectly reasonable for a passenger from a Merseyrail station to further afield to think I'm going via Lime St, I'll just pick up the tickets there.
3 and 4) the ordering of these are problematic. I admit not being up to date with recent case law in this area, but we certainly had legal opinion where I worked a couple of years back that placing small print after a Pay button on an app was as useful as a chocolate teapot, you can't impose conditions after payment is made (just a much use in fact as sending an email after payment).

Absolutely nowhere had you presented any evidence that the OP was told on the app to collect the ticket before travel. Neither the payment screen or the help screen specify "before travel".

Re your contributions since post #26, apart from the technicality of the reference to ts and cs and the NRCoT being outside the formation of the contract, I'm not sure how much value they add, given what s plainly stated in the "How to get your ticket" section of the app. You have a different dictionary from me if yours includes in the definition of assistance a demand for payment. Yes the NRCoT says you must have a ticket to travel, but its a two-way contract, it does so within the context of rail industry responsibilities to issue a ticket.
 

MichaelAMW

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I can see how you reached that conclusion, however it is wrong for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, a potential ticket is not a ticket. The OP had paid for a journey but had not yet obtained their authority to travel. Without authority - in the form of a ticket or permission from an authorised person - they are treated as having not paid. So it's necessary to limit our consideration to a ticketless passenger at [name of station] who wanted to travel to Liverpool Lime Street.

Secondly, intent is inferred from actions. The OP was told that they needed to pay for the journey to Liverpool Lime Street. With respect to that journey only, they refused to pay and boarded after having been specifically told not to. This meets the necessary criteria for a RoRA prosecution as they travelled without previously paying their fare and it's reasonable to assume that having refused to pay their fare once, that they had no intent to pay it at all.

I must say I find it hard to see that this is definitely true. I don't disagree with the thread in general but, as Harpers Tate has said, the OP has paid his fare for the journey. Yes, he didn't have a ticket but that is covered by either a byelaw or by the RoRA where it requires ticket or fare or name; he's not being prosecuted for that. Yes, intent is inferred from actions and his action is have previously paid his fare by buying a ticket, even if he made a hash of taking notice of how he had to obtain the ticket. Again, you could use a byelaw or S5.1 of the RoRA to get him on that, surely? It may be that they consider the fare he has avoided to be the penalty fare, in which case that may be the way they feel they could secure his conviction.
 

Gareth Marston

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Number one on the list of Enfirecable offences on Merseyrail 's website is entering any train for the purpose of travelling without a valid ticket. What do people "not get" about that? It's clear and not open to interpretation. The OP was in addition warned by staff at his originating station by his own admission. There's notices up all over the place on Merseyrail. Also he doesn't seem to be a novice to using Merseyrail...........

The OP just made assumptions about his online purchase without reading/checking what he was purchasing. The old saying is "look before you leap" and highly appropriate here. Ironically he probably would have saved time and money by buying his ticket on the day at his originating station instead of using the Internet and not ended up in this situation. I'm no fan of Internet purchasing for rail tickets mainly because people get conned by the like of Trainline and their charges and don't realise that they pay a premium to purchase online also the TOD system relies on the individual to make the right choices and understand what there doing.
 

cjmillsnun

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Possibly I may be over-simplifying here. But the OP describes a prosecution for a specific offence. He does not describe a penalty fare, does not describe an option for out-of-court settlement etc. And he describes how he clearly has not actually committed that specific offence, and can prove it - doesn't he? I'm no legal expert, but from what I see here, if I were a magistrate/judge/etc., and someone were being prosecuted for "Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;……" when the FARE had in fact been paid there is no case to answer. This does not make any reference to a requirement to carry a ticket; merely to have intent to avoid payment - and you can't have intent to avoid payment if you have paid - surely?! I'd dismiss it and award costs against the TOC for being bloody awkward!

Not being funny.

I buy a ticket online and select TOD. I get a booking reference. The station doesn't have TOD collection facilities... So far, that's the OP's story.

There is nothing to prove to Merseyrail that someone else hasn't collected the ticket and is using it. They therefore advise that a ticket must be purchased. Customer refuses and is PF'd... Customer refuses to pay PF and is now being summonsed for RoRA.

Now the app (however clear or not some might think it is, says
by booking the ticket you accept Trainline ts and cs and the NRCOT.

So we can look at NRCOT...
4.1 Your Ticket is evidence of your entitlement to travel on the National Rail Network, as allowed by the type of Ticket you have purchased. It is your responsibility to keep it safe and it should be looked after with care.
6. You must have a valid Ticket to travel

slam dunk
 
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takno

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Not being funny.

I buy a ticket online and select TOD. I get a booking reference. The station doesn't have TOD collection facilities... So far, that's the OP's story.

There is nothing to prove to Merseyrail that someone else hasn't collected the ticket and is using it. They therefore advise that a ticket must be purchased. Customer refuses and is PF'd... Customer refuses to pay PF and is now being summonsed for RoRA.

Now the app (however clear or not some might think it is, says
by booking the ticket you accept Trainline ts and cs and the NRCOT.

So we can look at NRCOT...


slam dunk

Slam dunk is not one of the basic tenets of English law. If you really wanted to push the point you'd be perfectly in your rights to point out the the NRCoTs are extremely long, and no reasonable consumer could have been expected to read them before travel. Quoting out of them therefore doesn't automatically win you a case. It's not something I'd be inclined to pursue since it's high risk and very little benefit, but you could certainly base a defence on what you were on the face of it told on buying a ticket from an authorised agent.
 

Harpers Tate

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The important point I was trying to make is specifically the charge being made against the OP. Not about any parallel bylaw, rule, policy, condition, or otherwise. The specific charge: "Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;……". And it doesn't look to me like he is guilty of that specific charge. He has paid his fare.
 

najaB

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If you really wanted to push the point you'd be perfectly in your rights to point out the the NRCoTs are extremely long, and no reasonable consumer could have been expected to read them before travel.
Wait a second... So if a contract is long I don't have to abide by its terms?! Why didn't someone tell me that???
 

Tetchytyke

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If you really wanted to push the point you'd be perfectly in your rights to point out the the NRCoTs are extremely long, and no reasonable consumer could have been expected to read them before travel.

So if something is "long" or "complicated" we don't have to read it, and if we don't read it we don't have to abide by it?

Caselaw is that particularly onerous terms should be highlighted. Having to have a ticket to get on a train is not a particularly onerous term. It is pretty much self-explanatory: if you didn't need a ticket, and the booking reference was sufficient, then they wouldn't bother making you have a ticket.

The NRCoT tells you what a ticket is, and that you must have one. So far so sensible.

If the OP had been stopped without seeing any staff (e.g. it was an unstaffed station) then I'd have some sympathy. But they were told in no uncertain terms what they had to do. They disagreed and these are the consequences.

I don't see how four pages of arguing about whether the Trainline is crap or not (it is) changed anything. Perhaps it should be clearer, other vendors are more clear. But the Trainline's own T&Cs say that if you cannot obtain your ticket at the station through ToD you speak to station staff who will tell you what to do. They did, the OP didn't like it, the OP huffed and puffed and flounced. These are the consequences of the temper tantrum.

Slam dunk indeed.
 
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talltim

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I agree that the OP hasn't got a leg to stand on, not because of what he did or didn't do with the app, but because of traveling after speaking to the staff at the station.

However he does have a case against the Trainline, if the T&Cs are only presented after payment then they are null, even if he did read them
 

najaB

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However he does have a case against the Trainline, if the T&Cs are only presented after payment then they are null, even if he did read them
Nope. Link is presented before payment is taken (see screenshot).
 

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Clip

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Slam dunk is not one of the basic tenets of English law. If you really wanted to push the point you'd be perfectly in your rights to point out the the NRCoTs are extremely long, and no reasonable consumer could have been expected to read them before travel. Quoting out of them therefore doesn't automatically win you a case. It's not something I'd be inclined to pursue since it's high risk and very little benefit, but you could certainly base a defence on what you were on the face of it told on buying a ticket from an authorised agent.




Rubbish.

And its nto just the NCOT that are long - I wonder - have you read everything in your mortgage agreement or insurance package? What about any EULA that you have agreed to when using your phone or any software packages that you use? Id be surprised if you had and its exactly the same situation here.
 

35B

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I'd say that is borderline. The terms are significantly less visible than the instruction to pay, and below it on screen.

That compares very poorly to the Virgin East Coast website, which requires the user to check a box acknowledging the NRCoT before the "pay" button is activated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

andykn

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So if something is "long" or "complicated" we don't have to read it, and if we don't read it we don't have to abide by it?

Caselaw is that particularly onerous terms should be highlighted. Having to have a ticket to get on a train is not a particularly onerous term.
It is if you're ordered the ticket but can't collect it at the station the journey starts from.
 

MarlowDonkey

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It is if you're ordered the ticket but can't collect it at the station the journey starts from.

It's a weakness in the whole system. I've managed to evade the problem by ordering far enough in advance to get the tickets posted or by being able to collect tickets elsewhere on a previous journey. In the absence of these, you need a special trip, or as suggested on this thread, pay twice for part of the journey.
 

LowLevel

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It's an interesting position from Merseyrail from a customer service perspective. Not providing the facilities when you're part of the national rail network to use a highly publicised and advertised method of payment and collection is unfortunate.

My own TOC has the same issue at many unmanned stations but takes the alternative view that travel to an interchange if appropriate or destination if not is permissible with a reference number as it is it's own decision not to provide a TVM or booking office. There is publicity posted to this effect at appropriate station and guards and revenue protection are briefed.

I'm not arguing the point about them being able to take this stance, but being a part of the national network I find it counter intuitive.
 

Gareth Marston

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It's a weakness in the whole system. I've managed to evade the problem by ordering far enough in advance to get the tickets posted or by being able to collect tickets elsewhere on a previous journey. In the absence of these, you need a special trip, or as suggested on this thread, pay twice for part of the journey.

People tend to shun the post option because it costs. I suspect a lot of people use the likes of Trainline and TOD because that's how they perceive you buy rail tickets, in advance on the internet not realizing that the railway is still basically a walk on one. Were in a rural area and not having a TVM here we issue TOD's and see what folk are buying - people can come in from quite some distance (15 miles away is not uncommon) to collect Anytime Day Returns a couple of days before they travel and have paid the extras the 3rd party retailers like to add. We do try to educate them! After all if some people think you have to buy Anytime Day Returns on the internet in advance and come and collect them how many more decide not to bother as its too complicated?
 

Puffing Devil

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And here we go again......

Question fully resolved by post 9 or 10. Then 40+ posts on the T+Cs and mechanics of no use to the OP.
 
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