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Northern bods at it as ever...

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BurtonM

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I wouldn't be one to post a thread in the D&P section, especially one about Northern, but needs must...

I should preface this further: we'd all do better in retrospect.

Today I was travelling from home in Stalybridge to a friend's, his local station being Salford Crescent. Easy enough, that's one train, the 12:46. Out of force of habit (and being an Asperger's scatterbrain) I bought an off-peak return to Manchester (Central Zone), with a 16-25 Railcard for £3.30. Having realised my mistake, aboard my train, the guard came through, and asked if I was 'alright for a ticket'. I showed the guard my ticket and asked him for a single from Manchester to the Crescent. He looked through his machine for a moment before telling me 'same price, don't worry about it' or similar words to that effect. (I know at this point I should have asked for an endorsement or zero fare excess, but who thinks of that in the moment, and what would the average passenger do?). The guard wandered off, and left the train at Manchester Victoria to be replaced by another guard I didn't interact with.

Alighting at Salford Crescent, there are barriers and some revenue bods (sigh). For reasons unbeknown to myself as much as anyone else I put my (invalid?) ticket in the barrier (again, retrospect, but what would an average passenger do), obviously 'seek assistance'. "Assistance".
Revenue lady asks to see my railcard, I show her and explain my situation and immediately explain I should in retrospect have asked for an excess or endorsement. After consulting some colleagues she decided to take details, a statement etc. (No false details here don't worry :roll: ) Upon my initial explanation she didn't seem quite convinced, explains to me how Manchester CTLZ tickets work and such (I'm more than familiar), and I encouraged her to check with the guard on the service I had alighted (of which I might have negleected to mention, whoops?) , but having more clearly explained myself, how I'd got to the Crescent and so on, she admitted that the guard I had asked for a ticket 'shouldn't have done that' ('that' in this case being nothing :roll: ). She realised what I was trying to say (basically asking for an excess? I think she initially interpreted me as trying to buy two separate tickets? not quite sure), and admitted the cost difference could well be zero, to which I questioned if, if that was the case, should it not be a zero fare excess?

The lady was rather surprised/alarmed by this - seems I caught her off guard. She asked me 'how do you know about that, how do you know about zero fare excess? Have you been fined before?' with something of an insistent tone - I said no I hadn't been 'fined' (even the revenue bods call it that!) and (again) that I know how the railways work, I'd heard about it on internet fora, and so on. After this the lady just went back to repeating what she'd already said/generic spiel, I'd hear from them in 4-6 weeks blah blah, and somewhat promptly sent me on my way.

If it comes to it and I do get the letter from Northern, do I have much cause for concern? Provided I explain myself well etc, is it likely I'll have to give them £80 to make it go away? Do the new regime/franchise still work like that?


I'm annoyed at myself for managing to get caught out by this, I really am. In the heat of the moment you just don't think :|
 
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BestWestern

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Well, technically they're right of course, your ticket wasn't valid. I'd hazard a guess they might chance their arm and see if they can squeeze your for their usual 80 quid effort. Strictly speaking you have a defence, as an authorised officer (the Guard), gave you permission to travel, but proving it is as good as impossible. Assuming they decline to accept that version of events, that leaves you in the position that the law would be on their side, and so it might well be best to take the hit and pay up, as protesting might well end up leaving you worse off.
 

Merseysider

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Stalybridge to Deansgate/Manchester Oxford Road/Manchester Piccadilly is valid via Salford Crescent.

See attached screenshots from NRE. I've got you an itinerary on the 1246, which you can reproduce by specifying SYB-MCO via SLD.

That makes it a valid route, and as the ticket allows break of journey, you did nothing wrong.

You must ensure you keep these saved somewhere, and politely tell Northern where to stick it if they come looking for trouble.
 

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Merseysider

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Doublepost as I can only attach one image at a time from my phone
 

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Bletchleyite

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Yet another case of staff trying to be helpful but actually hindering. Though it does seem the OP will get off on a routeing technicality.

When will Northern sort out their policy? If it's zero tolerance, it needs to be a serious disciplinary matter for any Guard or other member of staff not to act strictly, 100% in accordance with policy.

I retain my view that a TVM, ideally two, at every urban station, statutory Penalty Fares, and a complete end to on-board ticket sales, is the only solution. Make it the same as Metrolink. Easy to understand and know where you are.
 

pemma

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The lady was rather surprised/alarmed by this - seems I caught her off guard. She asked me 'how do you know about that, how do you know about zero fare excess? Have you been fined before?' with something of an insistent tone - I said no I hadn't been 'fined' (even the revenue bods call it that!) and (again) that I know how the railways work, I'd heard about it on internet fora, and so on.

Of course that makes no sense as you can't be issued with a zero excess and then 'fined.'
 

BurtonM

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The way I saw it she seemed to think ZFE was some sort of industry secret (an excess is anything but) passengers weren't expected to know about, and she was wondering if I knew about it through previous disputes or dealings with Northern (of which I have none). Seems a bit sneaky (along with the fact she admitted the guard was in the wrong but still proceeded to take a statement - that doesn't seem right in itself).

Thanks for that itinerary, that could potentially be very useful. I thought BoJ wasn't permitted on OUT portions though?
 

BurtonM

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Ah okay, good to know. I'll be sure to make a point of that - the revenue lady assumed overtravelling by default.
 

sheff1

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Well, technically they're right of course, your ticket wasn't valid.I'd hazard a guess they might chance their arm and see if they can squeeze your for their usual 80 quid effort. Strictly speaking you have a defence, as an authorised officer (the Guard), gave you permission to travel, but proving it is as good as impossible. Assuming they decline to accept that version of events, that leaves you in the position that the law would be on their side, and so it might well be best to take the hit and pay up, as protesting might well end up leaving you worse off.

This is incorrect advice - they are wrong and the ticket is valid for break of journey (or finishing short) at Salford Crescent.

The problem was caused because the OP didn't know this and, it would appear, neither did the guard on the first train nor the RPI at the Crescent.

If BurtonM does get a letter, a very simple reply stating that the ticket was valid, and why, is all that should be necessary.
 
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BestWestern

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This is incorrect advice - they are wrong and the ticket is valid for break of journey (or finishing short) at Salford Crescent.

The problem was caused because the OP didn't know this and, it would appear, neither did the guard on the first train nor the RPI at the Crescent.

If BurtonM does get a letter, a very simple reply stating that the ticket was valid, and why, is all that should be necessary.

I see now that this has been established. When I posted, the fact that ticket was in fact valid wasn't known. A good, if unexpected, bit of news for the OP!
 

Paul Kelly

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For what it's worth I don't believe the ticket is valid via Salford Crescent. I think it's a bug in the journey planner that powers National Rail Enquiries. My opinion is that, once you reach Manchester Victoria, you can't use the MANCHESTER CTLZ validity to exit the Manchester Stations group and then re-enter it later.
 

Bletchleyite

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For what it's worth I don't believe the ticket is valid via Salford Crescent. I think it's a bug in the journey planner that powers National Rail Enquiries. My opinion is that, once you reach Manchester Victoria, you can't use the MANCHESTER CTLZ validity to exit the Manchester Stations group and then re-enter it later.

I did kind of wonder that - can you leave a station group to re-enter it? However...

Isn't it valid on the technicality that an intinerary has been generated then?

...I believe a NRE itinerary showing the ticket used at the time of travel is considered to be a definitive statement of validity.
 

tspaul26

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I did kind of wonder that - can you leave a station group to re-enter it?

[DELETED]

Ultimately, my view is that if the TOC tries to push the matter then they are being stupid: even if there is a conviction, any half-decent advocate should be able to make a case for an absolute discharge on the facts presented here.
 
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pemma

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Ultimately, my view is that if the TOC tries to push the matter then they are being stupid: even if there is a conviction, any half-decent advocate should be able to make a case for an absolute discharge on the facts presented here.

I'm sure if Northern did try to prosecute over 0p the local media would be very interested in the story and the negative attention would cause Northern to back down.
 

Francis

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Why don't Revenue Protection concentrate on catching the real frauds and cheats, and leave decent passengers who don't owe a penny extra alone? When the extra liability is zero, it is sheer legalism to start threatening prosecution.
 

yorkie

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Why don't Revenue Protection concentrate on catching the real frauds and cheats, and leave decent passengers who don't owe a penny extra alone? When the extra liability is zero, it is sheer legalism to start threatening prosecution.
Easy pickings.

It's especially hard to go for the type who won't pay and will run off and/or threaten violence.

Someone in a decent job with a clean record is also much more likely to pay their standard £80 settlement.
 

yorkie

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I did kind of wonder that - can you leave a station group to re-enter it?
Other scenarios may differ, but in this case the question is whether or not a ticket with the destination "MANCHESTER CTLZ" expires at the point you leave the Manchester Stations group or not.

A ticket cannot be used beyond the destination, but it is not clear-cut in this case whether or not Piccadilly is a valid destination on this fare.

There is an argument to say that "MANCHESTER CTLZ" includes Piccadilly and therefore the shortest route to Piccadilly is valid.

Certainly that would be true if the destination was, say, Mauldeth Road or Levenshulme; no-one can deny your right to travel via Salford Crescent on such a ticket.

But the counter-argument is that you can only pick your choice of Manchester Stations providing you don't travel beyond the Manchester Stations group in order to do so.

In the example described, as the fare to Salford Crescent is the same, there is no revenue reason for the train companies to dis-allow the use of tickets via Salford Crescent, but I do not think it is adequately defined whether or not it is allowed. Clarification that it is allowed would be welcome.

.I believe a NRE itinerary showing the ticket used at the time of travel is considered to be a definitive statement of validity.
True, this is stated on the NRE website.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types.aspx#Ticket validity
. When you book your journey online, any ticket offered in connection with the timetable or itinerary produced by the journey planner will be accepted as a permitted route.
 

pemma

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Other scenarios may differ, but in this case the question is whether or not a ticket with the destination "MANCHESTER CTLZ" expires at the point you leave the Manchester Stations group or not.

A ticket cannot be used beyond the destination, but it is not clear-cut in this case whether or not Piccadilly is a valid destination on this fare.

There is an argument to say that "MANCHESTER CTLZ" includes Piccadilly and therefore the shortest route to Piccadilly is valid.

Certainly that would be true if the destination was, say, Mauldeth Road or Levenshulme; no-one can deny your right to travel via Salford Crescent on such a ticket.

Could the automatic Metrolink add-ons confuse matters? For instance, for Stoke to Smithy Bridge you'd to travel via Salford Crescent or walk between Piccadilly and Victoria or use a form of transport not included on your ticket to get between the two stations. However, for Stockport to Smithy Bridge the ticket is sold as Route: Manchester CTLZ which implies you have to use Metrolink to get between Piccadilly and Victoria. So if a ticket's sold to Manchester CTLZ and your train goes to Piccadilly does the shortest route to Victoria become via Metrolink?

While it wouldn't affect the validity of the ticket it would be very strange for someone to try to get to Piccadilly from Stalybridge via Salford Crescent given Stalybridge has 2tph to Victoria and 2tph to Piccadilly, meaning it would probably be quicker to wait for the next direct service. Although, that doesn't change the fact the guard said it was OK to travel to Salford Crescent on the ticket as it's the same price.
 

yorkie

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... for Stockport to Smithy Bridge the ticket is sold as Route: Manchester CTLZ which implies you have to use Metrolink to get between Piccadilly and Victoria...
It doesn't force you to take Metrolink but it gives you the option.
So if a ticket's sold to Manchester CTLZ and your train goes to Piccadilly does the shortest route to Victoria become via Metrolink?
The shortest route remains via Salford Crescent.
 

craigwilson

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Other scenarios may differ, but in this case the question is whether or not a ticket with the destination "MANCHESTER CTLZ" expires at the point you leave the Manchester Stations group or not.

A ticket cannot be used beyond the destination, but it is not clear-cut in this case whether or not Piccadilly is a valid destination on this fare.

There is an argument to say that "MANCHESTER CTLZ" includes Piccadilly and therefore the shortest route to Piccadilly is valid.

Certainly that would be true if the destination was, say, Mauldeth Road or Levenshulme; no-one can deny your right to travel via Salford Crescent on such a ticket.

But the counter-argument is that you can only pick your choice of Manchester Stations providing you don't travel beyond the Manchester Stations group in order to do so.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always assumed the same reasoning is behind why you aren't (or weren't) allowed to cross through Farringdon in London on a "London Terminals" ticket - as Farringdon is the only station in the sequnce St Pancras-Farringdon-City Thameslink-Blackfriars not to be a London Terminal, you can't access City Thameslink on a "London Terminals" ticket having already passed through St Pancras, and vice versa - as you enter Farringdon, you have left "London Terminals" so your ticket is no longer valid.

I interpret the Manchester situation to be the same, with Salford Cresent being the Farringdon equivalent i.e. you leave Manchester Stns/CTLZ and re-enter by going via Salford Crescent. So I consider a ticket to Manchester Stns/CTLZ cannot be used for e.g Victoria via Salford if it goes Piccadilly-Deansgate-Salford-Man Vic.

Whether that is the official line, I don't know, but for me, it's ambiguous enough I wouldn't try it - whatever the NRE itinerary says.
 
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gray1404

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The good news here is that we have been able to get an itinerary generated so Northern will have to honor this.
 
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