26% Pay increase? GTR drivers.

Hi all,

Am I correct in saying that ASLEF have agreed a 26% pay increase to all GTR drivers? Saw a parliament report from internet but just wanted any further confirmation.

Thanks

PhoenixBC said:

Hi all,

Am I correct in saying that ASLEF have agreed a 26% pay increase to all GTR drivers? Saw a parliament report from internet but just wanted any further confirmation.

Thanks

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Where/when is the parliament report?

Here
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo.../ChrisGibbReportImprovementsToSouthernRailway

PhoenixBC said:

Here
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo.../ChrisGibbReportImprovementsToSouthernRailway

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Thanks. Very helpful.

I've only quickly scrolled through, but can see 3 backbenchers have said in their speeches that a 26%,24% and 23% offer has been made, but there is no response from a minister to those claims. Grayling does say there are 350 drivers in training and that it takes far too long for them to be driving.

I think these figures came from a newspaper report and I think have been discussed in one of the other threads on here. Not sure how accurate it all is.

At a cursory glance I can only see a reference to them declinging a 24% increase

Does the Secretary of State agree that, whatever the union’s concerns, whether it is rejecting the 24% pay rise or other issues, the only way to resolve its concerns is to get back round the table? Overtime bans and strike action will not resolve the situation; it just makes life worse for passengers.

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be helpful if you could point out and copy and paste wehre you saw this as its rather long

This should be interesting.

Here is a condensed version from Facebook, Chris Philp.

After some months of good progress on Southern, the latest industrial action from Aslef has hit services hard in recent days. It is completely unacceptable. Yet again the union’s unnecessary strike action is hurting passengers and causing huge disruption.
Since 29 June ASLEF, the union which represents train drivers, has been operating a train driver’s overtime ban. This means that drivers are only working a 4 day week (the 5th is considered “overtime” and is therefore voluntary) – which is preventing Southern from running around a quarter of their services. The Secretary of State ordered GTR/Southern Rail to recruit more drivers last year. They have been complying with this, and new drivers are coming on stream all the time, but it takes time to recruit and train new drivers.
As the independent Gibb report stated - “the RMT and ASLEF leadership... are the primary cause for the system integrity to fail, by taking strike action… declining to work overtime and generally not supporting and undermining the system integrity.”
Aslef has refused offers from negotiations three times now. Most recently they have been offered a pay increase of 25 percent, from £51,000 to £63,000 for a 4 day week - or around £75,000 for a 5 day week - in order to resolve this dispute, yet ASLEF is still refusing. There is no excuse for ASLEF to have refused such a generous offer – especially given that they have already accepted a very similar offer on Thameslink services.
They have also cited the introduction of Driver Operated Doors, which happened back in January, as a further reason to strike claiming there are safety issues if the driver (instead of the conductor) operates the door. There is no safety issue. 30% of all UK surface trains use Driver Operated Doors, going back to 1984. Most continental European trains use Driver Operated Doors and all of London Underground operates this way on far more crowded platforms perfectly safely.
The introduction of Driver Operated Doors has not entailed any pay cuts or job losses, and all trains scheduled to have two staff (Driver plus Conductor/“On Board Supervisor”) will continue to do so. However, if the conductor fails to show up because they are late, sick or on strike then the train can still run. This is the real reason the Unions don’t like it – because conductor strikes cannot now shut down the railway, thereby reducing the Union’s power to hold the company and passengers to ransom.
This is not to absolve GTR/Southern Rail of all blame. The service they provide even on days without any strike action is well below the levels that passengers should expect and I believe that their franchise should be broken up. I have also secured major investments to be made into the line, including a £300 million programme of track and point improvements (in line with the Gibb report) that are now underway and hopefully a further £1 billion in the future to end the effects that pinch points like East Croydon and Windmill Junction have on services. You can read more on this here - http://www.chrisphilp.com/blog.asp?BlogID=87.
I call on ASLEF to end their damaging refusal to work a 5 day week, and accept the very generous 25% pay increase drivers have been offered, which takes them up to £63,000 for a 4 day week or around £75,000 for a 5 day week.

In the original it references Thameslink and Great Northern as having already accepted 24% increase.

Is it possible to apply to be a train driver aged 51?

I really don't see why not. Try.

If this really is about safety, surely the offer would be rejected however high it goes?

I wonder what the catch is, in addition to accepting DOO.

It saddens me that those in power have come to regard and treat train crew so badly. It's just so full of half truths and inaccuracies, they are just determined to attack and misrepresent us. First it's the RSSB, now it's the Gibb Report being used to smear us and blame us for their own failed system...and why? Because someone is daring to speak up for themselves instead of rolling over? Because they resent us being well paid, especially as a result of the competitive job market THEY introduced to the industry with privatisation? Because those bolshy working classes are getting above themselves? I am sick and tired of being slurred by badly informed figures in authority who have been given carte blanch to spread disinformation while I don't have the chance to be heard. And we know what's coming next, they will use the Gibb Report to reply to the force majeure judgement and on we go with no progress made. Sad sad times.

at those wages a southern driver might be able to afford a mortgage.

Notice he doesn't mention that it's 5 days worth of work condensed into 4. And that it is therefore full time hours over those four days, so a "refusal" to work a fifth is because it's actually a day off. One volunteers for overtime. It's deliberately written to make out like drivers are skiving out of work on the '5th' day.

25% rise? What just like that? All at once?

No. The Thameslink one referred to was over four years and the documentation that spelled out the deal was at least four pages long - That's right, it contained 'productivity' changes to Terms & Conditions. Perhaps, maybe, some of these are sticking points in the Southern deal that's been offered?

And adding to the figure with what could be EARNED in overtime - you know, working yet more unsociable hours, on your days OFF, to make Drivers look even more greedy and unreasonable. Wow. I'm surprised he hadn't said that we sometimes finish by lunchtime! (Without mentioning that we started work at half past three in the morning.)

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand it is redistributing some of the savings made by no longer paying for guards on the train which is fair, but on the other hand there are now people getting paid ridiculously high salaries for just driving trains when it never has been such a highly paid job.

It's better than 100% of the savings going into the shareholders new bmw, but not as good as the savings being fully reinvested into the infrastructure and services.

goblinuser said:

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand it is redistributing some of the savings made by no longer paying for guards on the train which is fair, but on the other hand there are now people getting paid ridiculously high salaries for just driving trains when it never has been such a highly paid job.

It's better than 100% of the savings going into the shareholders new bmw, but not as good as the savings being fully reinvested into the infrastructure and services.

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Savings won't get reinvested. Investment decisions will occur in spite of any piecemeal savings made at the grass roots. Fares won't reduce either.

I would respectfully suggest poor pay in the past is no guide to what a job is worth. Are nurses to be poorly paid forever because that's what always happened despite their worth to society? Who is to say that drivers' pay is "ridiculously high" and can you tell me why you say "just" driving trains?

I see Chris Philp was born in West Wickham, if he thinks DOO is safe I might have to email the RSSB report of West Wickham.

goblinuser said:

It's better than 100% of the savings going into the shareholders new bmw, but not as good as the savings being fully reinvested into the infrastructure and services.

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I've got a Skoda.

And it wasn't new.

PhoenixBC said:

HYou can read more on this here - http://www.chrisphilp.com/blog.asp?BlogID=87.
I call on ASLEF to end their damaging refusal to work a 5 day week, and accept the very generous 25% pay increase drivers have been offered, which takes them up to £63,000 for a 4 day week or around £75,000 for a 5 day week.

In the original it references Thameslink and Great Northern as having already accepted 24% increase.

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Or you can listen to this-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyf1FuU3VL0

No mention that the 5th day is actually overtime as (I think) Southern are on a 35hr 4 day week.

At 3m50s he mentions the overtime strike, since when has not working overtime been a strike?

Another very selective piece from an MP.

The 'Independent' Gibb report, yeah whatever, he has even got it written on his CV that he worked during a Guards strike so I think it fair to assume he has no love for the Guards grade!

every modern report seems to start off with the answer, they then have to find all the bits to back up the 'conclusion' without mentioning any of the negative bits.

The 75000 figure mentioned is wholly irrelevant and is only being mentioned to stir up the brown stuff. They are trying to buy the drivers off over safety.... eventually it will work, but i can promise you that most Southern drivers would rather have a guard back and no changes to the condition than this payrise

....also the payrise is to compensate for a higher workload ..which is happening right now....why should it be spread over 4 years when the increased work load is happening right now.

physics34 said:

The 75000 figure mentioned is wholly irrelevant and is only being mentioned to stir up the brown stuff. They are trying to buy the drivers off over safety.... eventually it will work, but i can promise you that most Southern drivers would rather have a guard back and no changes to the condition than this payrise

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I think we're all aware of that. That's why the payrise was turned down. Unfortunately ASLEF need to get that message out, that they are trying to buy drivers into accepting reduced safety and they won't do that at any price.

Hi nuneaton mark I am 47 and have just done the 2nd assesment day for gtr great northern give it a shot mate

PhoenixBC said:

Here is a condensed version from Facebook, Chris Philp.

...

Aslef has refused offers from negotiations three times now. Most recently they have been offered a pay increase of 25 percent, from £51,000 to £63,000 for a 4 day week
...

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Taking about how much people get paid can be very emotive, with all sides often claiming that they are under paid whilst others are over paid.

The problem is that people tend to only look at those that are better off than they are and so only see that there are people that are better off than they are and don't notice that that are worse off.

Something that can be beneficial can be to understand where you really fit in terms of pay scale.

This link takes you to sure that gives you a broad idea of where you fit: https://www.ifs.org.uk/wheredoyoufitin/

If you take the lower figure from above of £51,000 and enter it into the calculation (assuming the site income to a family of 5 with 3 primary aged or under children) then it comes in at higher that 65% of individual.

Increase it to £63,000 and it rises so that such a driver is earning more than 78% of the population.

Do I think that it is a fair reward for such a safety critical role where you may need to undertake a lot of unsociable hours, probably.

Do I see that people can get resentful because the see drivers as being from "the other half" (at least in terms earnings), then yes I can.

otomous said:

Savings won't get reinvested. Investment decisions will occur in spite of any piecemeal savings made at the grass roots. Fares won't reduce either.

I would respectfully suggest poor pay in the past is no guide to what a job is worth. Are nurses to be poorly paid forever because that's what always happened despite their worth to society? Who is to say that drivers' pay is "ridiculously high" and can you tell me why you say "just" driving trains?

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An important distinction to add is that Drivers T and Cs are determined in the private sector, unlike the state paid nurses.

goblinuser said:

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand it is redistributing some of the savings made by no longer paying for guards on the train which is fair, but on the other hand there are now people getting paid ridiculously high salaries for just driving trains when it never has been such a highly paid job.

It's better than 100% of the savings going into the shareholders new bmw, but not as good as the savings being fully reinvested into the infrastructure and services.

Click to expand...

"Just" driving trains? I take it you've done the job, then? If not, I would suggest that comment comes from a place of complete ignorance.

How would you feel about telling us what you do for a living, how much you are paid and letting us consider whether you are paid appropriately (having never done your job)? Personally I'd want to walk a mile in your shoes before commenting.

The £75k figure is a complete red herring. It's based on someone working 20% above their contracted requirement. What people overlook is that we already squeeze what most people consider to be a full 5 day week into 4 days, working unsocial hours, extreme shift patterns and with levels of responsibility far in excess of most jobs.

Always pleased to see people inventing yet more fictional terms for DOO. "Driver Operated Doors" is not a thing, DOO is - and it's so convenient that everyone ignores a whole host of Rule Book compliant capabilities which the rollout of DOO removes from train crew arrangements.

The horrifying thing is that the broadly untrained OBS grade is actually paid more than conductors ever were - and there are also lots and lots of new entrants beyond the existing conductor pool. So you have two roles, one skilled and paid generously - the drivers - who feel the burden of taking more responsibility for the cash ... and one much less skilled yet still paid more generously than ever, as well - the OBSs.

So, from an operational perspective, or rather operational value for money spent, there seem to be serious problems with transparency. How do drivers and OBSs get paid £60-70k and £35-40k respectively? And surely the only reason this is not being deemed acceptable by the workforce isn't spite or ignorance or being old-fashioned, but concern for why the pay packet is offered. Or so many drivers would have me believe.

One smells an unfortunate scenario where the budget from the OBS pay will one day, eventually, if ASLEF are led into it somehow, be used as the budget for driver pay increase. Then it will be driver operated everything, not just a few trains per day.

In any case, in terms of stability of services, the fact of the matter is that drivers may not wish to do more overtime with a pay increase of 20something percent, so as long as recruitment issues still have a legacy, rostering will still present problems. How many drivers are desperate enough to be able to give GTR the consistent one-day-per-week overtime commitment on this proposed money - and can it be easily predicted?

Regardless of the fact that £75k isn't a real figure, drivers are paid very well and 26% over 4 years is a very generous pay increase. Ridiculously generous in the current economic climate. From this, and the fact that drivers refused the offer, I think two conclusions are ineluctable:

1. Drivers are very fortunate in that they earn enough that they can refuse such an offer - most people would accept all sorts of changes to their T&Cs to get such a rise at this time.

2. There is an ulterior motive behind the offer and given the franchise, that motive must come from DfT - GTR simply couldn't afford this offer unless DfT were behind it.

I think some people at DfT are getting desperate to sort this dispute out, so they can present the whole sorry enterprise as some sort of success.

HH said:

[...] and 26% over 4 years is a very generous pay increase. Ridiculously generous in the current economic climate. [...]

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This works out as 5.9% per year. The "economic climate" is one of rising inflation expectations. CPI in May was 2.9%, so even if this stayed constant, the real pay rise would be around 3% per year for the next 4 years. That doesn't seem that generous, given the extra responsibilities.

HH said:

Regardless of the fact that £75k isn't a real figure, drivers are paid very well and 26% over 4 years is a very generous pay increase. Ridiculously generous in the current economic climate. From this, and the fact that drivers refused the offer, I think two conclusions are ineluctable:

1. Drivers are very fortunate in that they earn enough that they can refuse such an offer - most people would accept all sorts of changes to their T&Cs to get such a rise at this time.

2. There is an ulterior motive behind the offer and given the franchise, that motive must come from DfT - GTR simply couldn't afford this offer unless DfT were behind it.

I think some people at DfT are getting desperate to sort this dispute out, so they can present the whole sorry enterprise as some sort of success.

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That very much depends on what the changes to T&Cs are. Working as a driver is very different to working in an office 9-5. Things that the latter wouldn't think about become much more significant for a driver. For example, turn lengths, length of period in the cab, ability to change spare turns. It's already a chaotic life working flexible shifts, with days off being the only days you can be really sure of planning properly, so what seems unimportant to outsiders e.g. The company ability to move start and finish times, is massively important to shift workers. The TOCs are very quick to publicise overtime bans as if we have just refused to work an extra ten minutes rather than our actual days off, and now we even have an MP implying that we are expected to work a fifth day in return for overtime as a matter of course and that we are greedy for not doing so!

Walk in someone else's shoes before criticising them

Accept that things are never as simple as they first appear

NB I commuted to a 9-5 job for 15 years before becoming a driver so I well know the difference