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Severn Beach line turbos off to a good start - not

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jimm

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Yet another day of numerous delays and cancellations today by the looks of it already.

If things don't improve very soon, a lot of passengers will give up using the trains along this line and use the buses instead.

Would an emergency TT do the trick? Basically same amount of stock but extended running times and reduced frequency. At least it would be published but doubt they would be able to amend the frequency without DfT approval.

All was going well this morning until something happened with the 07.15 from Severn Beach, which left right time, but was then 17 minutes late away from St Andrew's Road. Someone may know what that was all about.

It doesn't appear to be about timetabled running times, acceleration of the 166, dispatch methods or anything like that - just look at the first couple of hours' service today until something went wrong with that 07.15 departure and all the meets at the loops were thrown out as a result.

Timetabling on the line is so tight that once that happens, trying to recover is near impossible, unless you turn back short or knock out a service or two. Once that was done after 10am today, things have settled down again.

Last Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, the morning peaks all passed off without any issues, indeed on Friday all was going pretty much to plan until mid-afternoon, then the afternoon peak was a mess, before mid to late evening was also fine.

So I can't see an emergency timetable would really serve any purpose. The tight turnarounds don't help but without wrecking the entire timetable it's hard to see what could be done, unless another unit was put on the circuit to ensure right-time starts from Temple Meads, with the inbound service then laying over until the next departure, but that approach would probably run into the issue of platform capacity at Temple Meads. Roll on the removal of the signal box...

Are the current issues perhaps down in part to staff who are still getting to know the trains and their quirks, things which Thames Valley staff would probably take in their stride, whereas the Bristol train crews are on a fairly steep learning curve and immediately fear the worst if something crops up?

Rather as you worry instantly if a yellow or red light comes on in an unfamiliar car.

The 166s can't suddenly have become iffy the instant they left the Thames Valley, where they are a byword for reliability.
 
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Dai Corner

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According to NRE, the last few trains at Clifton Down have been near to on time. IF all are still Turbos then maybe the worst is over...

Although it appears they cancelled a round trip between Avonmouth and Severn Beach (to recover the service?)

Edited to add jimm had already mentioned that.

I wonder if it would help to have a Thames Valley driver and guard on the branch showing Bristol crews the quirks of the 166s and giving them more confidence in dealing with them?
 
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YorkshireBear

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Is there an element of us not noticing the unreliability before???

As the new trains were introduced many of us focussed on the line and noticed things that perhaps before, we would not.
 

embers25

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Is there an element of us not noticing the unreliability before???

As the new trains were introduced many of us focussed on the line and noticed things that perhaps before, we would not.

Yes and also in London they often run in multiple so if one fails its just a short form not a cancellation, unlike on Severn Beach. Doesn't bode well for Pompey-Cardiff though!
 

High Dyke

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All was going well this morning until something happened with the 07.15 from Severn Beach, which left right time, but was then 17 minutes late away from St Andrew's Road. Someone may know what that was all about.
The offending unit (166205) seemed to have brake release problems. Attempts by the driver to rectify the matter were unsuccessful, but it was found the guard had accidently operated the emergency plunger.

Persons with a better technical understanding of these units may be able to explain further.
 
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cactustwirly

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Yes and also in London they often run in multiple so if one fails its just a short form not a cancellation, unlike on Severn Beach. Doesn't bode well for Pompey-Cardiff though!

Only in the peaks, they operate as single 3 car units in the off peak period.
The turbos are very reliable in the Thames Valley so failure in service is very rare.
 

SpacePhoenix

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The offending unit (166205) seemed to have brake release problems. Attempts by the driver to rectify the matter were unsuccessful, but it was found the guard had accidently operated the emergency plunger.

Persons with a better technical understanding of these units may be able to explain further.

Apart from the brake pressure gauge do train crew get any other indication (lights/TMS (if they have one), etc that the emergency plunger has been activated in one of the cabs?
 

50031

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They definitely operate in multiple as well as singly, off peak and to some extent on Saturdays
 

IanXC

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Is anyone aware of any measures which have been taken in terms of staff familiarisation? Thinking of the last time an existing fleet made such a distinct move to a new area, I seem to recall a fitter from Cauldwell moved to work at Allerton alongside the 319s?
 

cactustwirly

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Is anyone aware of any measures which have been taken in terms of staff familiarisation? Thinking of the last time an existing fleet made such a distinct move to a new area, I seem to recall a fitter from Cauldwell moved to work at Allerton alongside the 319s?

Fitters at St Phillip's Marsh were trained on half of 165124, a few months before the 166 cascade
 

D6975

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Is a 166 (performing well!) a bit overspecced for the Severn Beach line?
No, it's underspecced, which is why they are having trouble with timekeeping.
The 150/9s are slightly quicker off the mark. The capacity is similar, the 3 car 150s used to run full and standing at peak hours, so much so that I have on occasion had difficulty getting on the train at all when a 2 car was substituted.
 

Parallel

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There have been more part-cancellations at Clifton Down this morning. Unfortunately they haven't helped with trains still running 15-20 mins late.
 

BestWestern

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Apart from the brake pressure gauge do train crew get any other indication (lights/TMS (if they have one), etc that the emergency plunger has been activated in one of the cabs?

No TMS kit on a Turbo.

Do they not have an alarm or warning beeper/buzzer attached?
 
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WelshBluebird

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The reliability around the general Bristol area (including Bath) has been worse than normal recently too. So I wonder how much of the Severn Beach issues are specifically to do with the Turbo's, or if it is a symptom of the more general issues in the area at the moment.
 

BestWestern

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The reliability around the general Bristol area (including Bath) has been worse than normal recently too. So I wonder how much of the Severn Beach issues are specifically to do with the Turbo's, or if it is a symptom of the more general issues in the area at the moment.

The general issues at the moment are primarily down to a shortage or units, so the Turbos shouldn't be connected with that particular problem. Indeed, they should be assisting in relieving it.
 

Steamager

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Well, the turbos took over the Beach line today and..
0629 0836 0915 1115
departures from Avonmouth all cancelled.
Not sure if it's the turbos or some other problem, but not a good start.
:(

In steam days a loco foreman might be told to send his best engines to another shed, and he would - send the ones best got rid of!
Old habits die hard it seems
 

Parallel

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In steam days a loco foreman might be told to send his best engines to another shed, and he would - send the ones best got rid of!
Old habits die hard it seems

I think there are quite a few factors as to why it's gone badly. I also get the impression that The Severn Beach line was never taken that seriously at FGW. When Pacers dominated the line in the last decade, if a unit failed elsewhere, they'd just take a pacer off the Severn Beach Line for the rest of the day leaving many of the services cancelled. Most stations have very basic facilities only, and the service frequency for a 'metro' route in a large city is poor. The fares are also very very low, which isn't a bad thing but it does make me question how profitable it is. With the current infrastructure, the most you could offer would be a half hourly service with trains passing at Clifton Down and Avonmouth (and the trains continuing to Severn Beach would have about 10 mins turn around time). Bristol also suffers from having its main station not centrally located to the city centre too so there will always be huge competition from bus companies.

The Bristol area needs a 'rail revolution' IMO, and there is a market for it as the roads are congested. Outside of the Bristol area, the rail links are fairly limited. Hopefully 'MetroWest' will being nothing but advantages. The Portishead line needs to happen sooner rather than later, and this would give Bedminster/Parson Street at least a half hourly service rather than hourly. The Severn Beach line needs more than 1tp40m. Also other 'easy' rail links to commuter towns - I.e. Thornbury to Bristol which would give Yate a half-hourly service. Maybe looking at options for Radstock and Midsummer Norton too as these are largely commuter towns. We're getting into fantasy areas now but even trams serving areas without any rail travel, feeding to existing rail stations would improve transport links in the city.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I think there are quite a few factors as to why it's gone badly. I also get the impression that The Severn Beach line was never taken that seriously at FGW. When Pacers dominated the line in the last decade, if a unit failed elsewhere, they'd just take a pacer off the Severn Beach Line for the rest of the day leaving many of the services cancelled. Most stations have very basic facilities only, and the service frequency for a 'metro' route in a large city is poor. The fares are also very very low, which isn't a bad thing but it does make me question how profitable it is. With the current infrastructure, the most you could offer would be a half hourly service with trains passing at Clifton Down and Avonmouth (and the trains continuing to Severn Beach would have about 10 mins turn around time). Bristol also suffers from having its main station not centrally located to the city centre too so there will always be huge competition from bus companies.

I think you'll probably find not a single one of the ex-Wessex routes makes a profit. Even Cardiff-Portsmouth will struggle to cover its costs, despite in theory being the flagship 'West' service. If it had been historically profitable, it would have been reclassified into the Intercity sector in the 1980s and history would be very different. (I believe this actually nearly happened.) The Severn Beach line is financed along the lines of the Cardiff Valleys; high subsidy, very low fares (otherwise ridership would be poor) and therefore high loss-maker. It means any investment in infrastructure or trains needs strong local government support. If you want things to improve in the long run, that's where campaigning should be focussed. No point in speaking to the TOC because they will be invariably pushing for these sort of improvements already.
(IMO - it's a no-brainer for a light-rail conversion, in a similar vein to the Oldham loop becoming part of Metrolink. Shame Bristol / Gloucestershire councils couldn't agree funding for the Bristol tram a few years ago and the project died, what a massive loss with hindsight. Bristol is so obvious for light rail. The way things are going now, Bath might get trams first!)
 

jimm

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I think there are quite a few factors as to why it's gone badly. I also get the impression that The Severn Beach line was never taken that seriously at FGW. When Pacers dominated the line in the last decade, if a unit failed elsewhere, they'd just take a pacer off the Severn Beach Line for the rest of the day leaving many of the services cancelled. Most stations have very basic facilities only, and the service frequency for a 'metro' route in a large city is poor. The fares are also very very low, which isn't a bad thing but it does make me question how profitable it is. With the current infrastructure, the most you could offer would be a half hourly service with trains passing at Clifton Down and Avonmouth (and the trains continuing to Severn Beach would have about 10 mins turn around time). Bristol also suffers from having its main station not centrally located to the city centre too so there will always be huge competition from bus companies.

The Bristol area needs a 'rail revolution' IMO, and there is a market for it as the roads are congested. Outside of the Bristol area, the rail links are fairly limited. Hopefully 'MetroWest' will being nothing but advantages. The Portishead line needs to happen sooner rather than later, and this would give Bedminster/Parson Street at least a half hourly service rather than hourly. The Severn Beach line needs more than 1tp40m. Also other 'easy' rail links to commuter towns - I.e. Thornbury to Bristol which would give Yate a half-hourly service. Maybe looking at options for Radstock and Midsummer Norton too as these are largely commuter towns. We're getting into fantasy areas now but even trams serving areas without any rail travel, feeding to existing rail stations would improve transport links in the city.

Not really relevant to the specifics of current issues with Turbo operations at Bristol. Maybe for another thread elsewhere.

Today seems to be a bit up and down again on Avonmouth/Severn Beach services - looks as though they are still struggling with the limited turnaround time allowed at Temple Meads and knock-on effects from that.
 

BestWestern

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The Severn Beach line is financed along the lines of the Cardiff Valleys; high subsidy, very low fares (otherwise ridership would be poor) and therefore high loss-maker.

Perhaps once upon a time, but I think it's very clearly apparent that the line no longer requires assistance attracting ridership, certainly during the peaks. Trains are packed, there is little viable alternative if you want a swift journey into or out of Bristol (the traffic is abysmal and the buses are, well, Firstbus), and there would seem to be little reason why those using this one particular route should be charmed enough to travel for peanuts while everyone else pays through the nose. Peaktime fares at normal levels should be introduced to move toward the line paying for itself, instead of the council ratepayers funding other people's commute. There is probably a reasonable debate to be had about the off peak services, but certainly a full and standing three car train shouldn't be carting people about for as little as 75p.

I agree with your other point about Portsmouth - Cardiff profitability. There are the costs of maintaining a depot in Portsmouth, which includes a significant extra cost for the use of SWT facilities, the cost of the turnaround servicing by both SWT and ATW, and the cost of providing Railgourmet catering on most weekday runs. There are also a vast number of very cheap Advance fares sold for the route. All of which must make quite a dent in the revenues.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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It would be very interesting to see what would need to be done to make the Severn-Solent route at least balance its costs with revenue (assuming we're correct that it doesn't already.) Given the route suffers from overcrowding but much of the traffic involves intermediate stations, simply cutting stops and changing timetable patterns likely isn't the answer, and the intercity-type journeys such as Bristol-Southampton don't exactly compete with motorway-standard alternatives.
 

Mojo

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Perhaps once upon a time, but I think it's very clearly apparent that the line no longer requires assistance attracting ridership, certainly during the peaks. Trains are packed, there is little viable alternative if you want a swift journey into or out of Bristol (the traffic is abysmal and the buses are, well, Firstbus), and there would seem to be little reason why those using this one particular route should be charmed enough to travel for peanuts while everyone else pays through the nose. Peaktime fares at normal levels should be introduced to move toward the line paying for itself, instead of the council ratepayers funding other people's commute. There is probably a reasonable debate to be had about the off peak services, but certainly a full and standing three car train shouldn't be carting people about for as little as 75p.
Essentially the issue regarding the fares is that because the fares on the line are regulated, it is proving difficult to reach a compromise whereby the fares are increased to a round amount but within the scope of fares regulation by the DfT (single fares are currently £1.50 or £2 and return fares are £2 or £3). It is possible to apply to the DfT for a derogation under the regulated fares regime, and this was done last time the fares changed and there were fare increases in excess of 100% agreed under the auspices of Community rail, however for various political reasons, more recent derogations were not sought. The last attempt was done back in the days of FGW, however their document was so badly written it was rejected by the Community Rail Partnership.
 

Parallel

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Another reported cancellation on the Severn Beach Line on JC this afternoon due to a 'broken down train' - this route is going to start rivalling the Worcester - Malvern and Bristol - Brighton services for cancellations at this rate (both incidentally also currently listed)
 

Dai Corner

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I didn't realise how low Severn Beach line fares were until I read the above posts. For illustration, here are the SDR fares and distances (to the nearest mile) for some local journeys from Temple Meads

Yate 12m £6.10
Yatton 12m £8.40
Bath Spa 11m £8.60
Severn Beach 14m £3.00

and in the Valleys, from Cardiff Central

Pontypridd 12m £7.00
Aberdare 23m £8.00
 

jimm

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What does any of this have to do with the use of Turbos on the line and current issues?

This the Diagrams, Allocations & Timetables area
 

IanXC

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Essentially the issue regarding the fares is that because the fares on the line are regulated, it is proving difficult to reach a compromise whereby the fares are increased to a round amount but within the scope of fares regulation by the DfT (single fares are currently £1.50 or £2 and return fares are £2 or £3). It is possible to apply to the DfT for a derogation under the regulated fares regime, and this was done last time the fares changed and there were fare increases in excess of 100% agreed under the auspices of Community rail, however for various political reasons, more recent derogations were not sought. The last attempt was done back in the days of FGW, however their document was so badly written it was rejected by the Community Rail Partnership.

And of course, the franchise as a whole doesn't have this problem to the extent that a franchise objective be inserted as per Northern's fares rebalancing.
 

Starmill

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And of course, the franchise as a whole doesn't have this problem to the extent that a franchise objective be inserted as per Northern's fares rebalancing.

I think the problem within Great Western is worse by some way than it is or every was within Northern. E.g. for Bristol Temple Meads to Newbury, a route Westbury SOR is £29.40, but the same ticket that allows travel via Reading is £152.20 - a factor of 5.2 depending on whether or not you cross the 'Swindon boundary'. The cheapest return from Taunton to Penzance is £59.10, but from Tiverton Parkway it's £21.40. It's just that with Northern all of their tickets were cheap, but the parallel operators (particularly TP) increased the fares too much.
 
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Class 33

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It did look as though by Monday afternoon the problems were over and a normal service returning. But no, yesterday and today still a number of delays, services terminated short and cancellations. This line will become known as "The Misery Line" before too long! Unless these problems can be fixed.
 
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