Economics of Riverbus services

Its a Chain ferry.

Mojo said:

It doesn't have to be though. I always find the inefficiency of docking and unloading to be one of the most painful parts of travelling by boat, but was very impressed with the SeaBus in Vancouver that I visited recently. The boat docks in between two piers and six bridges come down on each side (6 doors on each side in total). Customers leave on one side, staff check the vessel is empty, and they open doors for boarding on the other side. I timed it and on every occasion doors are opened within 25 seconds of stopping. The large number of doors means that it is great for getting customers on and off quickly. Doors open automatically on both sides.

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Likewise with the Staten Island Ferry in New York I sampled last week. Massive vessel, but docking and loading is a very rapid process. I was surprised at how efficient it was.

The big issue is their slow speed (whether by local speed restriction or by design) that makes them unsuitable outside the city limits.

Their big advantage is the ability to zig zag waterways and provide new links that dont involve an expensive bridge or tunnel.

Is it only me who thinks that the Thames Clipper service in London should be fully integrated into the Travelcard/Oyster scheme, and shown on the map with all the London Rail Services? I think this is a missed opportunity.

JoeGJ1984 said:

Is it only me who thinks that the Thames Clipper service in London should be fully integrated into the Travelcard/Oyster scheme, and shown on the map with all the London Rail Services? I think this is a missed opportunity.

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I think capacity is the issue.

Capacity would be self-adjusting, in that if people find they always have to queue then enough of them would find a different means of transport until the queues reduced to tolerable levels. I think the lack of full integration is more about them charging a premium fare (the Dangleway charges extra and appears on the Tube map but that's a politically-driven anomaly that affects hardly anyone).

The per passenger operating costs of the river bus are likely to be more than for other modes. TfL could choose to subsidise the difference but by spending more would not really creating any point to point routeings that aren't already easy to do by other modes. Unlike, say, Staten Island Ferry, the Thames Clipper isn't really an essential link in anyone's journey. They would also annoy the tourist boat people by creating "unfair competition".

edwin_m said:

Capacity would be self-adjusting, in that if people find they always have to queue then enough of them would find a different means of transport until the queues reduced to tolerable levels. I think the lack of full integration is more about them charging a premium fare (the Dangleway charges extra and appears on the Tube map but that's a politically-driven anomaly that affects hardly anyone).

The per passenger operating costs of the river bus are likely to be more than for other modes. TfL could choose to subsidise the difference but by spending more would not really creating any point to point routeings that aren't already easy to do by other modes. Unlike, say, Staten Island Ferry, the Thames Clipper isn't really an essential link in anyone's journey. They would also annoy the tourist boat people by creating "unfair competition".

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TfL is so short of cash it's not funny. A subsidy for the 'bankers of Canary Wharf' (as such a decision would be portrayed, not without justification) would go down like a lead balloon.

I got the chance to take a ride on the Brisbane City Cat when I was there. Absolutely amazing and very fast when you get out of the city centre. The dwell times at the wharfs were pretty short.

edwin_m said:

Capacity would be self-adjusting, in that if people find they always have to queue then enough of them would find a different means of transport until the queues reduced to tolerable levels.

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I think you underestimate just how many first-timers would continually rock up at the piers if they all saw it on the tube maps.

rebmcr said:

I think you underestimate just how many first-timers would continually rock up at the piers if they all saw it on the tube maps.

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I think you're right - they might expect an eighteen hours a day service too!

JoeGJ1984 said:

Is it only me who thinks that the Thames Clipper service in London should be fully integrated into the Travelcard/Oyster scheme, and shown on the map with all the London Rail Services? I think this is a missed opportunity.

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They'd need a hefty subsidy, due to the costs of running because of staffing and fuel consumption

jopsuk said:

Thames Clippers have something like six or seven staff for 220 passengers, on a vehicle with a low top speed that is constrained to a very meandering route!. I've seen some suggestions of running Clipper services out to the estuary towns- but at 33 knots and burning huge amounts of fuel this would be madness. Especially going up river on an ebb tide.

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Each boat has 4 members of crew (one being the bar steward) and they can do 30mph normally but just not between Hermitage Wharf (near Tower) and Lambeth Bridge as that has speed limits due to the sheer amount of traffic. They can only carry what is the limit for the boat due to lifeboats etc.

i get it every day from Woolwich to Blackfriars, takes about 40-45 mins and you have a seat, no need to worry about who's armpit you will get in your face on the Southeastern or DLR


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jamie_ said:

Each boat has 4 members of crew (one being the bar steward) and they can do 30mph normally but just not between Hermitage Wharf (near Tower) and Lambeth Bridge as that has speed limits due to the sheer amount of traffic. They can only carry what is the limit for the boat due to lifeboats etc.

i get it every day from Woolwich to Blackfriars, takes about 40-45 mins and you have a seat, no need to worry about who's armpit you will get in your face on the Southeastern or DLR


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How does the fare compare with, say, Woolwich Arsenal to London SE terminals?

Busaholic said:

How does the fare compare with, say, Woolwich Arsenal to London SE terminals?

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Depends how you pay, they offer discounts for contactless & oyster but its £8.70 for a Central & East purchased at the ticket machines or £6.50 if you use oyster or contactless which will get you all the way to Westminster (or Millbank if you change). If you commute you can get a season ticket and a month one costs £124 compared to £181 for a TfL zone 1-4 one.

But you are guaranteed a seat (unlike Southeastern) and it has a bar

Have to remember that outside of commuter times it is primarily a tourist route so that is probably why it will never fully integrate with TfL.


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River transport does not have to be slow. Take a look at the public transport ferries in Hamburg Germany. Modern Craft, bump up to the side, no ropes, ramp down, passengers on/off, ramp up and away. All done by one member of staff in the 'cab?' Perhaps one other staff member in the café/bar thing. Dwell times at each stop maybe 3 or 3 mins. And its all part of the Local Transport Authority, so totally integrated and runs from early morning to late at night. True integration.

Just to repeat again the City Cat in Brisbane was amazing. Not got a clue how much it requires in subsidy if anything.

Thames Clippers running free trial trips Embankment-Gravesend on 11th-14th Sept. Evening trip leaving at 17.40 from Embankment should make for a nice evening cruise with some long high speed running after Canary Wharf.

Found timings; it'll cover the approximately 23 miles (along the river) in 48 minutes. Which, to be fair, is about as fast as going via DLR or Jubilee line to Stratford, walking to Stratford International and taking an HS1 service. Though for those working at Canary Wharf in the big towers the tube and DLR are closer than the pier, and Gravesend station is in the middle of town, compared again to the pier.

And the Clippers have a capacity that's lower than a single DLR unit.

When I worked at Royal & SunAlliance in Liverpool there were plenty of people from the Wirral who commuted by ferry despite it being slower and less convenient. It was just more pleasant.

jopsuk said:

Found timings; it'll cover the approximately 23 miles (along the river) in 48 minutes. Which, to be fair, is about as fast as going via DLR or Jubilee line to Stratford, walking to Stratford International and taking an HS1 service. Though for those working at Canary Wharf in the big towers the tube and DLR are closer than the pier, and Gravesend station is in the middle of town, compared again to the pier.

And the Clippers have a capacity that's lower than a single DLR unit.

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Even going south to Greenwich or Lewisham and then on the classic line to Gravesend, the timings are similar. An interesting idea though. Has Dartford got anywhere suitable for a pier or is the river too far from the housing?

telstarbox said:

Even going south to Greenwich or Lewisham and then on the classic line to Gravesend, the timings are similar. An interesting idea though. Has Dartford got anywhere suitable for a pier or is the river too far from the housing?

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No. Mostly tidal swamp between Slade Green & Dartford. Completely undeveloped unless you count gypsies fly tipping.

The "river front" at Dartford is the sewage works and a large oil fired power station being decommissioned (that does have a deep water pier associated with it), about two miles from the town centre

All the free tix to Gravesend are now sold out thanks to social media promoting it

The Manchester Water Taxis company has obtained a second boat which they have used to introduce a Spinningfields to Media City service along the River Irwell. 30 minute journey time, hourly frequency and week season tickets for £20. I will be interested to see if succeeds, perhaps a stop nearer Victoria would have been more useful but it is a better location than their other terminus on the Bridgewater Canal near Deansgate.

Until the end of October there was also a year-round ferry between Torquay and Brixham (Brixham Express). This was paid for through a Green Transport Fund grant awarded to the local council and commenced operations in November 2014, with a contract awarded for five years. The service was to use a 100-seat catamaran which was supposedly capable of operating in all weather and tidal conditions in Tor Bay, and would complete the crossing in as little as 15 minutes.

Unfortunately, the service failed for a number of reasons:

- lack of interest from existing (seasonal) ferry operators, which turned into outright hostility when a new company (Brixham Express Ltd) was created to operate the contract. One of the two existing operators subsequently downsized dramatically and withdrew from the Torquay-Brixham seasonal market, blaming the new service. In reality, they had entered a ruinous price war with the other company, who were much better resourced and better able to withstand the losses.

- a purpose-built fast catamaran seating 100 people (40 seats inside) was ordered from an Irish manufacturer, but was held up by red tape and eventually entered service during Spring 2017 - over two years late. Until that time Brixham Express had to rely on small hired-in craft which were not able to achieve the headlining 15-minute journey time.

- lack of support from the local Council, whose direct input seemed to stop at two purpose-built pontoons for this service (although the one at Brixham was, and still is, used also by the other operators) and some half-hearted publicity in its first year of operation.

- unreliability: crossings were often cancelled for unspecified reasons, or were blamed on "operational reasons" or "crew training". Also, despite being described as an all-weather service, there were certain tidal conditions in Tor Bay (notably when strong winds from the south-east blow directly into the Bay) under which the craft did not sail.

All the above caused local antipathy towards the service and anger at the perceived waste of money (although it was funded through a Government grant and not through local taxation), and it was not able to generate the usage required to make it viable. The company took the decision on 25th October 2017 to suspend operation from the end of that day and the catamaran was quickly removed from Brixham to Ireland the day after to await its fate.

Clip said:

Newcastle still has the Tyne ferry though - but its no real surprise as its very good for connecting the two different ends of the estuary

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It's the last of quite a few though, there were some other routes for foot passengers operational when I were a lad, 1960s, maybe another 3 or 4 maybe?

Couldn't tell you as I'm not that old

Glasgow has a couple: there's the Renfrew ferry, running across to Yoker (this is literally straight across the Clyde; it survives without subsidy likely because the nearest crossings in either direction are far enough away that it's a big timesaving if you're starting and ending near both ends), and a summer-only one from Govan (near the Subway station) to the Riverside museum (again, nearly opposite). Both are tiny vessels.

fowler9 said:

Just to repeat again the City Cat in Brisbane was amazing. Not got a clue how much it requires in subsidy if anything.

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Similarly, the ferries in Sydney were outstanding when I used those a couple of years ago. A really comprehensive system, well integrated with other local transport modes and operated with extreme professionalism. I think that ferry operations in the UK are too thin on the ground for their economics to be widely understood (or the concept of using a ferry to be widely accepted by the travelling public). But there is probably a lot for potential UK operators of ferries to learn from places like Sydney, where they are an accepted and important part of allowing locals to get around. In particular, it strikes me that there are probably parallels between the way the Sydney ferries operate today, and the way that an improved Mersey Ferries system might operate in future.

I've never been to Brisbane, but looking at maps it appears there's no metro-type rail running along most of the length of the route?

Ferries are great if there's no competition. If there's no way a tunnel or bridge can be practical or affordable. If there's no effective competition (eg Jubilee Line, Southeastern Metro, DLR) providing higher capacity more frequently faster at a much lower ticket price.