Passenger information: the railway needs to catch up

SPADTrap · 23 Jul 2017

welshpax said:
The AI is self learning so after it has been populated with basic data it will learn itself going forward based on trends and algorithms.

We are at a point now where AI can actually train other AI and humans are out of the link.

In regards to what happens when there are no jobs, then we look at Universal Basic Income where you are paid a salary that covers all your needs by the government.

Where I am based at the moment we will be having self driving taxis within the next few years, so then we will not need taxi drivers, but, look at the bigger picture, self driving means less accidents so we won't need as many police or emergency services.

Automation is coming whether we like it or not, I was at a presentation recently where the speaker confidently stated that within 30 years 90% of jobs will be automated.

You had me convinced as someone who might know what they were talking about right up until you said '..get paid for nothing' or having 'basic needs covered by the government' of the day! :lol:

I'd say your speaker is almost certainly correct and like Nick Abbot on LBC said, that is something no politician is willing to talk about...funny that!

RailUK Forums

Mintona · 23 Jul 2017

welshpax said:
It's ok, i get this all the time, UBI does get this reaction, it scares people and quite rightly so. It is far from a totalitarian state, but, imagine you didn't have to go to work each day, but were given an income so you could then spend your time doing good in the world.

It may seem bizarre now, but, most disruptive things are, imagine the reaction you would have had in the 1700's if you told them in 100 years people would be moving about on machines that could move at great speeds powered by a great force called steam. You would have had the same reaction as we are having now.

Some people get paid to look at what's going to happen in the near future, my job is to look at what is going to happen in the next 30-50 years and try and make that a reality

Could you not, please, because the future sounds ****ing dreadful.

Dave1987 · 23 Jul 2017

welshpax said:
It all comes down to changing peoples behaviours and perceptions of the world. I recently had a conversation with someone about self driving taxis, research points to the fact that people will be weary to to use them, so how do we over come that? Well you incentivise people to use them by making them 50% cheaper than a taxi driven by humans. The same will apply in other areas....an example being your mobile phone, your phone company can track your movements by the way it registers on the network as you move from cell to cell, they could in theory use that data to know that you pass a Mcdonalds every day on the way to work and push offers to your phone when you walk past.

I certainly don't have a rose tinted view on the world, in fact my job is to be as sceptable as possible regarding new technology and to accept failure, however, if people would only take a look around them and see what has already been automated they would be surprised, from the self service tills at the supermarket through to banking, when you click on that chat box on a website to speak to a customer service agent, chances are that is AI answering your questions.

Data is more valuable than gold and there is a huge amount generated, that nectar or clubcard card in your pocket is logging everything you are buying, looking at amazon or ebay for something? then this is generating data. Someday soon, whether we like it or not will be used to service or sell to us in someway.

Anyway, this is going way off topic, maybe we should start a new thread in another part of the forum so I can share some of the things that are happening in the world outside of railways.

I promise to stop posting in this thread now as I dont want to hijack it

Well funnily enough I don't use any of those. If I'm in a supermarket I always head to the manned tills if I can. If I visit my bank I go to the cashier. And I never use the "chat" box that appears on websites, always close it down when the damn things pop up annoyingly. I most certainly do agree that data is extremely valuable to companies. But the thought of my mobile device constantly going off with alerts on advertising etc would drive me insane and just make me turn off my mobile device. If to get information I might find useful for my journey means I would be bombarded with advertising from companies then I would rather not have it at all. I get spammed enough as it is now even with how little I give out my email address currently.

Dave1987 · 23 Jul 2017

Mintona said:
Could you not, please, because the future sounds ****ing dreadful.

Quite agree!

Dave1987 · 23 Jul 2017

SPADTrap said:
You had me convinced as someone who might know what they were talking about right up until you said '..get paid for nothing' or having 'basic needs covered by the government' of the day!

I'd say your speaker is almost certainly correct and like Nick Abbot on LBC said, that is something no politician is willing to talk about...funny that!

Because they have no idea how to pay for it.....

3141 · 23 Jul 2017

Most flights go from one airport and end at another. The faulty oven (in post no. 1) is a feature of the whole flight. There are 200 passengers, maybe all booked in advance, and it’s relatively straightforward to send them a message. The OP received the message five hours before the flight was due to take off. But for most passengers, information that the oven on that plane was out of action could just as usefully have been provided at the terminal.

Most trains have several calling points, they form several services during the day, passengers join and leave frequently, there may be hundreds of them on one trip and thousands over a period of several hours on the series of diagrams the train covers. To get the message to all of them in advance of their journey will require it to be repeated several times. Who is going to do this? There is certainly a cost. Some passengers may receive it well in advance of setting out from home or office, but others won’t, and there’ll be complaints that the railway should have told them sooner/later/by a different method….And some won’t receive it all, at least until it becomes compulsory for us all to be wired in.

For most railway passengers, information displayed and announced at the station is going to be sufficient, and would be an efficient and economical way of providing it. Doing all the things that can be done through smartphones sounds to me like doing it because it’s possible and clever and shows how up-to-date you are, but may not be sensible or necessary.

It’s fascinating when people like welshpaxtell you all the remarkable things that are now being developed and are likely to be rolled out in ten or twenty years’ time, but there are social and economic implications and it’s too easy for innovators to skate over them and say that will be for someone else to sort out. It’s often pointed out that today people under 35 are less well off (relatively) than their parents were at the same age, fewer of them are able to buy their own home, increasingly they’re lumbered with student debts, and so on. “Tut, tut,” we say, “It’s terrible, somebody should do something about it all.” But when the proponents of AI tell us that 90% of the population are going to be rendered unnecessary, it’s surprising how many people seem to welcome the march of “progress”.

AndrewE · 24 Jul 2017

welshpax said:
...the next generation who reach a mature age will have access as they have come through the technology revolution.

I am not talking about this happening today or tomorrow, but maybe within 10 years when a lot of retired folk who are in their mid 50's now are fully up to speed with technology.

...Only problems are that people in their mid-50s now aren't going to have much retirement - or much money either.

Also no jobs = no income (or income tax paid.) If we go on as we are now with the companies running the economy moving all their profits around to ensure that they pay no taxes then govt will be even less able to fund important things like subsistence and health than they claim they are now.

Bletchleyite · 24 Jul 2017

3141 said:
But when the proponents of AI tell us that 90% of the population are going to be rendered unnecessary, its surprising how many people seem to welcome the march of progress.

That's because there are also optimistic views on how people could develop themselves in a world where work was much less necessary.

Most people presently work something in the order of 5 days out of 7. That's an arbitrary figure that came about years ago. What if it was 3, 2, or even 1? What could people do with that time, funded by profits made by the AI systems/automation in its own right?

AndrewE · 24 Jul 2017

Bletchleyite said:
What if it was 3, 2, or even 1? What could people do with that time, funded by profits made by the AI systems/automation in its own right?

We were promised this about 40 years ago... Unfortunately my post above applies!

DarloRich · 24 Jul 2017

Off course there needs to be the use of as many communication channels as possible to share information and that use needs to get better. Personally I don't want my in box or phone jammed up with texts or emails telling me one toilet on my Virgin train isnt working or the train is the wrong way around. Frankly I don't care. I also don't really care if the train is a few minutes late. I do care if the service is up the spout and i have to consider an alternative routing.

AndrewE said:
Definitely. I have lost count of the number of times that I have discovered that I know more about what is going on than staff on stations (by looking at realtime trains - and here, of course.)

ah the spottery expert which i am sure is so beloved of station staff

AndrewE said:
It seriously embarrasses them and makes them more defensive... then aggressive. A real shame, and something that needs to be addressed. A proper risk assessment would acknowledge that the public cannot stand being deceived and front-line staff subsequently bear the brunt of passengers' reactions.

Such stuff - who is being decieved and in what manner?

AndrewE said:
I don't want a text, when I am on the platform I want the platform display screens to tell me that the train is the wrong way round, or that my train - due now - is still stationary and half an hour away. I don't want "5 minutes late" to be altered every 5 mins with a 5-minute increment. If it is going to be at least half an hour arriving I want to be able to go for a coffee or whatever is appropriate.

And how will this information be divined? A train has stopped out of course in the middle of no where. How will the TOC tell you, immediately, how long that delay will be? :roll:

Bletchleyite · 24 Jul 2017

DarloRich said:
And how will this information be divined? A train has stopped out of course in the middle of no where. How will the TOC tell you, immediately, how long that delay will be? :roll:

The existing PIS actually handles that. If a delay is unknown because the train isn't moving (and so is increasing at a rate of one minute of delay per minute) it just shows "Delayed". It wouldn't be much of a step to explain to passengers who don't know that distinction what it means.

Mintona · 24 Jul 2017

Bletchleyite said:
That's because there are also optimistic views on how people could develop themselves in a world where work was much less necessary.

Most people presently work something in the order of 5 days out of 7. That's an arbitrary figure that came about years ago. What if it was 3, 2, or even 1? What could people do with that time, funded by profits made by the AI systems/automation in its own right?

Starve probably. Going by the amount given to the Finns, literally nothing at all as that figure is not even enough to pay the mortgage. So I imagine live on the streets with no way of paying for food, heating or clothes. Sounds great. Sounds like the utopian dream.

AndrewE · 24 Jul 2017

DarloRich said:
ah the spottery expert which i am sure is so beloved of station staff
l:

Actually about 30 years on the railway, starting with a year at the bottom on a big station, then 6 yrs in ops (Train Planning), going on to an internal-consultancy type role - which meant working with, learning from and advising the people running most departments....

Which is why I have a fair idea what was possible 10 years ago and am frustrated by the continuous cock-ups now - and being told by the people who currently think they are running the railway that "It's not possible!"

...how will this information be divined? A train has stopped out of course in the middle of no where

but if it is 20 minutes running time away then 5 minutes late, increases every 5 mins is never going to be right. "Delayed at Stafford" would be more use to most people.

3141 · 24 Jul 2017

Bletchleyite said:
That's because there are also optimistic views on how people could develop themselves in a world where work was much less necessary.

Most people presently work something in the order of 5 days out of 7. That's an arbitrary figure that came about years ago. What if it was 3, 2, or even 1? What could people do with that time, funded by profits made by the AI systems/automation in its own right?

Competition, both domestically and internationally, will require margins to be reduced and lead to lower profits. People won't be convinced that they should pay a higher price for goods or services operated by AI because that will generate higher profits that produce the basic income that maybe enables them to buy the goods or services....

Possibly, in the long run, which probably means at least two generations, the world you optimistically describe may develop, but the earlier effects of AI to the extent currently foreseen are going to be devastating for many. And there will be more effects not currently foreseen. AI will have opinions about all of this as well.

What would people do with that extra time?

AndrewE said:
We were promised this about 40 years ago... Unfortunately my post above applies!

Or even longer ago. When I was doing a Postgraduate Certificate in Education course in 1961-62 we spent a lot of time discussing the implications of what was then called "automation", and the kind of education that would be appropriate in the new circumstances. If people needed to work for only a couple of days a week, it was assumed they'd spend the rest of the time in cultural pursuits or doing useful voluntary work. What actually happened was that many jobs disappeared entirely (not just because of automation), and a substantial number of the people who still had a job worked longer hours than before. The ones who no longer had a job found it hard to get one and their lower income restricted the interesting leisure pursuits they could take up.

I expect the effects of AI not to be that everyone has more spare time after working just one or two days a week, but that most people will have no paid occupation and a limited income.

But bringing it back to railways, that will mean much less travel and no need for capacity enhancements!

adamello · 24 Jul 2017

DarloRich said:
ah the spottery expert which i am sure is so beloved of station staff

at one point I worked with a public transport operator, and one of the worst things was when a customer wanted information, and you could only say "I don't know"

if someone advised me - oh I have seen on the companies twitter the previous was held for half an hour due to an engine issue, then thats useful information that helps me inform others and manage expectations - ie good customer service.

I certainly wouldn't consider them an inconvenient know it all like your suggesting

DarloRich · 24 Jul 2017

AndrewE said:
Actually about 30 years on the railway, starting with a year at the bottom on a big station, then 6 yrs in ops (Train Planning), going on to an internal-consultancy type role - which meant working with, learning from and advising the people running most departments....

Which is why I have a fair idea what was possible 10 years ago and am frustrated by the continuous cock-ups now - and being told by the people who currently think they are running the railway that "It's not possible!"

I was teasing . :roll:

So, using your obvious expertise, how do we inform the customer, immediately and precisely, how and why their train has stopped out of course and how long the delay will be? I do not think it can be done.

btw - I wish I was running the railway.

AndrewE said:
but if it is 20 minutes running time away then 5 minutes late, increases every 5 mins is never going to be right. "Delayed at Stafford" would be more use to most people.

Indeed - but is that not a symptom of moving to an automatic system and reducing the human presence on stations and the number of human announcements.

AndrewE · 24 Jul 2017

DarloRich said:
So, using your obvious expertise, how do we inform the customer, immediately and precisely, how and why their train has stopped out of course and how long the delay will be? I do not think it can be done.

I don't think we should. Too much info is a curse, as has been said upthread. I want it kept simple enough to be clear (and to work reliably) but to be both accurate and informative. Departure boards will do most of what we need: In the normal course of late running "x minutes late" is fine, but when a train fails then "Delayed at Station Y", or "near Z" tells people who know the railway or the geography a) that it is not moving and b) that it will be the normal running time before it does arrive (if and when it does get going.) "Delayed by a fatality" wouldn't be needed as in that case it wouldn't be coming at all - so "Cancelled"

AngusH · 24 Jul 2017

With respect to delays, I think it might be worth experimenting with delay forecasting using machine learning and data analysis.

If events could be categorised by factor (pantograph failure, OLE down, cow on line, passenger alarm pulled, etc) and location it might be possible to train a computer to predict how long a new delay is based on past delays with the same factors and types of locations.

Yes, a knowledgable person could probably do a better job; if they have the time and don't have something else to do (like solve the problem), but it might be an improvement over simple position estimates.

Also maybe using ranges of minutes, e.g (4-10 minutes late) and removing precision that may be inaccurate?

jon0844 · 24 Jul 2017

SPADTrap said:
Who trains the AI when the AI have all the jobs thus stopping people training in law/surgery in the first place, as there are no jobs?

All the 'big data' being collected every day just keeps getting fed in to make the systems ever more intelligent.

Then I assume at one point they take over the world and kill all humans as being irrelevant. A bit like bus drivers that prefer to run without passengers.

jon0844 · 24 Jul 2017

ComUtoR said:
You also need to deal with how faults etc are dealt with locally. If I found a toilet was locked out of use I wouldn't report it. If I locked one out then its debatable when I would report it. I know I wouldn't report it instantly that's for sure. Therefore you would still have a situation where there is a toilet locked out and passengers turn up with a faulty unit. How would you deal with that ?

On a modern connected train, I'd expect that once you locked a toilet OOU, it could report that fact automatically.

It could be so dynamic that if you or someone else unlocked it later, that too would be sent to control and any messages would disappear.

I don't know how much information a modern train logs and senses, but you could even have trains monitoring the temperature in each carriage. If it fell outside a certain threshold, it could not only notify a fitter but potentially relay information to the public to move to another carriage (most people won't know a problem with HVAC or a PA system fault is likely isolated to one coach, not the entire train).

These things do of course need to be planned for during procurement. The upside is that it means you don't need to worry about reporting something at all.

jon0844 · 24 Jul 2017

Bletchleyite said:
The existing PIS actually handles that. If a delay is unknown because the train isn't moving (and so is increasing at a rate of one minute of delay per minute) it just shows "Delayed". It wouldn't be much of a step to explain to passengers who don't know that distinction what it means.

When I watch the screen for a delayed train on a platform, it does strike me that the software could be quite easily tweaked to give more information that's already there.

Once a train is known not to be moving, having not reached the next track circuit, and Delayed appears, the scrolling message could have additional information appended to say something like 'This train is currently not moving' or actually say where it currently is.

This allows people to make informed decisions of their own. Go and grab a coffee, abort the journey and go later or whatever.

When it says Delayed, you don't know where it is. Is it delayed at the station just before, or right back near its origin - where even at full line speed and no stops, it's going to be half an hour or more.

Manual announcements can give more info, but not all stations are staffed and it's those smaller stations where people are going to be more likely left confused and maybe standing on an open platform with little shelter or seating facilities, or anywhere to get a drink etc.

As such, people in these locations are going to get unnecessarily frustrated and have a bad taste in the mouth about the train company, even if the fault is out of their control.

Andrewlong · 24 Jul 2017

How about a railway loyalty card where you collect points for making journeys. To register the the scheme, you provide your email address and/or mobile number - other organisations can do it - it cannot be that hard. Having said that in 2017, we are still using bits of card as tickets. I came back by Eurotunnel today. Seamless. No paper tickets or e-tickets required. Car registration details are the key.

But link buying a ticket to your loyalty scheme and bingo. Need someone with a bit of vision. Even my local bus company takes contactless cards for journeys!

Dave1987 · 24 Jul 2017

Andrewlong said:
How about a railway loyalty card where you collect points for making journeys. To register the the scheme, you provide your email address and/or mobile number - other organisations can do it - it cannot be that hard. Having said that in 2017, we are still using bits of card as tickets. I came back by Eurotunnel today. Seamless. No paper tickets or e-tickets required. Car registration details are the key.

But link buying a ticket to your loyalty scheme and bingo. Need someone with a bit of vision. Even my local bus company takes contactless cards for journeys!

But you are getting to a stage where people don't want to hand out their details to companies because they know they will be spammed continuously with advertising. I don't want to give companies details of my shopping habits or how often I use my local bus and what routes I travel on because I know they will use that data to spam me with messages trying to persuade me to spend more money with them. So I use cash all the time. They know from their sales how many people are traveling or buying stuff but they don't have my details to know my exact shopping or travel habits. Since I stopped giving out my email address whenever I could, I only a small amount of spam emails.

jon0844 · 24 Jul 2017

Andrewlong said:
How about a railway loyalty card where you collect points for making journeys. To register the the scheme, you provide your email address and/or mobile number - other organisations can do it - it cannot be that hard. Having said that in 2017, we are still using bits of card as tickets. I came back by Eurotunnel today. Seamless. No paper tickets or e-tickets required. Car registration details are the key.

But link buying a ticket to your loyalty scheme and bingo. Need someone with a bit of vision. Even my local bus company takes contactless cards for journeys!

Smartcards for travel should allow that, but would need to work everywhere to be effective, yet a recently linked article explained very well that each TOC wants to protect its own data fiercely. Hence, each one issues its own card and thus far, you can't use one ITSO compliant card from one TOC on another TOC using ITSO compliant cards!

I expect a fair few people already have some sort of account though, either with a TOC or something like trainline.com

There's plenty of opportunity to inform those who want to be notified (and also for those who want to be anonymous to remain so).

jon0844 · 24 Jul 2017

Dave1987 said:
But you are getting to a stage where people don't want to hand out their details to companies because they know they will be spammed continuously with advertising.

You've said this many times and of course it's true in many cases, but it doesn't have to be.

I don't get junk from Tesco, and while I am not a big shopper there anymore, I've never had any issues with the Clubcard loyalty scheme. It offers many benefits (beyond discounts) and I would never not use an online service for fear of getting spammed.

For one thing, Google (of which I use numerous services for free, in return for providing valuable tracking/usage data) has very good spam protection. I see barely any spam, despite having had the same email address since the early 2000s and it being known by just about everyone (I cannot possibly know how many databases it is on, as well as the risk of handing out business cards with it on).

In any case, any marketing material aimed at me that is more relevant because a computer knows a lot about me is favourable to totally irrelevant spam. That's why the only spam I tend to get is the obvious scam emails telling me I can claim money, have won a gift card/lottery and so on.

Those emails are not because you signed up to a TOC to get train information.

infobleep · 24 Jul 2017

ComUtoR said:
Its a simple question and one that needs to be addressed. Especially with the OP's analogy posted. Contacting passengers works well on the airlines because they have provided contact details and there is ample time to contact passengers as flights are generally prepared for service.

With the sheer volume of people who are very much turn up and travel passengers there is no way to contact them directly. Should a passenger who pays for a walk up fare supply their contact details ?

You also need to deal with how faults etc are dealt with locally. If I found a toilet was locked out of use I wouldn't report it. If I locked one out then its debatable when I would report it. I know I wouldn't report it instantly that's for sure. Therefore you would still have a situation where there is a toilet locked out and passengers turn up with a faulty unit. How would you deal with that ?

How also would you then know which passengers are on that unit or would be on that unit. Passengers do not declare which services they choose to board. Advance tickets have the benefit of knowing which passengers are potentially on which unit.

I could see an option where faults are put into a globally accessible system so passengers can check in advance based on if their own decision to check but you still need that information fed into it by someone and that system needs to also know which units are on which services.

Everything comes at a price and needs to be evaluated in terms of how many people will benefit. Should an entire system be created purely to benefit small minority of people but then increase the ticket price of everyone ?

There is a constant demand to reduce ticket prices and reduce the insane cost of the railways. All these demands for Smart ticketing, tables, wifi, and improved PIS, CIS and god knows what else the passengers are demanding is driving the costs higher and higher. Ask yourself, Is this something you would pay for ? Would you pay a subscription or a additional premium on your ticket for this service ? Why should the cost be added to everyone just for the sake of a few people ?

I take your point but in terms of units on which services, that should be known, as milage based contracts with rolling stock companies mean TOCs need to know what rolling does unit does what.

infobleep · 24 Jul 2017

3141 said:
Competition, both domestically and internationally, will require margins to be reduced and lead to lower profits. People won't be convinced that they should pay a higher price for goods or services operated by AI because that will generate higher profits that produce the basic income that maybe enables them to buy the goods or services....

Possibly, in the long run, which probably means at least two generations, the world you optimistically describe may develop, but the earlier effects of AI to the extent currently foreseen are going to be devastating for many. And there will be more effects not currently foreseen. AI will have opinions about all of this as well.

What would people do with that extra time?

Or even longer ago. When I was doing a Postgraduate Certificate in Education course in 1961-62 we spent a lot of time discussing the implications of what was then called "automation", and the kind of education that would be appropriate in the new circumstances. If people needed to work for only a couple of days a week, it was assumed they'd spend the rest of the time in cultural pursuits or doing useful voluntary work. What actually happened was that many jobs disappeared entirely (not just because of automation), and a substantial number of the people who still had a job worked longer hours than before. The ones who no longer had a job found it hard to get one and their lower income restricted the interesting leisure pursuits they could take up.

I expect the effects of AI not to be that everyone has more spare time after working just one or two days a week, but that most people will have no paid occupation and a limited income.

But bringing it back to railways, that will mean much less travel and no need for capacity enhancements!

That might solve the overcrowding issues, so could be a positive thing

DarloRich · 24 Jul 2017

AndrewE said:
I don't think we should. Too much info is a curse, as has been said upthread. I want it kept simple enough to be clear (and to work reliably) but to be both accurate and informative. Departure boards will do most of what we need: In the normal course of late running "x minutes late" is fine, but when a train fails then "Delayed at Station Y", or "near Z" tells people who know the railway or the geography a) that it is not moving and b) that it will be the normal running time before it does arrive (if and when it does get going.) "Delayed by a fatality" wouldn't be needed as in that case it wouldn't be coming at all - so "Cancelled"

I don't disagree - however is the problem not reliance on the current automatic system linked to the signaling system?

sheff1 · 24 Jul 2017

Dave1987 said:
But you are getting to a stage where people don't want to hand out their details to companies because they know they will be spammed continuously with advertising.

I give my details to a small number of reputable companies and receive benefits in return (points towards hotel stays, discounts on services etc etc). I receive occasional emails from them but very very rarely anything which could be called spam.

I used to receive rewards from East Coast but, of course, that was stopped when Virgin took over. I then made the mistake of using VTEC to book a ticket as they were offering free wifi. I got more irrelevant spam type emails from them in the following 3 days than I had received from all the other companies I am registered with over probably the previous 6 months. Needless to say emails from VTEC were quickly blocked.

So, in my experience - stick to reputable companies and avoid the shysters and there are no downsides, only advantages.

ComUtoR · 25 Jul 2017

The problem isn't that the information isn't tracked but its how each of these systems talk to each other and who controls the input. A lot of information is 'known' but not shared. Our resources do not need to check unit diagrams but they regularly access the crew diagrams. Engineering log the faults but they aren't passed on to customer information. etc etc.

Getting things from what happens on the ground then transferred up the chain and back down to the passengers and translated in a digestible format is what needs to be resolved.

In reality, what specifically affects the passengers decision to travel or not and what information is relevant to their journey.

Passenger information: the railway needs to catch up

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