ATW to stop selling railcard discounts on-board

gareth950 · 29 Jul 2017

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/arriva-trains-wales-clamping-down-13390885

Wales Online said:
Arriva Trains Wales are clamping down on discounted on board ticket sales

The rail firm said the rules had always been in place but now they would be enforced

ATW are to clamp down on the sale of discounted tickets on trains from next week.

At the moment those travelling from stations where tickets are sold can still get cheap ones on board – for example using a young person’s rail card.

But as of next week they will no longer be able to do this and instead they will have to pay full price.

The rail firm said the rules had always been in place but now they would be enforced.

“There are national rules around railcards, where you can and cannot get the discount from,” a source said.

“If you go past a booking office or ticket machine you can’t get the railcard discount on the train.

“The exception is Disabled Railcards and these discounts are given regardless.”

The source said ticket inspectors would not be issuing fines – that was the role of the enforcement department.

Arriva Trains Wales director Gareth Thomas said: “We’re trying to raise awareness about the National Rail conditions of travel to enable our passengers to fully understand how and where they can buy their tickets.

“We appreciate the sensitivities around this, which is why we’re trying to make the rules clearer, in line with other train operators.

“We have invested heavily in ticket-buying facilities as part of our £2.8m investment in the network this year and the recent passenger survey showed a 7% increase in passenger satisfaction in the availability of ticket-buying facilities at stations.”

Passenger group Railfuture Wales feared the change would “not encourage people to use the service”.

Chairman Peter Kingsbury said: “Whilst we would encourage people to buy tickets in advance either at the station ticket office, ticket machine or through Arriva’s app, this is not always possible, especially during off-peak times.

“This change will only lead to more passenger annoyance, confusion and distrust, which could ultimately lead to fewer journeys being made by train.

Whilst we understand Arriva Train Wales wanting to protect their revenues by encouraging tickets to be bought in advance to avoid fare-dodging this move discriminates against passengers who either want to or have no option but to pay by cash as well as those who only just make the train and therefore don’t have time to buy in advance.”

Arriva insisted passengers who could not pay by debit card would still be able to get a discount.

“We would encourage Arriva to continue to adopt a ‘common sense’ approach to selling tickets on board,” Mr Kingsbury said.

The key to this is that statement I have highlighted - "passengers who could not pay by debit card would still be able to get a discount".

How are ATW going to prove a passenger cannot pay by debit card, as opposed to not wanting to pay by debit card and preferring to pay by cash? Start searching passengers and their bags? (obviously they don't have the power to do this)

I don't agree with this policy - far too many of ATW's TVM's are still very unreliable - numerous times I've purchased tickets from a card only TVM at an unstaffed station, for the tickets not to print at all, or for the wrong tickets to print, resulting in me having to visit Cardiff Central ticket office to sort it out when I really haven't had time. I also prefer to pay by cash for short journeys. As a result, I always prefer to buy on the train, with my railcard, using cash.

Interestingly ATWs own 'Buy Before You Board' awareness page makes no mention of how the rules apply to you if you are travelling from an unstaffed station, with a card only TVM, and are paying by cash with a railcard.

RailUK Forums

yorkie · 30 Jul 2017

Cash is an accepted payment method, and ATW need to accept this.

They also must accept Rail Travel Vouchers.

Passenger group Railfuture Wales feared the change would “not encourage people to use the service”.

I believe this is consistent with ATW's priorities; ATW appear to have no desire to encourage people to use the service. If anything, I'd say ATW attempt to deter people from using their trains, and use alternative modes of transport instead, at least that's the perception I get based on my experiences with them.

Blindtraveler · 30 Jul 2017

I would hope that a passenger boarding and asking for a ticket regardless of if said station had a TVM would be offered discount if the guard first checked they were paying cash?

Obviously unstaffed TVM-less stations are unaffected and I am personally glad they mention DSB railcard holders as many TOCs fail to point this out in their 'We are doing a ticketing crackdown' press material.

gareth950 · 30 Jul 2017

ATW still insisting on twitter it is the passengers responsibility to actively seek out the guard when they board the train to buy a ticket if paying by cash with a railcard, even on services that are severly overcrowded to the point where it is impossible to move through the train.

If not possible to buy a ticket using cash with a railcard discount either at the station or on the train, pax will be subject to a penalty if trying to buy with cash at their destination.

So ATW want to actively discourage pax from paying by cash it seems. It's essentially discriminating against pax paying by cash on the railway in Wales.
If this policy is going to be enforced so rigoursly then ALL TVMs in Wales need to accept cash without question.

najaB · 30 Jul 2017

gareth950 said:
The key to this is that statement I have highlighted...

To be honest, I'm more concerned by this statement from the chairman of Railfuture Wales:

Peter Kingsbury said:
...as well as those who only just make the train and therefore don’t have time to buy in advance...

Trying to excuse people jumping on the train without a ticket isn't good form in my eyes.

Blindtraveler · 30 Jul 2017

Agreed with that one.

gareth950 · 30 Jul 2017

The point to all this is that ATW insist that the full range of ticket buying options are available to passengers before they board a train, but as all of their TVMs at unstaffed stations are card only, this is not the case as you cannot buy a ticket using cash if this is your preferred or only payment method.

It's bullying and intimidating people into not using cash to pay for tickets in Wales, plain and simple.

najaB · 30 Jul 2017

gareth950 said:
It's bullying and intimidating people into not using cash to pay for tickets in Wales, plain and simple.

I'm sorry, but I don't follow. They've said that people who could not buy using a card-only TVM will continue to be able to purchase on board. So if I give the conductor cash or a RTV (s)he'll sell me a discounted ticket. If I hand over a card then the onus is on me to explain why I wasn't able to use it to buy before boarding.

gareth950 · 30 Jul 2017

najaB said:
I'm sorry, but I don't follow. They've said that people who could not buy using a card-only TVM will continue to be able to purchase on board. So if I give the conductor cash or a RTV (s)he'll sell me a discounted ticket. If I hand over a card then the onus is on me to explain why I wasn't able to use it to buy before boarding.

If the service is too overcrowded for the guard to get through the train?

Or if the guard doesn't come round, is it in a railway byelaw that I must knock on the rear cab to buy a ticket? Previous advice stated on this forum has said no I don't have to.

Merseysider · 30 Jul 2017

gareth950 said:
If the service is too overcrowded for the guard to get through the train?

Or if the guard doesn't come round, is it in a railway byelaw that I must knock on the rear cab to buy a ticket? Previous advice stated on this forum has said no I don't have to.

Been done to death more times than I could care to count.

No.

Railcard discounts are available on board to those who were willing but unable to pay before boarding. Railcard discounts are still available at the destination if there's been no opportunity to pay by then.

Gareth Marston · 30 Jul 2017

najaB said:
I'm sorry, but I don't follow. They've said that people who could not buy using a card-only TVM will continue to be able to purchase on board. So if I give the conductor cash or a RTV (s)he'll sell me a discounted ticket. If I hand over a card then the onus is on me to explain why I wasn't able to use it to buy before boarding.

Spot on najaB your understanding is the same as the guidance that's been given to staff.

Station has a card only TVM then railcard discounts can be purchased with cash off the conductor.

Walk past an open booking office or station with cash and card TVM then no discount will be given if cash is offered

Gareth Marston · 30 Jul 2017

najaB said:
To be honest, I'm more concerned by this statement from the chairman of Railfuture Wales:Trying to excuse people jumping on the train without a ticket isn't good form in my eyes.

Encouraging people to turn up late is not good as they run the risk of missing the train for start and then there the safety element. We had a near miss a couple of weeks ago when a lady run up the steps and tried to pres the door controls as the train was accelerating away she tripped up on the platform and went into the side of the train fortunately with her arm out and bounced back onto the platform without injury.

I'm also aware of an RTA near the station involving a late running passenger.

gareth950 · 30 Jul 2017

Gareth Marston said:
Spot on najaB your understanding is the same as the guidance that's been given to staff.

Station has a card only TVM then railcard discounts can be purchased with cash off the conductor.

Walk past an open booking office or station with cash and card TVM then no discount will be given if cash is offered

What advice has been given to staff (inc. RPIs) at gate lines, when someone presents themselves wanting to buy a ticket with a railcard discount using cash, with the defence of 'the guard did not come through the train' or 'the train was too overcrowded for the guard to come through the train to sell a ticket'?

I appreciate that Merseysider has answered this Q, saying that you are still able to buy a railcard ticket using cash at your destination if no opportunity to buy a ticket has arisen before then, but i'd be interested to know what ATW has told staff is the new policy.

Gareth Marston · 30 Jul 2017

gareth950 said:
What advice has been given to staff (inc. RPIs) at gate lines, when someone presents themselves wanting to buy a ticket with a railcard discount using cash, with the defence of 'the guard did not come through the train' or 'the train was too overcrowded for the guard to come through the train to sell a ticket'?

I appreciate that Merseysider has answered this Q, saying that you are still able to buy a railcard ticket using cash at your destination if no opportunity to buy a ticket has arisen before then, but i'd be interested to know what ATW has told staff is the new policy.

Where that scenario actually happens then it should be obvious to barrier staff due to volume of passengers alighting and there no doubt being other passengers in the same position.

Clearly if half a dozen people appear off a train and you come out with a story about the train being to busy......
If a conductor can't sell tickets due to a fault on the machine etc they should be informing control and the message getting to barrier staff.

Starmill · 30 Jul 2017

Another random non-announcement, just as it was when Southeastern did it.

scrapy · 31 Jul 2017

Yes Northern tried similar when Arriva took over, lasted about a week and I'd now say over 90% will sell an off peak or railcard discounted ticket to someone who has passed an opportunity to purchase. It's not worth the hassle to them and given that guards are fighting for their jobs they don't want to end up in confrontation with passengers.

The big problem is manager's come up with statements threatening those who don't buy tickets. They then don't back up staff who enforce this then rely on agency staff to catch passengers out.

Yew · 31 Jul 2017

Sounds like they've hired some managers from a London TOC who don't know they lay of the land outside of London...

gareth950 · 1 Aug 2017

Reports on social media today of ATW guards / conductors refusing to give railcard discounts and sell off-peak tickets to passengers paying by cash, who have started their journeys at stations with card only TVMs.

Starmill · 1 Aug 2017

I did notice today on Twitter that ATW were absolutely insisting to everyone that they must seek out the conductor on the train or "you may face a fine".

Merseysider · 1 Aug 2017

Absolute nonsense.

I'll be sure to make my entire family hunt down and pester the conductor for a ticket immediately after boarding, the next trip we go on

It's ridiculous.

Sprinter153 · 1 Aug 2017

As someone else has said, I give it a week. It will take one discussion with a manager like this...

"So, Derek, why did a customer kick you sixteen times up the bottom, resulting in a large delay minute bill and you being off sick for a week?"
"I charged the full fare to someone who walked past the ticket office."

...and then it'll quietly die.

PHILIPE · 1 Aug 2017

Starmill said:
I did notice today on Twitter that ATW were absolutely insisting to everyone that they must seek out the conductor on the train or "you may face a fine".

And when ATW were asked as to how passengers could do that if the train was wedged and impossible to reach the conductor or the conductor couldn't get through, they avoided giving an answer.

Gareth Marston · 2 Aug 2017

I think we need to look at whats driving this and there are multiple factors at play.

There is undoubtedly a problem with ticket less travel across the ATW network and a deep ingrained culture of only buying when challenged. I see this here in Newtown every day, I have heard through the open office door with no queue in the office conversations along the line of "you can buy the tickets on board if the conductors comes round". People making no attempt to purchase when booking offices are open are common on the network.

The Avantix replacements are part of the problem too. The £ taken by conductors is seriously down and what tickets they do issue are time consuming and prevent the Conductors doing other duty's. Were pretty sure that this will impact through as reduced footfall on the Cambrian Coast this year, the Conductors have no chance with anything but small numbers on the Coast due to the close spaces between stations.

Most deliberate fare dodgers or accidental fare dodgers will be traveling a short distance anyway and the anytime day return or single is what they would be purchasing anyway and there unlikely to have railcard. So this policy doesn't really effect them, they'll cough up the full whack if challenged as before.

However are we hoping that with more folk "buying before they board" that the Conductors then have time to deal with them?

Llanigraham · 2 Aug 2017

Gareth, I've been on the trains locally recently that have had 2 conductors doing fares. I've also noted that the ticket machine at Caersws is getting a lot more use since there has been the audible message broadcast.

221129 · 2 Aug 2017

I'm just glad that I won't have this problem on Atw anytime soon. It does seem poorly implemented and very customer unfriendly. Thankfully ticket office or no i don't need a ticket so Not an issue for me!

Clip · 2 Aug 2017

Gareth Marston said:
I think we need to look at whats driving this and there are multiple factors at play.

There is undoubtedly a problem with ticket less travel across the ATW network and a deep ingrained culture of only buying when challenged. I see this here in Newtown every day, I have heard through the open office door with no queue in the office conversations along the line of "you can buy the tickets on board if the conductors comes round". People making no attempt to purchase when booking offices are open are common on the network.

The Avantix replacements are part of the problem too. The £ taken by conductors is seriously down and what tickets they do issue are time consuming and prevent the Conductors doing other duty's. Were pretty sure that this will impact through as reduced footfall on the Cambrian Coast this year, the Conductors have no chance with anything but small numbers on the Coast due to the close spaces between stations.

Most deliberate fare dodgers or accidental fare dodgers will be traveling a short distance anyway and the anytime day return or single is what they would be purchasing anyway and there unlikely to have railcard. So this policy doesn't really effect them, they'll cough up the full whack if challenged as before.

However are we hoping that with more folk "buying before they board" that the Conductors then have time to deal with them?

Gareth you are going to have to stop making sensible points on this forum - especially towards those who pretty much never read the full story.

gareth950 · 2 Aug 2017

Deleted

Gareth Marston · 2 Aug 2017

Llanigraham said:
Gareth, I've been on the trains locally recently that have had 2 conductors doing fares. I've also noted that the ticket machine at Caersws is getting a lot more use since there has been the audible message broadcast.

To be fair the number of arrivals from Caersws where the doors don't open for a minute or two and then the Conductor appears with a foot plus of paper dangling and still printing has gone down now

Gareth Marston · 2 Aug 2017

Clip said:
Gareth you are going to have to stop making sensible points on this forum - especially towards those who pretty much never read the full story.

Collecting all revenue due costs to do a point that's not entirely understood at Daft or with some TOC management. My gut feeling is that the Avantix replacement cock up revenue loss has been a large driver behind this and management are hoping they can cajole/frighten/persuade enough folk to not board without tickets so that Conductors can check tickets rather than be a snails pace ticket seller.

yorkie · 2 Aug 2017

Gareth Marston said:
...I have heard through the open office door with no queue in the office conversations along the line of "you can buy the tickets on board if the conductors comes round". People making no attempt to purchase when booking offices are open are common on the network....

They should stop targeting people whose only have a machine (that won't accept all valid payment methods and won't sell the full range of fares) and target people who just ignore open booking offices, and not invent rules that don't exist.

I see they're getting a bit of a backlash for their overzealous policy, which is good as they brought it on themselves. If they had been sensible about it, they would have had support from most people.

ATW to stop selling railcard discounts on-board

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