South Wales 'Metro' updates

Envoy · 2 Aug 2017

It seems to me that Cardiff Council - with their deals with Rightacres, are making a complete hash of things around the Central Station. The ugly tall buildings proposed between the Central Station & St.Mary Street will just create strong winds in areas of high pedestrian usage. They will also cast newly created narrow streets into shade for much of the time. They will also impact upon the so called St.Mary Street Conservation zone - much of which will be cast into shadow in the area near The Royal Hotel. I note that in Bath, they built a new shopping area near to the station and it is all relatively low rise with the stonework matching the limestone of the historic centre. It is in harmony with the existing buildings. The same cannot be said for the monstrosities proposed by Rightacres in conjunction with Cardiff’s Planners.

Furthermore, if this new bus/coach station ever comes about under the present plans, it will be enclosed by high buildings, thus creating a pollution problem as the fumes will not be able to disperse.

Goodness knows why BBC Wales needed such a massive building? All they do is produce news programmes with some current affairs - which is about the same as ITV Wales - who make do with one floor of a block near The Senedd. If BBC Wales wanted such a massive building, it is a pity that they did not just purchase the former ITV Wales studios at Culverhouse Cross. Anyway, it leaves very little room for expansion of the Central Station or for dealing with the large crowds coming from the stadium.

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ValleyLines142 · 2 Aug 2017

Envoy said:
Goodness knows why BBC Wales needed such a massive building? All they do is produce news programmes with some current affairs - which is about the same as ITV Wales - who make do with one floor of a block near The Senedd. If BBC Wales wanted such a massive building, it is a pity that they did not just purchase the former ITV Wales studios at Culverhouse Cross. Anyway, it leaves very little room for expansion of the Central Station or for dealing with the large crowds coming from the stadium.

My cousin works for the BBC at the Llandaf site and believe me, it is non stop there and they employ hundreds!

You are obviously not aware of the many departments there.

Llanigraham · 2 Aug 2017

Envoy said:
Goodness knows why BBC Wales needed such a massive building? All they do is produce news programmes with some current affairs - which is about the same as ITV Wales - who make do with one floor of a block near The Senedd. If BBC Wales wanted such a massive building, it is a pity that they did not just purchase the former ITV Wales studios at Culverhouse Cross. Anyway, it leaves very little room for expansion of the Central Station or for dealing with the large crowds coming from the stadium.

That suggests that you don't watch BBC Wales or realise that they also run BBC Radio Wales and BBC Radio Cymru. Perhaps you should check your facts!

Hwnt52 · 2 Aug 2017

DanTrainMan185 said:
My cousin works for the BBC at the Llandaf site and believe me, it is non stop there and they employ hundreds!

You are obviously not aware of the many departments there.

BBC Wales is far more than a producer of local news programmes. In addition to these news programmes it produces a number of hours of entertainment, including sport, for Wales as well as a number of popular programmes for BBC1 including Doctor Who, Casualty and Crimewatch. BBC Wales is also responsible for a considerable amount of Welsh language programming for S4C, the two national radio channels Radio Wales and Radio Cymru, as well as maintaining the BBC Wales Symphony Orchestra. The number of people employed is well over 1000.

Dai Corner · 2 Aug 2017

Hwnt52 said:
BBC Wales is far more than a producer of local news programmes. In addition to these news programmes it produces a number of hours of entertainment, including sport, for Wales as well as a number of popular programmes for BBC1 including Doctor Who, Casualty and Crimewatch. BBC Wales is also responsible for a considerable amount of Welsh language programming for S4C, the two national radio channels Radio Wales and Radio Cymru, as well as maintaining the BBC Wales Symphony Orchestra. The number of people employed is well over 1000.

Getting back to transport, that's another 1000 people who will need to travel into the centre of Cardiff every day and the roads and trains are already full.

gareth950 · 2 Aug 2017

Dai Corner said:
Getting back to transport, that's another 1000 people who will need to travel into the centre of Cardiff every day and the roads and trains are already full.

Not forgetting the BBC will have it's own underground private car park.

Envoy · 3 Aug 2017

Well, I thought that the Orchestra was based down in the Wales Millennium Centre, Dr.Who / Casualty etc. were made in the studios down in the Bay and S4C had its own place in north Cardiff and was moving to Carmarthen. BBC Wales might well produce radio programmes but how much space do they need for a sound booth with one or two people!

Wonder how many of the big shots will be going to work in the new place by public transport?

edwin_m · 3 Aug 2017

Hwnt52 said:
Doctor Who

Perhaps they should have designed a building that's bigger on the inside than it is outside?

daikilo · 3 Aug 2017

gareth950 said:
Not forgetting the BBC will have it's own underground private car park.

Is that in addition to the one floor reserved carpark above the new bus station?

gareth950 · 3 Aug 2017

daikilo said:
Is that in addition to the one floor reserved carpark above the new bus station?

I believe it is, so central Cardiff's roads will become even more congested. I can't see Jamie Owen travelling into work on a 2 car Pacer somehow.

PHILIPE · 3 Aug 2017

gareth950 said:
I was in Cardiff yesterday - just how close are the BBC going to get to Central station? Crazy.

The BBC Building shouldn't be there at all. What should be on site is a refurbished modern bus station fitting for a Capital City. FULL STOP. How the same Council got re-elected in May I don't know with all the scatter brained ideas they come up such as closing the most convenient rubbish tips, bus interchange at Waungron Park and so on. Now there are problems with the new mini bus station proposed.

PaulHarding150 · 3 Aug 2017

PHILIPE said:
The BBC Building shouldn't be there at all. What should be on site is a refurbished modern bus station fitting for a Capital City. FULL STOP. How the same Council got re-elected in May I don't know with all the scatter brained ideas they come up such as closing the most convenient rubbish tips, bus interchange at Waungron Park and so on. Now there are problems with the new mini bus station proposed.

I'm no fan of the current council, however the refurbished modern bus station fitting for a Capital City which you talk about is being built on the site right next door.

You can criticise the council for all manner of things regarding the bus station (and transport in general), but the location of the new bus station is not one.

Gareth Marston · 3 Aug 2017

gareth950 said:
I believe it is, so central Cardiff's roads will become even more congested. I can't see Jamie Owen travelling into work on a 2 car Pacer somehow.

Last time I heard the Director of BBC Wales Rhodri Talfan Davies lived in Clifton in Bristol so that should be a lot easier for him getting the train rather than driving

RP · 3 Aug 2017

gareth950 said:
If trams are adopted for the 'core valleys' north of Central / Queen St, then it will be inevitable. It all depends on whether NR can reach agreement on devolution of the 'core valley lines' to Welsh Govt. This agreement still has not been reached.

More info in this subscription article from 21st July here

I'm still yet to hear anyone from Welsh Govt explain exactly why Pontypridd - Cardiff is classed as a 'Core' route, and so by implication a more important / key route worthy of investment, whilst Barry - Cardiff is seemingly being downgraded to a 'non-Core', less important route and so if lucky will just get some new DMUs.

One would hope that the new franchisee /development partner will be able to bring far more urgency to all this work when the contract is awarded?
Metro Stage 1 (or was it 2?) promised the Ebbw Vale Capacity Enhancement Scheme, but as I passed the works between Crosskeys and Aberbeeg, the whole scheme seems abandoned, with vegetation encroaching on the unused additional track, and no work done this year, so far as I am aware. Some of the rail was delivered in late 2013!

Envoy · 3 Aug 2017

PHILIPE said:
The BBC Building shouldn't be there at all. What should be on site is a refurbished modern bus station fitting for a Capital City. FULL STOP. How the same Council got re-elected in May I don't know with all the scatter brained ideas they come up such as closing the most convenient rubbish tips, bus interchange at Waungron Park and so on. Now there are problems with the new mini bus station proposed.

Yes, I agree. The Waungron Park interchange is a daft idea as it would add about 8 to 10 minutes for the buses between Ely & the city to make the diversion off route. With a new station planned for the Ely Mill development site on the City Line, I see no reason why that could not be used as the interchange point between bus passengers and the City Line as it would not require the time wasting diversion. (It would also save the £1.7 million that Cardiff Council planned to spend on the Waungron Interchange).

The Welsh Government talk about The Metro and through ticketing between buses and trains. All well and good, but why have they not done anything to introduce that as of now? Another problem is the different bus companies such as NAT, First, Easyway and Cardiff Bus. If your journey involves switching companies en-route, you have to pay twice.

Parallel · 3 Aug 2017

Gareth Marston said:
Last time I heard the Director of BBC Wales Rhodri Talfan Davies lived in Clifton in Bristol so that should be a lot easier for him getting the train rather than driving

Perhaps not with the poor punctuality of the Turbos on that line

PHILIPE · 3 Aug 2017

PaulHarding150 said:
I'm no fan of the current council, however the refurbished modern bus station fitting for a Capital City which you talk about is being built on the site right next door.

You can criticise the council for all manner of things regarding the bus station (and transport in general), but the location of the new bus station is not one.

The new MINI bus station you mean. Is not being built yet, but which should have been by now and no sign when due to problems with developers. In an ideal world, the new one should have built progressively on the site of the old one. This is typical of the Council when the Millenium Stadium (Principality) now wasn't ready until long after the former Arms Park was closed. There will be a new Ice Rink and Empire Pool ready to replace the old ones when the others close and then have to wait about ten years. I'm afraid the new bus station which you seem to call it is going this way now.

PaulHarding150 · 3 Aug 2017

PHILIPE said:
The new MINI bus station you mean. Is not being built yet, but which should have been by now and no sign when due to problems with developers. In an ideal world, the new one should have built progressively on the site of the old one. This is typical of the Council when the Millenium Stadium (Principality) now wasn't ready until long after the former Arms Park was closed. There will be a new Ice Rink and Empire Pool ready to replace the old ones when the others close and then have to wait about ten years. I'm afraid the new bus station which you seem to call it is going this way now.

As I said you can criticise the council for all manner of things regarding the bus station but the location of the new bus station is not one.

PHILIPE · 3 Aug 2017

PaulHarding150 said:
As I said you can criticise the council for all manner of things regarding but the location of the new bus station is not one.

Hard to fathom out why you're so supportive of the new proposed bus station the way things are and the size of it

PaulHarding150 · 4 Aug 2017

PHILIPE said:
Hard to fathom out why you're so supportive of the new proposed bus station the way things are and the size of it

I'm not discussing the functionality, capacity or aesthetics of the bus station (as you well know unbelievably two years and three days after the old one closed it's still not been finalised.)

I have no complaints over the proposed location of the new bus station. You do. You want it where the BBC are going not the 50 meters to the east where it is going to go.

PHILIPE · 4 Aug 2017

I'm not concerned about the location but as to why it shouldn't be on it's old site rather than the BBC building and more in regard to the progress in building it.

Envoy · 5 Aug 2017

I can’t understand why the BBC were given permission to have a car park for their new HQ - which is right next to the Central Station. Cardiff Council say their intention is to get everyone to use public transport. Apparently, this does not seem to apply to the BBC big shots - though I can understand news crews needing to use cars.

Surely, it would be better for the BBC to have their car park on the north side of Wood Street - on land currently occupied by St. David’s House? From such a site, they could have a bridge across Wood Street from the car park into the main building. A landscaped area is proposed for this location but this is a waste as it will be mainly in the shadow of the BBC building. Few people would use this area as it is not on the main route between the station and the shops.

I would prefer a landscaped area with trees, water spouts, etc. to be between the station and the Royal Hotel. Of course, much depends on the final size of any amended bus/coach station. In fact I would prefer to see this on the south side of Cardiff Central where more space is available. It would also be easier for coaches to gain access/egress via Lloyd George Avenue from the A4232 Bay Expressway to/from the M4E&W. The Penarth Road underpass would provide a very short walk to the shopping areas. It would also be operationally a better location when events are on at the stadium and avoid rail passengers having to cross some bus flows on the north side.

A new building - that is no higher than the Prince of Wales, should be built just west of Great Western Lane. This building could have shops on the ground floor and offices above. The idea of having high rise at this location should be scrapped. (High rise will induce strong winds in Saunders Road and Wood Street creating a micro climate more like the outer Hebrides).

Class 170101 · 5 Aug 2017

Probably not practical to haul cameras and sound kit on trains, I would sugest, especially in rush hour.

Gareth Marston · 5 Aug 2017

Class 170101 said:
Probably not practical to haul cameras and sound kit on trains, I would sugest, especially in rush hour.

providing the % of spaces to employees is ver low and there there for disabled, work reasons etc then there's no problem if there not for general commuting. look at the problem at places like the Welsh Government offices at Cathays Park where the large underground car park which can't accommodate everybody is a coveted prize that gaining a space in occupies too much time of the employees. If you don't have it you don't bicker and scheme for it.

Envoy · 6 Aug 2017

I see that the new car park near Radyr station is to have free parking. I also see notices saying that it is to be managed by NCP. Has anyone ever seen NCP run car parks for free? Why have NCP? Surely, it could be managed by ATW (or whoever runs the franchise). This would just require the occasional sweep and perhaps the clamping of cars that are dumped on site by car dealers and alike.

Looks like it will be free to start with and then NCP will impose charges. Should this happen, then it will be bad news for Radyr as people try and find free on-street parking. Then they will no doubt impose resident only parking and Cardiff Council will cash in on that with fees to park outside your own house.

It will also be bad news for the train operator as a certain proportion of the population will decide that the trains are simply not worth using being as they must pay parking fees on top of the fare. Cardiff Council say that they wish people to use public transport to reduce road congestion in places like the Llandaff choke point. Imposing parking fees at stations is not the way to go about it.

Who decided that the NCP should have anything to do with this car park? How much are they paying/being paid to run this site?

edwin_m · 6 Aug 2017

Presumably NCP is quite happy to run a car park on someone else's behalf as long as they get paid. There must be a contract in place that defines maintenance standards and the payments the responsible party makes to NCP, and forbids them to charge the public although they may be allowed to levy enforcement fines. Whoever is responsible will have specified these standards and the period of the contract. Unless the contract is extremely badly worded NCP won't be able to impose charges unilaterally part way through.

gareth950 · 6 Aug 2017

It seems even the 'experts' are getting in on the speculation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-40443679

Metro vision faces 'many problems' in cutting cars on roads

By Chris Wood
BBC News

Carriages should start running on the new South Wales Metro by the mid-2020s, a transport expert has predicted.
Andrew Potter said there will be "no big bang changeover" but existing rail lines will be electrified in phases over the next decade.

"Light rail offer a good, rapid system on electrified lines and is cheaper.
"The downside is, that apart from a few places, you keep them separate from heavy rail. And there is still coal coming down the Rhymney Valley line."

This is why he believes completing work in phases is the best option - electrifying the Treherbert and Aberdare lines first by about 2020.
"Things are moving away from coal and in 10 years there may not be freight trains there [on the Rhymney Valley line] anyway," he added.

"Phases will spread the cost over a longer time frame, even if you do lose the big bang changeover like in Manchester where they shut down all systems and brought trams in on all routes."

He said having all the current rail network electrified in five to 10 years "might be a bit optimistic" but "a sizeable chunk" could be completed by the mid-2020s.

After that, thoughts would turn to new stations.
Dr Potter said: "If it is light rail, you could extend from Aberdare, beyond to Tower Colliery and Hirwaun.
Not sure why Light Rail is needed to do this - the existing heavy rail freight only route exists already

"If you keep the [current] diesel trains, Wales will be one of the only countries in the world with them on commuter routes," Prof Cole added.
"Cardiff would also be one of a few capital cities in Europe where only a small proportion of trains are electrified.
"The question is what can companies do and what is affordable?"

He agreed funding meant a limited number of routes - such as those from Treherbert and Coryton to Cardiff Central - could be electrified first.
However, this would mean people on the Treherbert to Barry trains, for example, having to change from the new vehicle on to the old train at Central station.
"That provides an opportunity for trams to be used," said Prof Cole.

"They could travel from Treherbert, come off the track somewhere after Cathays and travel past the university, museum and castle towards Central."
He needs to tell Cardiff University this pretty quickly, as work is starting now on their new 'Centre for Student Life', that will run along Park Place over the current students union, blocking any opportunity for trams to get onto Park Place, unless more buildings are demolished further along.

A second tram line could run in the opposite direction from Cardiff Bay, down Lloyd George Avenue and Westgate Street.

An outline metro map also suggests the possibility of taking light rail on existing roads around Roath Park and along Crwys Road, Cathays.

"A lot of focus goes on improving trade links between cities," said Paul Swinney, principal economist for the Centre for Cities think-tank.

"But our research shows links within city regions are more important for businesses looking to invest as they want to employ as many workers as possible."

He said trams in Nottingham and Sheffield "have not had much impact" as they have gone into some deprived areas "where people can't afford rail transport". Trams aren't anymore expensive than local buses in most areas are they?
Mr Swinney believes "a frank conversation" needs to take place over whether buses would be the best option.

I've cut and pasted bits and pieces of the article, not the whole thing.

PaulHarding150 · 6 Aug 2017

PHILIPE said:
I'm not concerned about the location but as to why it shouldn't be on it's old site rather than the BBC building and more in regard to the progress in building it.

By moving the bus station and rotating it by 90 degrees the bus station will still according to Cardiff Council be able to operate on match days when Wood Street and Wood Street Bridge are closed.

daodao · 7 Aug 2017

gareth950 said:
It seems even the 'experts' are getting in on the speculation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-40443679

I've cut and pasted bits and pieces of the article, not the whole thing.

I don't understand the fetish for a separated light rail system for the South Wales valleys. The service would be worse for journeys from outside the Cardiff area, Cardiff city centre has no space for segregated light rail, it would not be suitable for the Barry line and would cost a lot of time and money to implement.

Envoy · 7 Aug 2017

daodao said:
I don't understand the fetish for a separated light rail system for the South Wales valleys. The service would be worse for journeys from outside the Cardiff area, Cardiff city centre has no space for segregated light rail, it would not be suitable for the Barry line and would cost a lot of time and money to implement.

I could not agree more. Why would people travelling all the way down from the valleys want to be taken off the fast track to Queen Street/Cardiff Central for a tour of Roath Park and Cryws Road? Are people who work in the Welsh Govenrment at Cathays Park and those going to City Hall & the Museum too lazy to walk from Cathays station or even Queen Street?

So, why pay out loads of money to dig up the roads and wreck the through cross regional journeys that can be made at present from say Merthyr to Barry or Rhymney to Penarth?

It is regrettable that Heath Hospital is not on a rail route with an integrated station. The easiest solution - that could be set up today - is a shuttle bus link from Heath Halt for £1 return - only valid for those with rail tickets to stop car dumpers.

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