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Front end turns
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Galvanize
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Trainee Driver following a driver around to get a feel of shift work, procedures when booking on, viewing of notices in depots, cab checks, and the route in general. The only thing they are not doing is driving. Sometimes they are given a taskbook to fill out by the training school, which might have rules related questions, or might be asked to identify signs and signals found on the route.
Might also be known as "Cab Experience"
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Bromley boy
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Also known as a bit of a waste of time!
Unfortunately quite a few TOCs don't enough instructors so stick trainees on front end turns until one comes available. Fine for a couple of weeks, less so if it drags on for months.
axlecounter
Member
Following a Driver in his daily work can't be that waste of time... It wasn't for me st least.
There does appear to be a sniff of 'get the trainee out the way' about it all. Rather than a real practical and specific addition to their training schedules.
Very much bugger off and see you later at my TOC
choochoochoo
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Have to agree, it felt like that a bit.
The taskbooks don't really have much that you pick up whilst out front. You look most of it up in the rulebook/manual.
I know you cannot orchestrate useful learning experiences like degraded working (I know drivers who've been driving for years that haven't done TBW) or out of course incidents, but some diagrams are more interesting than others.
Also not a lot of drivers volunteer outright to take front enders, so you could find yourself at the end of a platform looking for a passing driver prepared to let you jump in with them. So you can miss out on booking on and prepping.
Galvanize
Member
I can sympathise with that. At some TOCs, 1st year (and in some cases, 2nd year) drivers aren't allowed people in the cab (apart from Managers or Driver Instructors), and also drivers who are on an action plan following an incident also can't take front Enders or route learners.
You also get drivers who aren't interested in having front Enders or route learners with them, maybe they are having a bad day and just want a bit of space, or they just don't want any company full stop. Eventually you've just got to take it on the chin and not take it personally if they refuse you a ride upfront!
Most companies who do it, my understanding is the training school is supposed to allocate drivers for the trainees to shadow for Front End turns, or failing that, provide a list of suitable drivers and how to get in touch.
axlecounter
Member
Wait, Drivers can choose whether they want a trainee in the cab or not? Is ist for anyone or TOC-specific?
The UK railways world never ceases to amaze me.
The UK railways world never ceases to amaze me.
VWCampervanman
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Why is this such a surprise?
The cab environment is obviously a very safety critical place, before anyone is even allowed in the cab they have to have certain training, cab etiquette is very strict, the driver has total authority who he or she lets in whilst they are responsible for that train. Except for a Driver manager or Driver Instructor who may be assessing them .
I found all the drivers I asked where very happy to let me jump in and spend time with them, but I would have totally understood if they had said no, I know from my own personal experience that somedays I just dont want the distraction or company.
Bromley boy
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A few people seem to be surprised by this. I've been turned down myself when route learning, I've also had requests I've had to turn down as a first year. Most people understand it, some seem to be a bit irritated by it.
One guy in particular came up to my window before I'd even released my doors - very distracting indeed and increases the risk of a stop short/door release, forgetting to set DRA at a red or similar. When I said no he didn't take it particularly well and was pretty curt - tough bloody luck, carry on standing in the rain!
The answer for someone who behaves like that will still be "no" even after the first year - too much of a risk.
There used to be only a single person we could not refuse entry into the cab. That used to be someone from the HMRI and that has been replaced so someone showing an ORR pass I think cannot be refused.
We can even kick out our DM's if we so choose. Wouldn't go down to well but if you considered them to be distracting you have the right to ask them to leave.
Your not supposed to refuse to be relived by a DI or Manager but its been known to happen and there is an exceptional circumstance which allows it.
choochoochoo
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I completely understand not always being allowed to ride in cabs.
However, if Front-Ending is part of a structured learning programme, then this experience should be a little more organised, than 'here are the numbers of some drivers, get in touch with them and see you in 3 weeks with your task book completed'.
Yes, we are grown-ups and should be able organise things for ourselves, but seeing how rigid everything else is in the training school, this bit could be done so much better to get more beneficial learning outcomes.
tiptoptaff
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At my TOC it's fully acceptable to refuse a DI or Manager to take your train for you, if you want to work it. Most common is someone who's just learned a particular route and wants to do a few trips over it while it's fresh in their minds
Raul_Duke
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Yes, but if it were well organised you wouldn't be getting a true view of how the railway works behind the scenes
How about the Pilotman?
At my TOC, where front-ending is built into the training programme you generally don't have issues - the duties/drivers are chosen as they are open to having someone new to the company shadow them for the day/week. That's not to say it was always seamless, but you'd always get a duty to shadow and weren't left feeling like a spare part!
Where it fell down a bit was the more ad-hoc front ending whilst waiting for instructors to become available, as there was no set structure; I'd head to a platform and see which trains were available. I found it beneficial to liaise with drivers I already knew, work out what they were driving and arrange to tag along the day before; that way I could effectively plan my day and knew I'd have no issues with doing certain trips.
Where it fell down a bit was the more ad-hoc front ending whilst waiting for instructors to become available, as there was no set structure; I'd head to a platform and see which trains were available. I found it beneficial to liaise with drivers I already knew, work out what they were driving and arrange to tag along the day before; that way I could effectively plan my day and knew I'd have no issues with doing certain trips.
tiptoptaff
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^points = +100
signallerscot
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Pilotman doesn't need a cab pass either, just the armlet (red flag on right arm in lieu sadly now abolished). Though I did hear a first hand account about a guard who insisted the Pilotman needed a valid travel ticket to board the train at a station...
Good point, well made.
The Pilotman is a rulebook requirement and I was talking more on the lines of those who casually turn up and request entry. In the context of 'front ending'
Bromley boy
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Seeing as he's merely a human token, if you didn't like the look of him you could send him into the back with the passengers
axlecounter
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If a trainee is let in into a cab I take that he's been trained enough about what he can or cannot do in it. Hopefully! If not, well, that's a TOC fault. But otherwise I can't see why a Driver could refuse a trainee in the cab. I have those days where I don't want company with me too, but that's my personal problem and surely it can't be a reason to say no.
And I think you can't refuse anyone out of respect too, since with you is coming someone who needs to stay in the cab to learn how to do the job and we've all been there at a certain point...
It's a distraction issue mostly. We had a recent incident and that was put down to the Driver being distracted by a Trainee in the cab.
It's also a personal issue for some. Some people just don't want people there. There is equally no reason for someone to be forced to have someone in their cab.
You are 100% right about respect. We have all been there
It's also a personal issue for some. Some people just don't want people there. There is equally no reason for someone to be forced to have someone in their cab.
You are 100% right about respect. We have all been there
Bromley boy
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Nothing disrespectful about refusing someone. I've my been refused myself quite a few times and I don't take it as a disrespect. I'm glad of having the same latitude myself.
I've also been let into cabs where the driver has been such a miserable sod I've wished he had refused me!
It's quite right that people doing a safety critical job are given latitude to work in an environment that is comfortable for them. If that includes not taking route learners, so be it.
Johncleesefan
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It's the awkward ones I get uncomfortable with. When you try to spark a conversation and you're having a one sided convo. Makes me want to boot them back out
Hi johncleesefan I know this is a different thread but did you get my message I passed all tests and mmi I am at dmi a week tuesday thanks for your early advice
choochoochoo
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Johncleesefan
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Yeh that did cross my mind but if I'm the one opening a conversation then I'm happy to talk at that point. I shut up regardless when I need to concentrate
VWCampervanman
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Totally agree, its not like most other jobs, a momentary lapse of concentration ( wrong side door release for example ) and people can die, its that simple and that quick .
As a driver ( currently in training )I am in total control and have the lives of many hundreds of people under my care, If I make an error and someone dies, then I am responsible , legally and morally .
For anyone not fortunate enough to have been in a cab during passenger service, Then they might not fully understand the concentration levels required, obviously with experience some drivers can make it look easy, but others still have to give 100% concentration, to be forced to have a trainee in the cab would be a unwanted distraction.
Silly question but; have you done your first year already ?
At my TOC less than a year and no one is allowed in your cab. I assume yours is different.
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