Virgin Azuma unveiled & plans for faster journey times

We also need to consider that there are far more services, with more stops, running these days than in pre-privatisation days. This has the effect of slowing down the service.

Mark62 said:

And?
It's not me saying the timing are going to be faster. It not me saying that 120 minute Leeds to London timing is an aspiration. It's irrelevant that only one train or two did it at that timing in 94. We are investing billions in rolling stock that is no better than stock from the 1970s .
And if these new expensive trains are so good then stagecoach/ virgin will be able to run their early morning business trains faster then BR did 24 years earlier between Leeds and London. Even if it's only one train. They say they are better, faster, comfier( seriously) so prove it.
Most people old enough to remember the faster trains know it's all marketing nonsense ams misdirection.

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The trains are faster in that they accelerate much, much quicker. It is now possible to run a service with stops in the same time it took to run a non-stop service twenty odd years ago. If the train did the same stopping pattern, it would be even faster, but there is no justification to do so because there are so many more passengers at intermediate stations now.

Mark62 said:

I just found my May 29 to September 24 1994 National rail timetable. In table 26 the 07.20 Yorkshire Pullman from Leeds arrived at Kings Cross at 09.19 with one stop at Wakefield. If the new trains are going to have faster timetables when will they be able to beat this timing. It's a totally fair question and relevant to the double talk we are being fed on a regular basis about trains. In 2018 will the Leeds to London journey be faster than it was 24 years earlier?
A simple question. the new trains are said to have faster acceleration than the current stock so even with the same line speed limit of 125mph they should be faster than trains that will be almost 30 years old in 2018. And 42 years older than the HST they are proudly replacing.
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How do explain why high speed long distance trains have got progressively slower? Maybe have a look at the timings on the lines from London to Bristol and South Wales before privatisation. And take a good look at the ECML. Please enlighten us a to why these services are slower. And when do you think trains will be faster on these lines than they were over 20 years ago.

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Well maybe you could look at how many trains per hour there were out of Kings Cross in 1994 compared with today and look up how many more people are using trains than in 1994 and how they are using those trains, like much more long-distance commuting, which has developed as a result of high-frequency 125mph services (and factors like insane London house prices), resulting in different calling patterns to try to meet that demand. The world has changed and the railways have had to adapt. That would not have been any different had privatisation never happened and BR still existed.

I can think of at least one route in this country where long-distance high-speed trains have manifestly obviously got faster since privatisation - the busiest route in the country, the WCML. Many XC journey times are also faster as a result of the universal use of 125mph rolling stock and various incremental speed limit increases that Network Rail has delivered in recent years. As recently as 2007-8 the standard Birmingham-Bristol journey time was 91 minutes. Trains now are between five and 10 minutes faster than that.

If and when 140mph running is permitted on the ECML and GWML, then you might see some hefty cuts in journey time but that is not going to alter the factors that I have pointed out above, nor make up for the infrastructure constraints that will remain, such as the key bottleneck on the ECML north of Welwyn, with just two tracks over the viaduct and through the tunnels.

Journey times in other countries on classic lines remain broadly comparable with what we see here - they have largely achieved speeding-up of times in the period since we introduced HSTs by building new lines. The only case where this has happened in the UK and domestic services now operate - to and from Kent - has also resulted in much faster journeys.
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Mark62 said:

And?
It's not me saying the timing are going to be faster. It not me saying that 120 minute Leeds to London timing is an aspiration. It's irrelevant that only one train or two did it at that timing in 94. We are investing billions in rolling stock that is no better than stock from the 1970s .
And if these new expensive trains are so good then stagecoach/ virgin will be able to run their early morning business trains faster then BR did 24 years earlier between Leeds and London. Even if it's only one train. They say they are better, faster, comfier( seriously) so prove it.
Most people old enough to remember the faster trains know it's all marketing nonsense ams misdirection.

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BR was quite good at a bit of marketing nonsense and misdirection itself. I'm sure many people will remember the big sign on the old Royal Mail shed just south of Birmingham New Street proclaiming that the fastest train to London took 91 minutes or something like that - pretty much every other InterCity service BR ran all day, every day took 100 minutes.

Just in case you missed it, the Virgin announcement states clearly that the two-hour Leeds-London timing will be "the norm". Not just one headline limited-stop train per day. So making a difference to a lot of people, not just those travelling on business expenses who aren't bothered by the absurd sums of money now demanded for anytime return fares.

And if we look at what happens today, then it's a fair bet that the odd show-off headline timing business train between Leeds (or Newcastle) and London will indeed take a chunk of time off the standard timing - just as today's 0700 from Leeds and 0540 from Edinburgh/0704 from Newcastle do.

Mark62 said:

I just found my May 29 to September 24 1994 National rail timetable. In table 26 the 07.20 Yorkshire Pullman from Leeds arrived at Kings Cross at 09.19 with one stop at Wakefield. If the new trains are going to have faster timetables when will they be able to beat this timing.

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I don't understand the complaint. This service still exists as the 07.00 Leeds - 08:59 Kings Cross train (one stop at Wakefield). So how is it any slower than in the BR days? The reason Virgin EC is claiming the new trains will be faster is that this 2 hour journey time will spread across most/all services, including all others that have more stops.

The currently headline train times (2 hours from Leeds, 4 hours from Edinburgh) are meaningless to the vast majority of travellers since they only apply to one early morning service. It's great the option exists for those that need to make a morning meeting in London, but most people on the many, many other services that run, have to put up with 4h20-4h45 from Edinburgh. If the new trains are going to make 4 hours the norm, that is a demonstrable, and much appreciated, improvement.

It's not about the headline services, it's about the overall service. Surely this is a case of misdirection about the level of service offered in BR days!

Mark62 said:

How do explain why high speed long distance trains have got progressively slower? Maybe have a look at the timings on the lines from London to Bristol and South Wales before privatisation. And take a good look at the ECML. Please enlighten us a to why these services are slower. And when do you think trains will be faster on these lines than they were over 20 years ago.

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It's literally already been explained: there are far more trains running now, so there aren't the paths for these non-stop services anymore. But yes - it must be some multi-decade, multi-corporate conspiracy, with secret agreements signed and franchises decided decades before they are let. They must even get other companies in on it to submit false applications when the franchises are "let" etc.!

Also you're comparing the fastest time of trains from 20 years ago to the average time of these new trains. That is, in itself, an enormous improvement if these two numbers are the same!

Back to an earlier point the name "Azuma" is trendy but like "Intercity 125" may soon be forgotten. Who in the railway world calls HST`s 125`s anymore. On the other hand Voyager and Pendolino are still widely used.Perhaps voyager/Pendolino are less of a mouthful than class 220/390 respectively. May just have to get used to Azuma I suppose.

I suspect quite a lot of general passengers refer to 125s (and maybe 225s, but less likely). I'd never heard 125s referred to as HSTs until I started reading this forum a few years ago.

I'm not sure I've ever heard a normal passenger refer to a 125 (or HST) or a 225!

"Intercity 125" was a (very) well promoted brand name in the first few years of that trains' operation, although I've read one source of contemporary travel literature that relates one passengers' (in the West of England) initial bewilderment and then surprise upon discovering that the name referred to the trains' maximum speed! Perhaps BR didn't communicate that facet of the trains' identity as effectively?
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Master29 said:

Back to an earlier point the name "Azuma" is trendy but like "Intercity 125" may soon be forgotten. Who in the railway world calls HST`s 125`s anymore.

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"Voyager" and "Pendolino" are just the brand names of our age in the same way as "Intercity 125" was of its' own, but probably no more memorable: How many Crosscountry passengers identify their long distance services as "Voyager" trains, for instance? It's primarily an identification feature that Virgin use to differentiate between different train lengths and service levels nowadays.

The Azuma is making it's 1st trip into Scotland today not sure what code it is running under

I assume it's 5X08 - 1038 Doncaster Carr Iep Depot to Dunbar

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97228/2017/08/16/advanced

Darandio said:

I assume it's 5X08 - 1038 Doncaster Carr Iep Depot to Dunbar

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97228/2017/08/16/advanced

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Yes that's the one

Return trip

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97229/2017/08/16/advanced

Master29 said:

Back to an earlier point the name "Azuma" is trendy but like "Intercity 125" may soon be forgotten. Who in the railway world calls HST`s 125`s anymore. On the other hand Voyager and Pendolino are still widely used.Perhaps voyager/Pendolino are less of a mouthful than class 220/390 respectively. May just have to get used to Azuma I suppose.

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Hmm. GWR are using the phrase "Super Express Trains", wonder which name will come on top. After all the 180s always had two names, Adelante and Zephyr, and we all know which one was successful and which one wasnt!

To me they're IEPs. That's what I call them anyway. Or 800s.

Don't see why you wouldn't get both, just like there are Voyagers and Meridians.

Never heard a 180 called Zephyr. Is that Grand Central's doing?

Bletchleyite said:

Never heard a 180 called Zephyr. Is that Grand Central's doing?

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Yes in keeping with the American flavour they had in their earlier days as Zephyr features in the name of some of named services over there (such as the California Zephyr). It never particularly caught on as a name for the 180s though as far as I'm aware.

Virgin will win the PR war whether they pick a name beginning with A or Z.

(Azuma of course means East/from the east in Japanese)

Bletchleyite said:

Don't see why you wouldn't get both, just like there are Voyagers and Meridians.

Never heard a 180 called Zephyr. Is that Grand Central's doing?

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Voyagers and Meridians are not the same class of train! And yes, it is.

TT-ONR-NRN said:

After all the 180s always had two names, Adelante and Zephyr, and we all know which one was successful and which one wasnt!

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Most definitely not "always" been called Zephyr.

TT-ONR-NRN said:

Hmm. GWR are using the phrase "Super Express Trains"...

To me they're IEPs. That's what I call them anyway. Or 800s.

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The "P" in IEP stands for Programme. It's actually pretty weird to call the trains developed by the programme IEPs. But that horse has bolted...

Some of GWR's most recent PR refers to them as "Intercity Express Trains", I think they've possibly given up on SET, indeed I suspect that might have been more of Hitachi's name for them:

On Tuesday 8 August, the first of Great Western Railway’s Intercity Express Trains for Devon and Cornwall carried out test runs in Somerset, between Bruton and Cogload.

https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-...s-trains-for-devon-and-cornwall-begin-testing

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Thursday 22nd June 2017
Passengers to benefit from new trains, providing more seats, more services and reduced journey times

Great Western Railway’s first Intercity Express Train has made its maiden voyage to Cornwall this morning, as part of a very special test journey from London Paddington to Penzance.

https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-...ress-train-visits-cornwall-for-the-first-time

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swt_passenger said:

The "P" in IEP stands for Programme. It's actually pretty weird to call the trains developed by the programme IEPs. But that horse has bolted...

Some of GWR's most recent PR refers to them as "Intercity Express Trains", I think they've possibly given up on SET, indeed I suspect that might have been more of Hitachi's name for them...

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Have GWR given theirs a name like the Virgin Azuma yet? Do they plan to? Seems like all of the units these days have a brand/model name.

Thanks,
Ross

TT-ONR-NRN said:

After all the 180s always had two names, Adelante and Zephyr,

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Pretty certain they weren't, considering it was a Grand Central thing.

Bletchleyite said:

Don't see why you wouldn't get both, just like there are Voyagers and Meridians.

Never heard a 180 called Zephyr. Is that Grand Central's doing?

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I've heard a 180 been called a 'Screecher' many times but can't say I've ever heard 'Zephyr'

As for GWR, we refer to the Class 800 and 802 as the IET. The term SET is rarely used these days, more when the train was a prototype. I'm hoping it will get a friendly name soon, and hopefully not 'Glorytaker'...

leomartin125 said:

I've heard a 180 been called a 'Screecher' many times but can't say I've ever heard 'Zephyr'

As for GWR, we refer to the Class 800 and 802 as the IET. The term SET is rarely used these days, more when the train was a prototype. I'm hoping it will get a friendly name soon, and hopefully not 'Glorytaker'...

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Maybe.. 'Nishi'. Which is west in Japanese. No? ok..

Thanks,
Ross

XCTurbostar said:

Have GWR given theirs a name like the Virgin Azuma yet? Do they plan to? Seems like all of the units these days have a brand/model name.

Thanks,
Ross

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As above, "IET"

XCTurbostar said:

Have GWR given theirs a name like the Virgin Azuma yet? Do they plan to? Seems like all of the units these days have a brand/model name.

Thanks,
Ross

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Pretty sure they had a competition 1-2 years back as I remember submitting a name to them...

TT-ONR-NRN said:

After all the 180s always had two names, Adelante and Zephyr, and we all know which one was successful and which one wasnt!

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Grand Central couldn't use Adelante as it's a FirstGroup brand. Adelante has stuck as First still operate the majority of the fleet, nothing to do with it being more successful.

JaJaWa said:

Pretty sure they had a competition 1-2 years back as I remember submitting a name to them...

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Yes they did, the runner up was Super Highspeed Intercity Train.....

nuneatonmark said:

Yes they did, the runner up was Super Highspeed Intercity Train.....

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What was the winner? Trainy McTrainface? Surely the boat (!) has sailed on public naming competitions.
As for the ridiculous "Azuma", for some reason it reminds me of throat pastilles.

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