Trivia: Stations where terminating trains reverse outside the station

gg1 · 9 Aug 2017

The temporary Stephenson Street terminus of the Midland Metro works on the same principle with trams running a short distance past the platforms after unloading to swap tracks before picking up passengers for the return journey.

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mmh · 9 Aug 2017

tsr said:
The Norwood Perturbation Siding / Turnback (name varies depending on verbosity of signaller) works on this principle. The train will usually terminate at East Croydon, get cleared out, and proceed in the same direction of travel into the siding from the Slow lines. Once done, the driver will change ends (and drink tea), waiting for the signal to clear to allow them back to the heady delights of more Croydon.

There's a similar arrangement at West Croydon for terminating London Overground trains. They don't terminate in the terminal platform there (used by Southern terminating trains), but in the through down platform, and continue to a central siding to reverse.

There is also another interesting manoeuvre in the area, from Norwood Junction to Selhurst or vice versa, through the depot via the Arrival or Departure roads. This is a semi-circular route which will result in the train effectively being routed 180 degrees back towards London. This can be done without passengers onboard, or with them in exceptional circumstances.

Norwood Junction to Selhurst via the depot used to be used in normal passenger service - I've got a mid 80's Network SouthEast timetable booklet (which I'm afraid I can't find right now) with it in. It wasn't very frequent though if I remember correctly.

notlob.divad · 9 Aug 2017

najaB said:
In a previous thread it was mentioned that one option considered for HS2's London terminus was for it to have through tracks to a depot somewhere outside central London. Trains would unload in the London terminus, then run ECS to the depot where they would be prepared for their northbound journey.
This would have the advantage of significantly reducing the footprint of the central London terminus, at the cost of a few (tens of) miles of extra track.

It does seem like quite a good idea, are there examples of this setup in practice elsewhere in the world?

I have just popped down to my local mainline station to have a look if this is what happens. I long suspected it was, but only today did I actually see it with my eyes to confirm. I am talking about Gdynia Głowna in Northern Poland. It is built as a through station, with no bays, which would make it not a terminus, however it is the end of the line for all the Intercity services that serve it. Being on the north coast, these all approach from the South. After unloading passengers at the station, the unit continues to the North where the PKP depot is. The train then returns to the station ready for its next run. The main reason for this I think is that many trains are Loco hauled and so disappear off to the depot to have the Loco run around, however (and this is what I went to confirm) the new Pendolinos also do the same. Equally as the main route for all the freight traffic to the port goes through the station, keeping the platforms free for Freight trains to trundle through is pretty important.

alistairlees · 9 Aug 2017

notlob.divad said:
I have just popped down to my local mainline station to have a look if this is what happens. I long suspected it was, but only today did I actually see it with my eyes to confirm. I am talking about Gdynia Głowna in Northern Poland. It is built as a through station, with no bays, which would make it not a terminus, however it is the end of the line for all the Intercity services that serve it. Being on the north coast, these all approach from the South. After unloading passengers at the station, the unit continues to the North where the PKP depot is. The train then returns to the station ready for its next run. The main reason for this I think is that many trains are Loco hauled and so disappear off to the depot to have the Loco run around, however (and this is what I went to confirm) the new Pendolinos also do the same. Equally as the main route for all the freight traffic to the port goes through the station, keeping the platforms free for Freight trains to trundle through is pretty important.

I was there last week (actually in the SKM metro part). There are some intercity (well, TLK) services that go through without terminating though - e.g. Olsztyn - Szczecin services. And a Warsaw - Hel EIC on summer Saturdays at least too. But I take your point.

Incidentally, I don't recommend that much getting a Gdansk - Szczecin service that much - 4 hours with no facilities, and not much to look at either. Take some food! Though, it is a bit like BR in the 80s.

GW43125 · 9 Aug 2017

Not a terminus per se, but two trains per hour terminating: Dunblane. Arriving trains have to shunt forward over the crossover and reverse back into the up platform, quickly, as having the crossover in reverse fouls the clearing point!

xotGD · 9 Aug 2017

Some terminating services at Knottingley head out of the station eastbound to reverse and come back in. However, trains can arrive and depart from either platform so some just stay in the station. On a good day you don't have to cross the footbridge at all, on a bad day you have to cross it twice.

On a very bad day your train is a Merseyrail 142.

Strathclyder · 10 Aug 2017

InOban said:
I should have thought of that one. I assume that platform 1 is West bound from Westerton? In which case these trains now usually run through to Dumbarton, and I assume reverse in the loop there.

Via Yoker terminators presumably usually run into the bay platform ?5, although I've been on one that did as you suggest.

The trains you're thinking of are the ex-Cumbernauld/Springburn - Dalmuir trains that used to terminate at Plat 5; they now run through to Dumbarton Central calling at Kilpatrick & Bowling in lieu of the Airdrie - Balloch trains (which currently run fast between Dalmuir & Dumbarton East); terminating/changing ends at DBC's Plat. 3.

Ex-Motherwell/Whifflet trains running via Westerton that terminate at Dalmuir turn back via the aforementioned siding to take up their next eastbound duties at either Plat. 2 (Singer branch) or Plat. 4 (Yoker branch).

LesF · 23 Aug 2017

This would have the advantage of significantly reducing the footprint of the central London terminus, at the cost of a few (tens of) miles of extra track.
[/QUOTE}

The OP is absolutely right that terminal stations are inefficient and it's better for trains to run through. We have grown up with the London termini and accept them as they are, though Thameslink has shown how much better through services are. My solution for Euston is two new through plats under the street on the western flank (Cardington Street/Melton St), carrying on to a terminus under Smithfield Market, elegant old buildings that are partly disused and could be restored as St Pancras was. Smithfield is directly across the road from the new Farringdon station entrance and is much more central than any of the termini. Farrindon is at the crossroads of Thameslink and Crossrail and has good u/g connections. 6 plats at Smithfield would take 12 tph out of Euston so there is no need to expand Euston and no need to demolish any buildings or to blight Camden with 10 years of construction works. There's room in Euston for 3 extra plats if needed; two in place of the disused lorry ramp and one by doubling the only single track. The throat for Smithfield (best called Farringdon because that's where the existing/future station is) can be built by cut and cover under Lincolns Inn Fields and restored afterwards.
The 5 mins dwell quoted by one poster for a through plat at Euston is pessimistic because firstly, few passengers will board a southbound train and few will alight from a northbound train, and secondly because there will be a passenger circulation level above the tracks so passengers will be delivered to the platform near to their seat instead of having to walk along the plat. The line has to go under the Victoria line under Euston Road. Alighting passengers will have multiple lifts, stairs and escalators to choose from. 2 to 3 mins dwell seems reasonable.
Better to use Euston as a calling point towards a more central terminus than to expect passengers to alight at Old Oak Common.

Melancholia · 24 Aug 2017

Oxford - Trains are terminated and continue northbound to the Down Carriage Sidings

Maidenhead - Only recently counts, as previously trains turned around on the platform, or continued onto the Marlow Branch. Now, 387s terminate and continue onto the Reversal west of the station.

Bathgate - Was in Scotland in May, and I can't really remember, but I believe trains continue onto somewhere when they terminate there.

iantherev · 24 Aug 2017

St James Park where terminating trains continue to Exmouth Junctiom to reverse.

InOban · 24 Aug 2017

Melancholia said:
Oxford - Trains are terminated and continue northbound to the Down Carriage Sidings

Maidenhead - Only recently counts, as previously trains turned around on the platform, or continued onto the Marlow Branch. Now, 387s terminate and continue onto the Reversal west of the station.

Bathgate - Was in Scotland in May, and I can't really remember, but I believe trains continue onto somewhere when they terminate there.

The only trains which normally terminate in Bathgate are the final two from Edinburgh and Glasgow, which are stabled in the sidings there. Except on Dec 26th, when for historical reasons there are trains in the old Strathclyde area as far as Bathgate, but not between there and Edinburgh. Bonkers, I know.

Melancholia · 24 Aug 2017

InOban said:
The only trains which normally terminate in Bathgate are the final two from Edinburgh and Glasgow, which are stabled in the sidings there. Except on Dec 26th, when for historical reasons there are trains in the old Strathclyde area as far as Bathgate, but not between there and Edinburgh. Bonkers, I know.

Thanks for the clarification. I remember being on the 20:07 from EDB, then back in order to waste a bit of time waiting for my southbound sleeper :lol:

DanTrain · 25 Aug 2017

Sheffield Meridians run North out the station to turn around, presumably to free up platform space.

imagination · 25 Aug 2017

Kite159 said:
Would Bournemouth & Southampton count for XC services?

Terminates, empties out before heading to a siding for a period of time before returning to the station to head back to the north?

Happens at Reading as well when necessary.

dvboy · 26 Aug 2017

Trains from Leicester do a similar thing at Lincoln.

And it used to be the case with VT services at Wolverhampton. Now most of them are through services up to Scotland and those that start/end at Wolverhampton I assume are the first and last of their diagrams.

matt_world2004 · 26 Aug 2017

Heathrow terminal 5 on the picadilly line trains go beyond the station to a siding and enter service on another platform.

tsr · 27 Aug 2017

mmh said:
There's a similar arrangement at West Croydon for terminating London Overground trains. They don't terminate in the terminal platform there (used by Southern terminating trains), but in the through down platform, and continue to a central siding to reverse.

Indeed. I sign all the routes around Croydon, and have seen it many times! It becomes very interesting when the LO and Southern trains swap places, which I've seen happen a few times. Southern services can sometimes use the turnback, which is contrary to what a lot of people think.

Obviously the West Croydon ECS/turnback manoeuvre has the potential to really muck up through services if the procedure is delayed. It's a major cause of delays to Southern's peak time extras to Guildford, in particular.

Norwood Junction to Selhurst via the depot used to be used in normal passenger service - I've got a mid 80's Network SouthEast timetable booklet (which I'm afraid I can't find right now) with it in. It wasn't very frequent though if I remember correctly.

I vaguely knew it used to be done more often. Likewise can't remember what it used to be, but was once aware!

There's probably very little benefit to doing that now.

fowler9 · 27 Aug 2017

Apologies if I mentioned it before but Preston to Liverpool South Parkway. Runs in to Lime Street, turns around, runs none stop down the slows to South Parkway where it terminates in Platform 4. Then it does the same the other way.

satisnek · 27 Aug 2017

I would guess that this kind of thing was much more common in the immediate post-Beeching period than now. Nottingham Arkwright Street and Rugby Central on what was left of the Great Central spring to mind.

edwin_m · 27 Aug 2017

On a lot of overseas Metros, including most termini in Paris, train runs to turnback sidings beyond the platform to reverse. Sometimes there is a facing crossover approaching the station so that if the train is delayed or the turnback is unavailable it can run directly to the departure platform.

najaB · 27 Aug 2017

I've changed the thread title since the discussion has expanded past the initial scope.

driver_m · 27 Aug 2017

You'll have a an unusual set up at South Parkway when the Euston - Liverpool trains terminate there in pl4 whilst Lime St is shut. They'll have to depart north initially to then cross over and head back south.

driver_m · 27 Aug 2017

Also. Trains just change ends at Lichfield HL and Rugeley TV. Never seen any do shunts there.

AlexNL · 27 Aug 2017

At Amsterdam, the ICE coming from Germany doesn't reverse in the station but it does that at a servicing platform to the west of the station. The IC from Berlin runs empty to the Zaanstraat yard, also to the west of Amsterdam Centraal.

Trains approaching Amsterdam from the south (coming from the high speed line or Belgium) don't reverse in Amsterdam Centraal either, they head to the Watergraafsmeer yard (to the east) where they're cleaned and serviced.

Any services terminating at Schiphol Airport continue ECS to Hoofddorp where they're prepared for their next journey.

12CSVT · 27 Aug 2017

Kneedown said:
Phase 1 of the Robin Hood line, when trains terminated at Newstead. It was a requirement for trains to offload the passengers before continuing forward ECS for a short distance, where the Driver would change ends and return to the platform. I'm afraid I don't recall the reason for this, only that it was something to do with the signalling or track circuits.

Isn't Newstead on a gradient ?

Before the Borders line opened, trains did this at Newcraighall, possibly for the same reason.

childwallblues · 28 Aug 2017

driver_m said:
You'll have a an unusual set up at South Parkway when the Euston - Liverpool trains terminate there in pl4 whilst Lime St is shut. They'll have to depart north initially to then cross over and head back south.

P4 is on the Down Slow. There are no signals to allow a reverse working to Speke Junction hence the need to go to Allerton West Junction to reverse. The signals there will allow the train to cross to either the up slow or up fast.

edwin_m · 28 Aug 2017

12CSVT said:
Isn't Newstead on a gradient ?

Before the Borders line opened, trains did this at Newcraighall, possibly for the same reason.

The standards generally require a gradient of less than 1 in 500 for places where the driver might leave the controls, for example to change ends, because of the risk of the train rolling away if not secured properly. Modern trams can get round this by having automatically applied parking brakes, and trains probably could too.

SEClass375 · 28 Aug 2017

Has no-one mentioned Tunbridge Wells yet? Terminating services in platform 2 turn around in a siding the other side of the tunnel before picking up passengers in platform 1.

xotGD · 28 Aug 2017

Terminating trains at Sunderland used to always run in to the sidings at Park Lane to switch platform. My bag once accidentally took a trip on the ecs. Being out yellow-penned by your bag is a bit much!

ANDREW_D_WEBB · 28 Aug 2017

Central Line services terminating at Northolt reverse in a centre siding west of the station. IIRC the same applies at Newbury Park.

Trivia: Stations where terminating trains reverse outside the station

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