Digital Railcard Warning

Clip · 1 Sep 2017

roversfan2001 said:
If you have your railcard at the start of the journey you are highly likely to also have it at the end. Not so much with phone battery percentage.

But still not 100% guaranteed though is it?

Want me to dig up more lost or out of date railcar d threads for you or shall we just leave it that you cannot accept anything other than a papercard and you will clutch at any straw to try and make out that digital ones are bad?

RailUK Forums

mrmartin · 2 Sep 2017

I really can't get my head round the level of pushback here. If you want a paper railcard, use one. For 16-25 year olds - which I assume must be a very significant minority of railcard trips - this is a huge huge improvement.

I will add that this is driven by how stupid the existing railcard system was. For example; why couldn't I pay to renew a 16-25 railcard on the train if I already had a photo card? That alone would have saved me £200 minimum. These ridiculous restrictions go away with the move to digital.

jon0844 · 2 Sep 2017

Expired cards should certainly become a thing of the past. If someone starts a journey and realises their card has expired, they can easily renew there and then. (If RDG is clever, they'll have an option to automatically renew).

Bletchleyite · 2 Sep 2017

mrmartin said:
I really can't get my head round the level of pushback here. If you want a paper railcard, use one. For 16-25 year olds - which I assume must be a very significant minority of railcard trips - this is a huge huge improvement.

I will add that this is driven by how stupid the existing railcard system was. For example; why couldn't I pay to renew a 16-25 railcard on the train if I already had a photo card? That alone would have saved me £200 minimum. These ridiculous restrictions go away with the move to digital.

They could go away anyway, all they'd need to do is sell the online ones with an annual direct debit.

TUC · 2 Sep 2017

In a day and age when so many previously paper items or mechanical transactions are now the subject of apps, the level of pushback here really is surprising. It would be interesting if there were a wider cross-section survey of the make up of the Forum audience to see if there are any common characteristics that could explain the reluctance.

aleph_0 · 2 Sep 2017

TUC said:
In a day and age when so many previously paper items or mechanical transactions are now the subject of apps, the level of pushback here really is surprising. It would be interesting if there were a wider cross-section survey of the make up of the Forum audience to see if there are any common characteristics that could explain the reluctance.

I'd suggest that it also reflects the understanding of the nature of the railway, and the risks posed to passengers on here.

The thread was started by someone who, due to application faults, was forced to buy a new ticket. This shouldn't be happening, there should already be procedures to ensure staff are aware and don't charge customers. It also leaves one with very little faith in the standard of quality control procedures, I wouldn't want to put my faith in RDG's app.

Similarly, being aware of how some ToCs handle allegations of travelling without a ticket, I would want to avoid the risk of being put in such a situation due to the errors of the RDG.

Even if the application was reliable, I wouldn't be confident that my phone wouldn't run out of battery on one of my longer journeys during the year. So, even though I'd be open to using an m-ticket on the railways, I wouldn't want an electronic-only railcard. Being able to load my railcard onto an electronic app, whilst retaining a physical copy, however, would be useful (and I don't see any real reason why RDG aren't doing this).

neilmc · 2 Sep 2017

I'd never buy anything which might leave me at the mercy of an "attitude test" by a rail employee. Because if I have a valid piece of orange cardboard and in-date plastic railcard in my possession then I don't need to give a damn about THEIR bad attitude.

jon0844 · 2 Sep 2017

The thing is, nobody should have been forced to buy a new ticket because of that bug.. given the expiry date was clearly 2018.

The solution isn't to stop using the app, or scrap it, but rather give advice to rail staff to use discretion because it's clearly a mistake.

I wonder what happens if the phone has the wrong time/date, or time zone? I know I've had e-tickets for buses rejected because while my phone had the right time, the ticket machine was out by around ten minutes. As such, it rejected my ticket.

Fortunately the drivers waved me through based on the information shown on the display.

Common sense can solve most issues, and there are more 'options' with a digital card than having left your physical card at home, or losing it. With the app, you can retrieve it (I assume?) from another device.

In theory, staff with connected devices could actually check the railcard themselves - with the railcard owner giving their email address.

aleph_0 · 2 Sep 2017

jon0844 said:
The thing is, nobody should have been forced to buy a new ticket because of that bug.. given the expiry date was clearly 2018.

The solution isn't to stop using the app, or scrap it, but rather give advice to rail staff to use discretion because it's clearly a mistake.

In an ideal world, if the app breaks, rail staff would either be provided with an alternative system, be *instructed* to take any customer's word for it (they are holding a valid railcard, it is the railways fault it can't be validated).

I'd argue that with the structure of the railway, the evidence we have is that this is unlikely to happen successfully. There will be ToC guards who don't get the message. Government and RDG enforcement of standards is weak, which will not help. We see enough basic issues on here with some ToCs not follow the NRCoT.

Looking into the website has made me even more skeptical. The railcard has to have been verified online in the application in the last 72 hours, and a card can be blocked and "will no longer be valid for travel" at any time. So, if RDG messes up, I might find myself opening the application to no railcard, and at a potential risk of a PF or prosecution.

island · 2 Sep 2017

aleph_0 said:
In an ideal world, if the app breaks, rail staff would either be provided with an alternative system, be *instructed* to take any customer's word for it (they are holding a valid railcard, it is the railways fault it can't be validated).

That doesnt sound like an ideal world, it sounds like an ideal way to reduce railcard sales to zero if a passenger can claim to have a Railcard but be unable to open it.

aleph_0 · 2 Sep 2017

island said:
That doesnt sound like an ideal world, it sounds like an ideal way to reduce railcard sales to zero if a passenger can claim to have a Railcard but be unable to open it.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant *if/when* the app breaks due to RDG's error, then there should be appropriate instructions (so if it's showing 'Expired' but incorrect date, that could be the instruction). But similarly, if they break the app so that the railcard is not displayed, then the instruction should be to trust the customer.

My point was more that this should be a customer right, rather than an instruction to use discretion (which could be ignored).

However, since the terms make it clear that RDG can just block the railcard at anytime making it no longer valid, they're pushing the risks onto the consumer.

roversfan2001 · 3 Sep 2017

Clip said:
But still not 100% guaranteed though is it?

Want me to dig up more lost or out of date railcar d threads for you or shall we just leave it that you cannot accept anything other than a papercard and you will clutch at any straw to try and make out that digital ones are bad?

You sound slightly irked that I personally would never use a digital railcard; were/are you involved in the process of getting this app to the public? Only possible explanation for why you are hostile towards anyone who wouldn't use this.

I've stated why I personally wouldn't use one and given reasons why. Call it 'clutching at straws' all you want, your counter-arguments haven't been all that strong either.

Wallsendmag · 3 Sep 2017

Why not use the existing one strike forgotten Railcard procedure and just cancel the strike when it's proven it's the apps fault ?

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adrock1976 · 3 Sep 2017

Or better still, the people who are in charge of releasing the app to the general public should not in any circumstances do so, until it works properly at the first time of asking, and without fail.

Clip · 4 Sep 2017

roversfan2001 said:
You sound slightly irked that I personally would never use a digital railcard; were/are you involved in the process of getting this app to the public? Only possible explanation for why you are hostile towards anyone who wouldn't use this.

I've stated why I personally wouldn't use one and given reasons why. Call it 'clutching at straws' all you want, your counter-arguments haven't been all that strong either.

My counter arguments have all been strong and backed up with threads detailing people forgetting or misplacing their railcards whilst on their journeys. Id suggest you go back through the thread and read them.

Exact same scenarios albeit with paper being forgotten compared to a phone running out of charge - which appears to be the main and only reason people are against them.

jon0844 · 6 Sep 2017

I thought I'd download the app and it seems very well written to me. It let me login with my existing account, and even let me continue with an online application I started back in 2015! (A card I never bought as I needed it sooner and got from a ticket office in the end.)

Given it can be installed on two devices at the same time and many people have more than one phone, I think many issues really don't really exist. It looks very quick and easy to add an existing card to another install.

All in all, I can really see the app being extremely popular. I'd be amazed if most YPRCs weren't via the app once it's well known. I am sure news will spread quickly amongst students.

Other railcards? Well that's up to the industry to promote and for rail staff to be aware of and recommend.

yorksrob · 6 Sep 2017

Clip said:
My counter arguments have all been strong and backed up with threads detailing people forgetting or misplacing their railcards whilst on their journeys. Id suggest you go back through the thread and read them.

Exact same scenarios albeit with paper being forgotten compared to a phone running out of charge - which appears to be the main and only reason people are against them.

Having been using the railway for some years, I can assure you that the likelihood of any electric device I may have being out of action, is a lot greater than the likelihood of me forgetting my railcard. This is because I keep railcard, tickets and metro card together in a plastic wallet. Therefore I will not be switching to any sort of electronic "app" except by compulsion.

jon0844 · 6 Sep 2017

Ideally you'd be able to have both. Just as I can pay with my Visa card, use my phone or watch. All the same card (albeit virtual tokens on the phone/watch) whatever method I choose to use.

For all of us who have a ticket wallet and are used to carrying railcards and photo ID as a matter of course, there will be others who haven't even got one, may have an e-ticket and now have a digital railcard. The next step is for e-tickets to be displayed on the phone, or even potentially through the same app as it develops. A single point for all tickets and railcards, with a secure login, and retrievable on more than one phone.

Given the mess introducing smartcards, it may well be the phone that for some time becomes the favoured method of ticketing.

EAD · 8 Sep 2017

island said:
My knowledge of German law doesnt extend that far; however, the point is that requiring ID to support a train ticket is easier to get customers to accept when they have to carry ID anyway for other reasons.

To help here - there is a general requirement to be able to prove identity under §1 PAuswG (Law on Personal Identity Documents). This does not extend to it being obligatory to carry it on your person. It also regulates in essence its use to prove who you are against state bodies. In reality if you don't have the ID on you for the police then you have to produce it within a set time at the station (as we do e.g. for car insurance). Also worth noting the law is laid out as applying to Germans (as defined in the constitution/basic law).

Bletchleyite · 8 Sep 2017

jon0844 said:
Given the mess introducing smartcards, it may well be the phone that for some time becomes the favoured method of ticketing.

The barcode is the best means of doing it as it's medium agnostic - phone, print your own, TVM, whatever. It's also completely solid-state to read them.

D365 · 8 Sep 2017

ooo said:
It's hardly a great expense seeing as they are sold in places like Poundland

Yeah... you definitely don't want to be buying poundland electronics.

jon0844 · 8 Sep 2017

Bletchleyite said:
The barcode is the best means of doing it as it's medium agnostic - phone, print your own, TVM, whatever. It's also completely solid-state to read them.

Yes, but they can be open to fraud unless the person checking has a connected device to validate. Certainly they have many more years of use because of their simplicity, but I think going forward there are smarter solutions to offer more.

Barcodes are great to replace paper tickets, but can't do that much more.

D365 said:
Yeah... you definitely don't want to be buying poundland electronics.

Until Big Clive has checked it out at least

He seems to have found some pretty good products there, which surprised me. So it isn't a case of just writing off everything because it's cheap.

Bletchleyite · 8 Sep 2017

jon0844 said:
Yes, but they can be open to fraud unless the person checking has a connected device to validate.

Within 5-10 years I am certain there will be blanket 4G or better throughout the UK. That problem then goes - all you need is a camera phone and a "gripping" app.

jon0844 · 8 Sep 2017

Bletchleyite said:
Within 5-10 years I am certain there will be blanket 4G or better throughout the UK. That problem then goes - all you need is a camera phone and a "gripping" app.

4G is pretty widespread now, and by 2020 EE will have 95% geographic coverage (meaning I'd imagine nearly all railways will be covered). Vodafone is also rapidly catching up; as it puts fibre in to serve old 2G sites, they are able to offer excellent 4G coverage.

It's more a case of the industry giving staff the necessary equipment. That will happen, but the same machine that reads a barcode will also manage smartcards too, or be able to validate a digital railcard.

Bletchleyite · 8 Sep 2017

jon0844 said:
It's more a case of the industry giving staff the necessary equipment

Most of them already carry a company camera-fitted smartphone of some kind - the cheapest Android one would work fine. Just needs a verification app.

Then for each scan you'd have far more recorded than the present physical defacement of tickets using a cheap biro - time, date, train, guard, precise position etc, and all that could be displayed on the phone, as well as obvious things like being 100 miles closer to the origin than the last scan (i.e. re-use) being flagged up.

Wallsendmag · 8 Sep 2017

jon0844 said:
It's more a case of the industry giving staff the necessary equipment. That will happen, but the same machine that reads a barcode will also manage smartcards too, or be able to validate a digital railcard.

It already does at least at one TOC

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SaveECRewards · 9 Sep 2017

Wallsendmag said:
It already does at least at one TOC

Does DORIS validate the barcodes on the railcard app or are you talking about something different here?

Wallsendmag · 9 Sep 2017

SaveECRewards said:
Does DORIS validate the barcodes on the railcard app or are you talking about something different here?

Reads Barcodes and Itso

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_toommm_ · 9 Sep 2017

So the issue is finally fixed as of yesterday! Accidentally opened the app and saw the railcard was orange, and to my displeasure it now has a big photo of me on it! + the words 'Bought Online' as opposed to 'Expired'

I hate cheques by the way. Had to wait 5 working days (a whole calendar week) to get my 99.50 back

paddington · 10 Sep 2017

The cheque clearing process is going to speed up soon.

I dislike cheques too but they have uses, in particular the advice often given in this forum to send two cheques in response to a travel irregularity.

What I dislike even more is the trend of removing options.

Digital Railcard Warning

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