Just how long are driver/guard breaks?

Up_Tilt_390 · 9 Sep 2017

According to an old program called "The Railway: Keeping Britain on Track", Union regulations require at least half an hour breaks between journeys for drivers. But whenever I've gone trainspotting I've noticed that regional drivers tend to pull in, then do a quick turnaround and drive off again, so I'm assuming the regulations actually mean breaks every so few hours or something.

But in contrast to the regional operations, I've spoken to a Virgin driver recently who was on a two and a half hour break, and in one edition of RAIL magazine it also had a two-hour break for a driver working the 0847 Liverpool to London, then the 1307 return. This also gives them a two hour break. I assume that other intercity operators like CrossCountry have similar diagrams.

When it comes to guards, one time I got a train to London and return two hours later, and I think it might've been the same guard on each journey, though I cannot be sure. I don't know about guard union regulations, but I'm assuming they get around the same time for breaks, both on regional and long distant services.

Are break times company specific or railway requirements? If it's the former then I must say it's no wonder companies like Virgin are considered premier operators when the breaks are as long as the journeys. If it's the latter then why are such long breaks necessary? Two hours is quite a far cry from the 30 minute regulation I heard about.

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Shrimper · 9 Sep 2017

There are railway requirements, as well as company specific minima which may depend on duty length and content.

And there is nothing to stop a company rostering a longer break - for example my duty this morning had a 20 minute regulated break, but due to the train timings I ended up with just over an hour - the rest of this time I'm effectively spare, though it is rarely used except in serious disruption.

I'm only entitled to one PNB in a duty, but it can be broken down so I end up with several breaks when everything runs smoothly

Bromley boy · 9 Sep 2017

Our minimum PNB length is 30 mins - in practice the rostered breaks are longer than this and are usually around an hour half way through the shift, but in the event of disruption making you late for your break you must take the 30 minute minimum, even if your next train is sitting waiting for you.

PNBs are only required in shifts more than 5 hours long. Other breaks may come up depending on the diagram, sometimes you may get 30 mins between trains, sometimes you get the minimum time to change ends (5 mins for a 4 car, 8 for a 10 car) etc.

It's not unusual to drive for 1:20, get less than 10 mins to change ends/go to the toilet and then drive for another 1:20!

Bromley boy · 9 Sep 2017

Up_Tilt_390 said:
I must say it's no wonder companies like Virgin are considered premier operators when the breaks are as long as the journeys. If it's the latter then why are such long breaks necessary? Two hours is quite a far cry from the 30 minute regulation I heard about.

Specifically with regards to this point, intercity TOCs will naturally tend to have longer breaks as their operations are less intensive and drivers will do far longer journeys before their breaks.

At my metro depot most of our journeys are around 40 mins (absolute max 1:20) so inevitably you get a lot more time out of the seat between journeys changing ends (although often not long enough for it to really seem like a break).

You're quite right most drivers regard mainline and particularly intercity work as preferable as it is far less intense and bitty, fewer journeys and fewer stations to stop at (that's not to say it's any less difficult). This is why historically, and still today to a lesser extent, drivers had to work through lower links to get to the "cream" work. These days the quality of the work is a lot more depot and TOC dependent, and sadly less varied, than during BR days.

306024 · 9 Sep 2017

Once upon a time, back in BR days, almost all diagrams were 8 hours long, with a 30 minute Physical Needs Break (PNB) to be taken between the 3rd and 5th hour of duty.

Then along came flexible rostering and latterly privatisation. These days most TOCs and FOCs have their own bespoke agreements, some written to suit the nature of the work. Many though only have a basic allowance of 30 minutes in the mess room for a PNB plus the time it takes to get there and back.

Shift lengths are more varied, and as a result diagrams are more productive. Pay has increased, partly reflecting this productivity. In some cases where diagrams are longer, breaks have been slightly extended too.

The diagrammers have to adhere to these agreements, but sometimes breaks are much longer simply because of the timetable. Can't work a train that isn't there. Also breaks can be longer than needed because, perverse as it sounds, that may require less crew overall. All part of the huge jig-saw puzzle at goes to resource a timetable.

driver9000 · 9 Sep 2017

Breaks can be bare minimum 30 minutes or a few hours depending on the job you're on that day. How long a Driver or Guard can work before their PNB is determined by their conditions of service for their company.

455driver · 9 Sep 2017

Bromley boy said:
Our minimum PNB length is 30 mins - in practice the rostered breaks are longer than this and are usually around an hour half way through the shift, but in the event of disruption making you late for your break you must take the 30 minute minimum, even if your next train is sitting waiting for you.

Which leads to the 'My train was delayed because the driver wanted a cup of tea' headlines.

Of course the same people would never moan about a lorry, bus or coach driver taking their legally required breaks but they expect us to just keep going, but then driving trains is only pulling levers and pushing buttons isnt it! :roll:

craigybagel · 9 Sep 2017

driver9000 said:
Breaks can be bare minimum 30 minutes or a few hours depending on the job you're on that day. How long a Driver or Guard can work before their PNB is determined by their conditions of service for their company.

Which is why the guards (sorry, "Train Managers") at Virgin West Coast don't have guaranteed breaks. At most companies, if the guard hasn't got enough time for their full break before their next departure, either the train gets delayed or somebody else works it. At Virgin they're expected to just have their break on the train itself.

But then they do get paid more than most

Aivilo · 9 Sep 2017

A break is only ever 30 minutes long. The time between trains however maybe be greater

455driver · 9 Sep 2017

Aivilo said:
A break is only ever 30 minutes long. The time between trains however maybe be greater

You will also have walking time to and from the mess room and also train prep time if the train is not ready.

craigybagel · 9 Sep 2017

Aivilo said:
A break is only ever 30 minutes long. The time between trains however maybe be greater

Again, that depends between companies - at my own, we can have a 15 minute break so long as we get another longer one at another time in the shift.

greatkingrat · 9 Sep 2017

Aivilo said:
A break is only ever 30 minutes long. The time between trains however maybe be greater

Not always, we get a 40 minute PNB if the job is over 9 hours long.

MrPIC · 9 Sep 2017

40 mins minimum for my TOC, and sometimes 50 mins at a certain location due to the walk to the messroom from the platforms. There's also agreement on longest driving stretch without a "natural break" which is like a changing ends with more than just 6 mins changing end time. Personally, I will never ever work through my PNB or accept a "spoilt" or short (could also mean taking a PNB at anywhere other than a designated PNB point). Not because I'm a difficult bugger (although most would disagree!), but because I really value being able to step out of work for a period, smoke myself silly and relax with a tea for a bit before putting my work hat back on and getting on with it.

coxxy · 9 Sep 2017

Think most people in the job will agree that it is usually somewhere between 30 mins and an hour depending on walking time and depot etc..

The days of having a 2 and a half hour break are getting rarer and rarer but in some occasions they do still exist.... For now.

Brunel 1954 · 10 Sep 2017

I have noticed that sometimes at station stops that the driver has left the cab to use the toilet in the leading coach in the train as modern power cars are not provided with facilities. With most classic diesels a urinal was provided in the engine room for crew use.

craigybagel · 10 Sep 2017

I've got two breaks today, one of 15 minutes and one of 20 minutes, as part of a shift that is just over 7 hours.

Bromley boy · 10 Sep 2017

Brunel 1954 said:
I have noticed that sometimes at station stops that the driver has left the cab to use the toilet in the leading coach in the train as modern power cars are not provided with facilities. With most classic diesels a urinal was provided in the engine room for crew use.

When I was front ending I shared a cab with a driver who was "caught short", had to call the signaller up and go and use the toilet at a station we called at (some of our stock doesn't have on board toilets).

Mildly embarassing perhaps but absolutely the right thing to do as being desperate for the toilet is obviously a huge distraction!

ComUtoR · 10 Sep 2017

Aivilo said:
A break is only ever 30 minutes long. The time between trains however maybe be greater

Ours is 30 mins too. (official minimal break allowance)

I think the OP needs clarification on the difference between Diagram content and Time allowances.

Galvanize · 10 Sep 2017

In some cases, certainly when I used to be a Dispatcher at a busy Terminal Station, diagrams were timed very tightly...and in some cases, barely minimum time for a PNB (It was either 2x20 minutes or 1x30 minutes minimum for drivers/guards...not including walking time!), so if the train was just a few minutes late, the Driver would quite rightly claim their PNB.

This invariably meant the next working would go out a few minutes late.

I remember one poor driver, late one evening a couple of years ago who'd been driving non-stop for a few hours, got to a principal station where he was supposed to be relieved to go on a PNB...no relief appeared...and he couldn't just leave the unit unattended on the main running line...at the signaller's request, he reluctantly worked it upto my station (about another 15 or 20 minutes in the chair!) to await further instructions, and spent the best part of 20 minutes trying to get in touch with his control to try and arrange a break. Alas they weren't particularly interested in his requests (there was disruption too!)...not entirely sure how it was resolved, as from what I remember, he got back in the cab and must have worked it somewhere. Fuming was not the word to describe how he felt.

Liam · 10 Sep 2017

Is there a legal minimum break/rest period? For example, there are quite strict laws over HGV driver hours such as daily, weekly and fortnightly limits behind the wheel and minumum daily and weekly rest and break periods?

ComUtoR · 10 Sep 2017

Liam said:
Is there a legal minimum break/rest period? For example, there are quite strict laws over HGV driver hours such as daily, weekly and fortnightly limits behind the wheel and minimum daily and weekly rest and break periods?

Yes.

'Hidden 18' regulations
Employment Law
T&Cs
Safety Critical / RSSB rules

It can get quite complex.

As I stated our minimum PNB requirement is 30 minutes. That is affected by diagram length, diagram criteria, driving hours etc etc. At its extreme, 30 minute break is the absolute minimum on a 9hr 15/30 minute turn. A lot of diagrams that is all you get.

6Gman · 10 Sep 2017

The Manning Agreement (as it was then termed) laid down various requirements. Initially PNB was 30" (excluding walking time and disposal/prep of train so "between train" times could be 75" for example), later 2 x 20" was included under flexible rostering.

There were other limits such as "continuous driving" which - ISTR - differed according to type of train.

In theory these were fixed requirements but different depots interpreted them differently. For example Pwllheli drivers (bless 'em) regarded swapping cabs at Barmouth as a break (all of 4 minutes, and spent walking from platform to platform!) and therefore the continuous driving clock restarted from zero. There are certain larger depots who certainly wouldn't have seen it that way!

craigybagel · 10 Sep 2017

6Gman said:
In theory these were fixed requirements but different depots interpreted them differently. For example Pwllheli drivers (bless 'em) regarded swapping cabs at Barmouth as a break (all of 4 minutes, and spent walking from platform to platform!) and therefore the continuous driving clock restarted from zero. There are certain larger depots who certainly wouldn't have seen it that way!

Until recently there was only six of them, with two jobs, two spare turns and two on rest day each day - given their workload they could probably cope with short breaks :lol:

Flange Squeal · 17 Sep 2017

Overground

theironroad · 17 Sep 2017

Swr drivers

1 X 30 mins PNB in the job even if a 9h30 job.

PNB to be diagrammed to commence after 3rd hour and to be completed by end of 6th hour. May be diagrammed to end of 6.5 hrs. If so another 20 minutes break away from cab earlier in turn but not at signing on.

driver9000 · 17 Sep 2017

Hidden was never enacted into law they are only recommendations which by and large most operators follow as best practice. There is no legal limit on our driving time like bus and lorry drivers have it's all down to the agreements made between management and the unions. Driving time limits can vary between companies but I can't think of a company that has less than 12 hours rest between safety critical turns (some have a lower rest if your next turn is an off trains day for example).

Bromley boy · 17 Sep 2017

driver9000 said:
Hidden was never enacted into law they are only recommendations which by and large most operators follow as best practice. There is no legal limit on our driving time like bus and lorry drivers have it's all down to the agreements made between management and the unions. Driving time limits can vary between companies but I can't think of a company that has less than 12 hours rest between safety critical turns (some have a lower rest if your next turn is an off trains day for example).

That's also my understanding.

Hidden is binding in the sense that it is a widely accepted industry practice and any company (or individual) who was involved in an incident and discovered to have breached hidden would be on very thin ice indeed.

As the "gold standard", failure to comply with Hidden would look pretty damning in a criminal trial or civil action for damages.

theking · 17 Sep 2017

Is that minimum pnb time?

Say for instance at a company the minimum pnb length was 40 mins but on a diagram the pnb was 1hr but the train is 30 mins late.

Is the driver entitled to his 40 mins break or full 1 hour? Or must take his train over ontime with only 30 mins pnb?

driver9000 · 17 Sep 2017

theking said:
Is that minimum pnb time?

Say for instance at a company the minimum pnb length was 40 mins but on a diagram the pnb was 1hr but the train is 30 mins late.

Is the driver entitled to his 40 mins break or full 1 hour? Or must take his train over ontime with only 30 mins pnb?

You are entitled to the break shown on the diagram. If it shows 30 minutes then that is your entitlement exclusive of walking time etc.

cin88 · 17 Sep 2017

Traincrews can sometimes (incredibly rarely) end up with PNBs in the 2-4 hours range. I remember a few times as a child where my dad would have such a long PNB between diagrams that he'd come home from Manchester Victoria, have his evening meal with the family then go back again. That stopped when he switched to freight and is probably impossible now :lol:

Just how long are driver/guard breaks?

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