If a train is booked to stop, must it, in fact, physically do so?

axlecounter · 9 Sep 2017

Dougal2345 said:
Well admittedly it's not a 'problem' I've ever seen discussed, but...

I'm sure we can all agree that when you've got 120 tonnes (say) of train, cruising at (say) 70mph, then bringing it to a halt and then getting it up to speed again when there is no reason to do so (because no-one wants to embark or disembark) is not a good thing, from the point of view both of wear and tear, and fuel costs...

Stopping this happening using relatively cheap modern communications technology might seem to be a quick win.

I recall once reading a newspaper article that had the estimated financial cost of the brake-wear when bringing an HST to a halt. Unfortunately I can't remember the figure now

But if it doesn't happen now, I can definitely see it happening when driverless trains come along... I boldly foresee that small stations on all lines will become request stops!

Surely it can be done: http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/halt-auf-verlangen-bei-rhb-92372.jpg

RailUK Forums

rg177 · 9 Sep 2017

I was on a late running Harwich to Manningtree service last night, and the guard, having noted me as the only passenger, essentially left about 2 seconds between releasing and locking the doors at stations in between as they were deserted. Seemed to be just so he could say he'd done it, but nonetheless, his speed meant that I made my London connection by about 20 seconds

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

181 · 9 Sep 2017

Old Yard Dog said:
I often wonder if it is legitimate to pull the chord if you are unable to get off a train before it sets off due to either overcrowding or faulty doors?

I remember our German teacher doing this in the Federal Republic in 1966. He had failed to notice that we had stopped at our desired little station in the middle of nowhere as we were at the back of the train which was so long that he thought we were held up at signals. He also got a b******g but not a fine.

I don't know what would happen now, but my father did it at Minffordd (BR, not Ffestiniog) in 1984 -- the train had overshot the platform, and we and a number of other people were still making our way back to a door that was on the platform when it started moving again. My recollection is that the guard was a bit grumpy about it but accepted that it was the railway's fault, and the train set back to allow us to disembark.

(This prompted Dad to tell the story of arriving at Upper Warlingham in pre-grouping non-corridor stock in the early 1950s. Apparently the normal procedure when the train was longer than the platform was for it to draw forward to allow people out of the rear carriages, rather than instructing Upper Warlingham passengers not to use these carriages. On this occasion the train was late and didn't make the second stop, so he pulled the cord only for it to break -- yards of chain came pouring out while the train carried on regardless).

tsr · 9 Sep 2017

rg177 said:
I was on a late running Harwich to Manningtree service last night, and the guard, having noted me as the only passenger, essentially left about 2 seconds between releasing and locking the doors at stations in between as they were deserted. Seemed to be just so he could say he'd done it, but nonetheless, his speed meant that I made my London connection by about 20 seconds

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

Common practice on many rural branch lines on what you might describe as contra-peak flow workings. So long as you dispatch safely and you can be sure there was nobody waiting on the platform, there's nothing wrong with it.

I do recall a couple of occasions where it has been quicker to still run mid-evening Tonbridge-Redhill services calling at all stations despite a delay, against the alternative option of amending the service, issuing a stop order, getting platform staff down to the driver's cab to give it to them, getting the conductor informed so they can announce it, and then waiting for two people to get off the train...

Bovverboy · 10 Sep 2017

Martin S Heron said:
Had an experience on bustitution once, the boat train from Fishguard Harbour to Cardiff. As we boarded the bus driver asked what station we were going to, all of us (less than 10) were going to Cardiff for onward connections - so he drove straight to Cardiff ignoring all the intermediate stations! I just hope there was noone at somewhere like Llanelli or Carmarthen waiting for a replacement bus service that never came.

That sort of thing happens a lot, especially late at night. Around here there are a few regular late night substitutions where the bus is supervised away from its originating point but no-one seems to show any interest in what happens to it after that, whether it calls at stations or abides by advertised times. The first few stations down the line will usually be called at (not necessarily at the due time), but after the first few stations the bus is treated as drop-off only, calling at stations if there is someone wishing to alight.

The train companies must be fully aware of what happens, and be happy with it.

Clansman · 10 Sep 2017

It's fairly common for Caledonian Sleeper services to skip stop if there's no one booked to board/alight at non-principle stations.

TrainfanBen · 10 Sep 2017

I was once on a southbound Virgin WCML service that was delayed.

As far as I know/remember It called additionally at Stafford and then went non stop to Euston rather than going through the Midlands.

najaB · 10 Sep 2017

TrainfanBen said:
As far as I know/remember It called additionally at Stafford and then went non stop to Euston rather than going through the Midlands.

That would've been a decision made by control, rather than the driver calling up the signaller and saying 'I don't feel like going to Birmingham today.'

Michael.Y · 10 Sep 2017

Some late night set-down-only services will skip stations if there's no-one on, as I found out to my cost one night waiting for the last train through to start an early morning shift.....

455driver · 11 Sep 2017

Michael.Y said:
Some late night set-down-only services will skip stations if there's no-one on, as I found out to my cost one night waiting for the last train through to start an early morning shift.....

So you were intending to board a set down only service, shame! :lol:

Bovverboy · 12 Sep 2017

Michael.Y said:
Some late night set-down-only services will skip stations if there's no-one on, as I found out to my cost one night waiting for the last train through to start an early morning shift.....

Well you've hardly got a complaint there, if a service is set-down only (usually for some logical reason) then it's natural that it won't stop at a particular station if there's no-one wishing to alight. You're breaking the rules anyway, boarding a train which is designated set-down only, but you're lucky in that if such a train does have to stop at a particular station, you'll probably be let on.

Going back a while now, I did on one occasion alight from a train which was supposedly pick-up only. Mind you, I didn't become aware until later..

Dougal2345 · 18 Jun 2018

Dougal2345 said:
Maybe more stations could be made into request stops, but rather than the "ask the guard/wave arms on platform" methods, a bit of modern technology could be used... bus-style buttons by the seats on the train, and a big button on the platform somewhere to send a signal the driver...

Spartacus said:
All well and good until someone figures out the very easy ways in which one can, quite literally, 'gum up the works', never mind more permanent ones.

najaB said:
Not to mention that if the platform equipment is sending a signal to the driver, then there needs to be proving to ensure that the intending passenger knows the driver receives the message.

Johncleesefan said:
Sounds like a headache. More tech to fail or miss communicate. More stres and variation for the driver having to alter his stopping pattern for every journey

Llanigraham said:
Except that drivers/guards don't have the facilities to receive most of those notifications, and most would be seen as a driver distraction. I suggest you are looking at solutions to problems that don't really exist.

Well I hate to say "I told you so", but...

Elwyn said:
There are plans to introduce a push button request stop system for some stations on the Far North Line (Inverness to Wick & Thurso). See:
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...n-trains-as-hi-tech-system-trialled-in-north/

najaB · 18 Jun 2018

Dougal2345 said:
Well I hate to say "I told you so", but...

The Far North Line is a bit of an exception to the rule. It is largely 'dark territory' as far as signalling is concerned due to RETB. I suspect it won't be a system that sends a message to the driver and rather passenger-operated signals (even semaphores) as existed previously on the line. I can't see it linking into RETB.

twpsaesneg · 18 Jun 2018

Used to semi-regularly happen at Barry with the last passenger train of the day to the Island booked back to Canton as ECS. Driver would change ends and then take the dummy from the end of the Down platform instead of continuing around the corner to Barry Island if no-one was on board. Signaller would be ready for the change of direction accordingly!

frodshamfella · 18 Jun 2018

Ive been on a train from Helsby to Ellesmere Port which just slowed down at Stanlow...it didnt stop, im sure that it should have done really, it's timed to stop there, just a very lightly used station.

jamesst · 18 Jun 2018

I've had it before when we know there's nobody left on the train and we're terminating at the next station so obviously nobody can get on. Get to the terminating station, doors opened and closed within 10seconds!

bunnahabhain · 18 Jun 2018

70014IronDuke said:
Not talking about request stops, of course. (Perhaps some should be so!)

I'm thinking in particular of early morning services booked to stop at lightly used (sometimes extraordinarily so) stations which are not request stops and where 99.8% of the time nobody will be alighting and 95% of the time nobody will be getting on.

For example - the first train off Skegness, the 07.09 to Nottingham, which is booked to stop at Havenhouse (a grand total of 162 passengers last year) and Thorpe Culvert (286).

I could imagine, on a majority of days, especially in winter, the guard could check the few passengers on board, then tip off the driver "nobody for XY stop, driver" and, while slowing down ready to stop, the driver could easily see that nobody is waiting and just accelerate away without coming to a stand. (Would the guard need to give 2 buzzes?)

It would certainly help to recover 30-45 seconds or so if things were running late, bit I'm not sure of the operating rules. I kind of feel sure this would have happened in days of old whether strictly allowed or not - but these days, what with all the satellite speed gubbins, control could, presumably, pick such moves up?

There are a lot of waiting rooms in Lincolnshire which don't have a good view inside from the train unlike the bus shelter variety. They tend to be either the original station waiting room where available (Swinderby upside, Thorpe Culvert downside), or a brick built one (Elton & Orston, Swinderby downside) or something adapted into one like the old battery room for the signalbox at Havenhouse. You always stop, because you don't know if somebody is hiding just around the corner. In the case of Havenhouse there is a signal protecting the level crossing on the down side, although generally in the winter this is left on non-stopping mode as the station is notoriously bad for wheelslip.

RichJF · 19 Jun 2018

I've been on a few Thameslink trains that were scheduled to call at Elephant & Castle in the old timetable but just sailed through without notice, cue consternation from passengers when the next stop was East Croydon!

philthetube · 19 Jun 2018

twpsaesneg said:
Used to semi-regularly happen at Barry with the last passenger train of the day to the Island booked back to Canton as ECS. Driver would change ends and then take the dummy from the end of the Down platform instead of continuing around the corner to Barry Island if no-one was on board. Signaller would be ready for the change of direction accordingly!

Used to happen at Nelson as well, dont know if it still does.

DarloRich · 19 Jun 2018

70014IronDuke said:
Not talking about request stops, of course. (Perhaps some should be so!)

I'm thinking in particular of early morning services booked to stop at lightly used (sometimes extraordinarily so) stations which are not request stops and where 99.8% of the time nobody will be alighting and 95% of the time nobody will be getting on.

For example - the first train off Skegness, the 07.09 to Nottingham, which is booked to stop at Havenhouse (a grand total of 162 passengers last year) and Thorpe Culvert (286).

I could imagine, on a majority of days, especially in winter, the guard could check the few passengers on board, then tip off the driver "nobody for XY stop, driver" and, while slowing down ready to stop, the driver could easily see that nobody is waiting and just accelerate away without coming to a stand. (Would the guard need to give 2 buzzes?)

It would certainly help to recover 30-45 seconds or so if things were running late, bit I'm not sure of the operating rules. I kind of feel sure this would have happened in days of old whether strictly allowed or not - but these days, what with all the satellite speed gubbins, control could, presumably, pick such moves up?

Yes, of course they must stop.

Old Yard Dog · 19 Jun 2018

frodshamfella said:
Ive been on a train from Helsby to Ellesmere Port which just slowed down at Stanlow...it didnt stop, im sure that it should have done really, it's timed to stop there, just a very lightly used station.

I've also been on trains which only slowed at Stanlow, but not recently. However despite living in Ellesmere Port, I very seldom get to travel on this line owing to the inconvenient timings.

cuccir · 19 Jun 2018

Dvorak said:
Why aren't stations with so few passengers request stops? A passenger less than one every four trains. Assuming not every passenger is travelling by themselves, in reality even more infrequent.

Presumably on lines with request stops, there needs to be enough slack in the timetable to avoid significant delays on days when for whatever reason each stop is used. And given that trains would have to slow anyway, having the odd one here and there will probably not save that much time. So I suppose the answer is that, for a system which is mildly more complex than just stopping every train, it's probably not worth it to save 45 seconds here and there.

frodshamfella · 19 Jun 2018

Old Yard Dog said:
I've also been on trains which only slowed at Stanlow, but not recently. However despite living in Ellesmere Port, I very seldom get to travel on this line owing to the inconvenient timings.

I used to go up and down on it of an afternoon, but the timetable is even worse now, that's if its even running given Northern's problems !!

Dougal2345 · 19 Jun 2018

cuccir said:
Presumably on lines with request stops, there needs to be enough slack in the timetable to avoid significant delays on days when for whatever reason each stop is used. And given that trains would have to slow anyway, having the odd one here and there will probably not save that much time. So I suppose the answer is that, for a system which is mildly more complex than just stopping every train, it's probably not worth it to save 45 seconds here and there.

I suspect the new electronic 'press to request' system is more about saving money than time - as you say, time savings are difficult to achieve on a timetabled service.

Decelerating and accelerating a train is not at all a cheap process, especially on a steeply-graded line. Much better to coast through the whole trip at 40, including the request stops, than to slow down at each one and then have to hit 60 between them in order to keep to time.

whhistle · 21 Jun 2018

Bertie the bus said:
Just to make it even more confusing for passengers why not only when the first day of the month is a Wednesday, but not for months that have 31 days?

Ha ha. Yet another reason this forum needs the "like" function enabled :P

whhistle · 21 Jun 2018

najaB said:
That would've been a decision made by control, rather than the driver calling up the signaller and saying 'I don't feel like going to Birmingham today.'

And it's also significantly different to a driver trying to help "the railway" out.

The facts remain, there was nobody on board, the train was due to terminate at the station then move to a siding. I don't see any problem in the driver shunting straight away without faffing about in the station, which could have caused additional risks (from punters trying to get on) and yet more disruption, which could potentially impact on later services.

All it's done is teach the driver that they shouldn't bother trying to help out in times of need.

I guess it's also part of the obsession with the railway implimenting rules to cover all circumstances but in many examples, it just doesn't work very well at all, as these cases need to be looked at individually.

Krisj159 · 22 Jun 2018

We have some trains that are 'Set down only' and not advertised to the public from those stations. As a guard in the past, I used to go through the train and see if we had any passengers for those stations and if not - tell the driver and keep going. Nowadays as a driver I have to stop regardless. Ridiculous but these are snowflake days where common sense doesn't rule.

Teflon Lettuce · 22 Jun 2018

swills said:
The Railway is not a make it up as you go along Company, there are Rules and Regs to abide by, and oddly, stopping at stations is one of them

Can you let GTR know please

Chrisgr31 · 22 Jun 2018

Bovverboy said:
That sort of thing happens a lot, especially late at night. Around here there are a few regular late night substitutions where the bus is supervised away from its originating point but no-one seems to show any interest in what happens to it after that, whether it calls at stations or abides by advertised times. The first few stations down the line will usually be called at (not necessarily at the due time), but after the first few stations the bus is treated as drop-off only, calling at stations if there is someone wishing to alight.

The train companies must be fully aware of what happens, and be happy with it.

Not that long ago I was on a bus replacement service for the last train. \the last thing I remember of my journey is hearing the driver ask at Edenbridge if there was anyone for the next stop. I then woke up as the bus came down Uckfield High Street, a slight inconvenience as I wanted Crowborough! Checking my watch the bus was 30 minutes early at Uckfield and should only have been at Crowborough. My guess being he asked if people wanted to get off and of course I was asleep so didnt answer. He refused to take me back!

On a different occasion I was on the last train and woke up in Uckfield. Didnt think much of it except the train seemed early. I had a taxi booked to meet me at the station and phoned them, They were quite used to me calling them from all over the place, but when I said I was in Uckfield he said how did you get there? The train hasn't been through Crowborough yet! As it was early in Uckfield the conclusion was it had run fast at some point. Luckily for my taxi driver there were sev eral of us that had been caught out so he got extra fares delivering everyone home!

PHILIPE · 22 Jun 2018

I recall once when I was working a Wessex service to Cheltenham and booked to return ECS to Gloucester which had no passengers travelling beyond Gloucester. The TOC still had to run it wasting fuel in order to avoid a cancellation penalty.

If a train is booked to stop, must it, in fact, physically do so?

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

On Moderation

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member