Northern getting tough... (on board ticket sales)

Bletchleyite · 21 Sep 2017

185143 said:
Which is good, until they start being difficult towards people using another method of payment...

It makes it a lot easier when someone handing a card over at a barrier is automatically in the wrong, though.

FWIW, I think the railway is going to, at some point, need to bite the bullet and cease accepting cash payments, with some kind of workaround e.g. a partnered pre-pay card topped up at the likes of PayPoint/Payzone shops which are pretty ubiquitous. It would save a fortune and vastly simplify revenue protection.

London buses of course already have, and the TVMs are proposed to be removed from Tramlink too. And I wonder if there will be such a proposal for Tube ticket machines soon? None of them take the new £1 yet.

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SickyNicky · 21 Sep 2017

hairyhandedfool said:
I'm led to believe Northern are putting TVMs on every station they manage, though they may be the 'Card Only' variety.

Hmmm. Look forward to seeing them at Nethertown then.

Starmill · 21 Sep 2017

Romilly said:
It is misleading because the issue of valid itineraries, which in this context appears to be being used to refer to itineraries allowing minimum connection times, arises only in regard to Advance tickets, which are not the sort of tickets which this thread is about.

If travelling on flexible tickets, an itinerary with even a zero minutes (or negative) connection time is valid in the sense that the ticket is good for the situation where the first train is early and/or the second train is late, and you can get from the first to the second before the doors on the second start closing.

So being on a valid itinerary is if no consequence when one is not using an Advance ticket? Now that is misleading. Thank you for suggesting it. :roll:

pemma · 21 Sep 2017

Bletchleyite said:
It makes it a lot easier when someone handing a card over at a barrier is automatically in the wrong, though.

Well that's not correct. I've never had a Northern Parkeon TVM accept a credit card once and I've had both Mastercard and Visa credit cards with 3 different banks. The same cards have never been rejected at ticket offices and other than at Northern TVMs I can only think of two occasions when a credit card transaction I've made hasn't worked first time - once when a contactless transaction was rejected but it worked when entering the PIN and another time when a waiter had a faulty portable machine. How would I (or another passenger) be in the wrong because Northern's TVMs are always dodgy?

Bletchleyite · 21 Sep 2017

I've never, ever had a LM TVM that wasn't out of order reject my card. And that's easy to deal with, because even if it isn't reported the RPIs will know because more than one person will show up from that station ticketless.

Perhaps Northern need to stop buying cheap parking-meter rubbish and buy proper TVMs that work properly from Shere or Scheidt & Bachmann? And spend the time to calibrate the screens properly - the issues you get on GTR with screens not responding do not occur on any other TOC, which shows where the blame lies.

But like GTR, Northern are institutionally incompetent, and as long as senior management can be TUPEd in, they will remain so whether SercoNed, Arriva or anyone else are in charge.

Starmill · 21 Sep 2017

SickyNicky said:
Hmmm. Look forward to seeing them at Nethertown then.

Have you been to Pevensey Bay or Doleham recently?

Starmill · 21 Sep 2017

MichaelAMW said:
You make it sound as if catching a connection below the minimum connection time is some kind of offence. A connection that is not "valid" is not forbidden; it just means that you can't complain if you fail to make the second train.

You've hit the nail on the head. Can you complain that you've missed your connection by the requirement to stand in a queue to buy a ticket when it wasn't a valid connection?

The NRCoT makes no mention of connections having to be part of a valid itinerary, even assuming we could be clear about what that actually is. (I presume you simply mean one that keeps to the minimum connection times.)

But valid travel itineraries are defined and are quite important. You need one to be covered for delay compensation or altern transport. You can't just ignore them because you're using a walk up ticket, especially one that you don't yet have.

pemma · 21 Sep 2017

Bletchleyite said:
I've never, ever had a LM TVM that wasn't out of order reject my card. And that's easy to deal with, because even if it isn't reported the RPIs will know because more than one person will show up from that station ticketless.

Perhaps Northern need to stop buying cheap parking-meter rubbish and buy proper TVMs that work properly from Shere or Scheidt & Bachmann? And spend the time to calibrate the screens properly - the issues you get on GTR with screens not responding do not occur on any other TOC, which shows where the blame lies.

But like GTR, Northern are institutionally incompetent, and as long as senior management can be TUPEd in, they will remain so whether SercoNed, Arriva or anyone else are in charge.

And when you've got machines accepting debit cards but not credit cards and poorly trained RPIs they are going to try to accuse the passenger of not having a working card if some people turn up with TVM issued tickets and others say they couldn't get the machine the work.

I've had issues with screens not calibrated properly with both Northern and ATW machines. (The ATW ones also have poor printing quality - at least the Northern ones have good quality printing.) Never had any problem whatsoever with the Virgin or TPE TVMs.

You keep saying Northern should be introducing PF schemes but until they replace all the TVMs installed by the old franchise with more reliable ones, as well as providing new ones which work properly at stations without them, they are in no position to introduce a PF scheme.

Wallsendmag · 21 Sep 2017

Bletchleyite said:
I've never, ever had a LM TVM that wasn't out of order reject my card. And that's easy to deal with, because even if it isn't reported the RPIs will know because more than one person will show up from that station ticketless.

Perhaps Northern need to stop buying cheap parking-meter rubbish and buy proper TVMs that work properly from Shere or Scheidt & Bachmann? And spend the time to calibrate the screens properly - the issues you get on GTR with screens not responding do not occur on any other TOC, which shows where the blame lies.

But like GTR, Northern are institutionally incompetent, and as long as senior management can be TUPEd in, they will remain so whether SercoNed, Arriva or anyone else are in charge.

Work properly and S&B in the same sentence that made me laugh oh and its Worldline not Shere they bought the company years ago

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sheff1 · 21 Sep 2017

Bletchleyite said:
the issues you get on GTR with screens not responding do not occur on any other TOC, which shows where the blame lies.

They have occurred to me with EMT a few times - the last only this week.

Bletchleyite said:
I've never, ever had a LM TVM that wasn't out of order reject my card. And that's easy to deal with, because even if it isn't reported the RPIs will know because more than one person will show up from that station ticketless.

And when only one person wishing to pay by card has boarded that train at that station ?

I think we can guess what might happen - Northern RPIs have already been reported as trying to issue penalty fakes to people coming from stations with no ticketing facilities at all.

Bantamzen · 22 Sep 2017

jcollins said:
A
I've had issues with screens not calibrated properly with both Northern and ATW machines. (The ATW ones also have poor printing quality - at least the Northern ones have good quality printing.) Never had any problem whatsoever with the Virgin or TPE TVMs.

I've had at least on issue with a VTEC TVM being poorly calibrated in the last few weeks, and they are the new ones installed at Leeds! Saying that the worst touchscreens that I have encountered are Santander's new ATMs, some of them feel like they have been calibrated by a rather inebriated person to say the least. Northern's are generally OK from my experience (once a month renewing my MCard), although one had ran out of tickets but still processed my transaction and loaded the card before telling me it couldn't produce the counter-ticket. In the end I had to go to the Metro Travel Centre and it's never-ending queue to get one printed, and it seems this is quite a regular occurrence. The TVMs should at least not accept the MCard transactions if tickets are not available to print. I've yet to use the latest type so can't comment on these.

pemma · 22 Sep 2017

Bantamzen said:
I've had at least on issue with a VTEC TVM being poorly calibrated in the last few weeks, and they are the new ones installed at Leeds! Saying that the worst touchscreens that I have encountered are Santander's new ATMs, some of them feel like they have been calibrated by a rather inebriated person to say the least. Northern's are generally OK from my experience (once a month renewing my MCard), although one had ran out of tickets but still processed my transaction and loaded the card before telling me it couldn't produce the counter-ticket. In the end I had to go to the Metro Travel Centre and it's never-ending queue to get one printed, and it seems this is quite a regular occurrence. The TVMs should at least not accept the MCard transactions if tickets are not available to print. I've yet to use the latest type so can't comment on these.

I should have made clear I was talking about the VTWC machines. I've never used a VTEC TVM.

theblackwatch · 22 Sep 2017

crehld said:
Until we get any corroborating information from Norther staff or some sort of official statement from Northern, this seems to just be an overzealous guard wanting to discourage the sale of tickets on board.

Or put into other words, perhaps "making things up". :lol:

hairyhandedfool said:
I'm led to believe Northern are putting TVMs on every station they manage, though they may be the 'Card Only' variety.

My local station has a clunky card only machine (on one of the 2 platforms). Given that there are often 10-20 passengers boarding on each platform around the same tim (as the trains roughly pass there), I wonder how long it would take for every passenger who needed a ticket to actually use the machine!

pemma · 22 Sep 2017

hairyhandedfool said:
I'm led to believe Northern are putting TVMs on every station they manage, though they may be the 'Card Only' variety.

The franchise agreement specifies EVERY station in Greater Manchester must get a TVM - this includes stations like Manchester United and Denton. However, apart from a similar requirement in the Leeds area and a minimum number of additional TVMs across the network, there's no requirement for every station in counties like Cheshire, Lancashire, Cumbria etc. to get TVMs.

Merseysider · 22 Sep 2017

TVMs at MUFC and Denton etc would be a waste of money surely?

Mathew S · 22 Sep 2017

Merseysider said:
TVMs at MUFC and Denton etc would be a waste of money surely?

Required in the franchise agreement I believe as they'd be included in 'every station in Greater Manchester'. Waste of money? Absolutely. But of course this is the DfT...

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hairyhandedfool · 22 Sep 2017

jcollins said:
The franchise agreement specifies EVERY station in Greater Manchester must get a TVM - this includes stations like Manchester United and Denton. However, apart from a similar requirement in the Leeds area and a minimum number of additional TVMs across the network, there's no requirement for every station in counties like Cheshire, Lancashire, Cumbria etc. to get TVMs.

My understanding (of every station) comes from a member of the 'retail team' rather than the franchise requirement, though I concede that there is the possibility that I might have mis-understood something that was said.

ainsworth74 · 22 Sep 2017

I think there is a requirement but I'm under the impression that Northern are making representations to the DfT that it'd clearly crackers and a waste of money to install at some stations (Redcar British Steel and Teesside Airport on my line for example).

pemma · 22 Sep 2017

Do the new style TVMs give train running information? If they do perhaps Northern see them as a 2 in 1 solution for rural stations.

pemma · 22 Sep 2017

hairyhandedfool said:
My understanding (of every station) comes from a member of the 'retail team' rather than the franchise requirement, though I concede that there is the possibility that I might have mis-understood something that was said.

Someone said in another thread they have to 'Install a TVM on all stations with a footfall over 3,000pa by 31/03/2021' That'll be in addition to providing a machine at every GM station. So if that's correct it'll mean every station, apart from some of the very lightly used stations like Ince & Elton, will need a TVM.

Darandio · 22 Sep 2017

ainsworth74 said:
I think there is a requirement but I'm under the impression that Northern are making representations to the DfT that it'd clearly crackers and a waste of money to install at some stations (Redcar British Steel and Teesside Airport on my line for example).

And i've no doubt that although it clearly is crackers, the DfT will somehow insist on it anyway!

lejog · 22 Sep 2017

jcollins said:
Someone said in another thread they have to 'Install a TVM on all stations with a footfall over 3,000pa by 31/03/2021' That'll be in addition to providing a machine at every GM station. So if that's correct it'll mean every station, apart from some of the very lightly used stations like Ince & Elton, will need a TVM.

There's a requirement (Clause 69.1.c) that a "Ticket Retail Facility" is required at every station with more than 3,000 passengers from 2021. The major distinction from a TVM appears to be that TOD is not a requirement.

There's also a requirement (69.1.d) that at least one TVM offering multiple methods of payment be installed at all stations in the "Metropolitan Service Area". This is defined (p208) as a seemingly random list of stations mainly in Merseyside, Greater Manchester, South and West Yorkshire, but also Cheshire, Lancashire and Cumbria (Millom?). Its certainly not all stations in the area - stations between Victoria and Walsden (including Rochdale) are excluded, while stations Todmorden to Leeds are in. But yes Denton and Man U are there. The list looks like a cockup to me.

I cant see a specific requirement that every station in Greater Manchester gets a TVM,

pemma · 22 Sep 2017

^ What Northern managed GM stations which did not have a TVM on the franchise start date aren't listed?

I wonder if Arriva could argue credit/debit card and Apple/Andriod Pay are multiple methods of payment?

lejog · 22 Sep 2017

jcollins said:
^ What Northern managed GM stations which did not have a TVM on the franchise start date aren't listed?

I wonder if Arriva could argue credit/debit card and Apple/Andriod Pay are multiple methods of payment?

I don't have a list of GM stations without TVMs in my head, but Moston didn't have one and is not in the list (although I seem to remember one recently was trialled there?).

I doubt that's the intention of the requirement, it looks to me like a possible precursor to a penalty fares system across the main urban areas to me. I'm not too bothered about the cynical comments (mine included) about the stations listed, the contract establishes a requirement of x TVMs for a price of £y. When the details are finally sorted out (and presumably Millom dropped and Moston added), x and y can be adjusted as necessary.

pemma · 23 Sep 2017

lejog said:
I don't have a list of GM stations without TVMs in my head, but Moston didn't have one and is not in the list (although I seem to remember one recently was trialled there?).

I doubt that's the intention of the requirement, it looks to me like a possible precursor to a penalty fares system across the main urban areas to me. I'm not too bothered about the cynical comments (mine included) about the stations listed, the contract establishes a requirement of x TVMs for a price of £y. When the details are finally sorted out (and presumably Millom dropped and Moston added), x and y can be adjusted as necessary.

One thing I've noticed is the minimum number of 'smart TVMs' Northern are required to install is quite small and Northern appear to have installed quite a number of these already - some replacing existing TVMs. Does this mean there's going to be another type of more basic TVM appearing at lesser used stations or have Northern decided to fit 'smart TVMs' at all stations which are getting new ones?

TUC · 23 Sep 2017

lejog said:
There's a requirement (Clause 69.1.c) that a "Ticket Retail Facility" is required at every station with more than 3,000 passengers from 2021. The major distinction from a TVM appears to be that TOD is not a requirement.

Although if you're going to the expense of installing a TVM why not include TOD as well?

paul1609 · 24 Sep 2017

Every Marshlink station now has a TVM with TOD including Doleham which has 3 trains a day and at which I haven't see anybody get on at in the last 15 years! The comms to the TVM and passenger information screen are by satellite.

hairyhandedfool · 24 Sep 2017

TUC said:
Although if you're going to the expense of installing a TVM why not include TOD as well?

Cost maybe?

It may not actually cost much more to have the feature (I genuinely don't know if there is a charge for accessing the database, or if there would be extra data charges from the phone/internet line provider), but if the TVM supplier wants more money for the 'extra features' then the cost of not having it is less. This is just a suggestion.

pemma · 24 Sep 2017

hairyhandedfool said:
Cost maybe?

It may not actually cost much more to have the feature (I genuinely don't know if there is a charge for accessing the database, or if there would be extra data charges from the phone/internet line provider), but if the TVM supplier wants more money for the 'extra features' then the cost of not having it is less. This is just a suggestion.

Someone said TOCs get something like 25p commission if passengers use TOD after booking on a rival's site. If that's true it'll explain why TOCs want you to use TOD where available opposed to first class post.

Starmill · 3 Oct 2017

jcollins said:
^ What Northern managed GM stations which did not have a TVM on the franchise start date aren't listed?

I wonder if Arriva could argue credit/debit card and Apple/Andriod Pay are multiple methods of payment?

Do any of Northern's ticket machines accept cash? Apart from the S&B machines at Leeds, Manchester Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Street I can't think of any.

Northern getting tough... (on board ticket sales)

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