Northern telling passengers BOJ not permitted on Off-Peak Day Return

Solent&Wessex · 25 Sep 2017

sheff1 said:
If I could "dig around in manuals" 40 years ago, I see no reason why people can't do the same now. Especially as "digging around" is much easier with modern IT as has been confirmed a couple of posts back.

I do not accept that people are required to work from their 'knowledge' if that 'knowledge' is incorrect - which it clearly was in the cases under discussion in this thread and others.

Because a) paper versions of those manuals no longer exist. b) on train staff do not have access to the online resource where this information is held. Some TOCs have apps or suchlike which will contain some information, but this is not universal nor is the content normally sufficient.

Instead If I have a query I have to ring the customer service controller via telephone in the control centre. This needs time and a phone signal that doesn't keep cutting out. It also relies on them obtaining and passing the correct information to you, which certainly is not always the case.

RailUK Forums

Harpers Tate · 25 Sep 2017

Imagine (if you will) a situation where a train driver relies wholly on his own certain knowledge (of the route, signalling, speed restriction, rolling stock performance, whatever) without any recourse to updates and changes, or even when it is and always has been wrong; and that a "blind eye" is turned to such behaviour even when an incident is the result.

I'm not suggesting the potential consequences are even remotely comparable, but hypothetically, IF the same significance were attached to customer service matters, we may quite well have a very different mind set across this part of the industry. And I mean both ways - when the customer is right AND when they are wrong.

Bletchleyite · 25 Sep 2017

Solent&Wessex said:
Because a) paper versions of those manuals no longer exist. b) on train staff do not have access to the online resource where this information is held. Some TOCs have apps or suchlike which will contain some information, but this is not universal nor is the content normally sufficient.

Instead If I have a query I have to ring the customer service controller via telephone in the control centre. This needs time and a phone signal that doesn't keep cutting out. It also relies on them obtaining and passing the correct information to you, which certainly is not always the case.

That is unacceptable, given that we all have brfares.com.

How hard would it be to have an official version of brfares.com-type-thing accessible easily and quickly via a guard's handheld device?

The telephone is such a quaint, old, inefficient and disruptive method of communication. No guard should need to be using it for that kind of purpose ever.

AlterEgo · 25 Sep 2017

It is not difficult to look at the restrictions applicable to a ticket. Many tickets have the restriction code printed on the front with a link, for example: www.nationalrail.co.uk/2c.

For those that don't, you can look at BR Fares - it is an exceptional resource.

hairyhandedfool · 25 Sep 2017

sheff1 said:
If I could "dig around in manuals" 40 years ago, I see no reason why people can't do the same now. Especially as "digging around" is much easier with modern IT as has been confirmed a couple of posts back.

I do not accept that people are required to work from their 'knowledge' if that 'knowledge' is incorrect - which it clearly was in the cases under discussion in this thread and others.

Did you spend your days looking everything up? or did you work on the basis that you have looked it up once or twice and so you knew you were right and didn't need to look it up again?

IT systems require many things to work properly, signal or internet connection is one and is not fool proof. Four of my seven hours on shift today was done without access to iKB (Knowledgebase) or any internet sites due to an issue with the internet connection, I'd love to know what sort of manuals I was supposed to use to check things were correct.

lejog · 25 Sep 2017

AlterEgo said:
It is not difficult to look at the restrictions applicable to a ticket. Many tickets have the restriction code printed on the front with a link, for example: www.nationalrail.co.uk/2c.

For those that don't, you can look at BR Fares - it is an exceptional resource.

Absolutely, frankly I despair of the excuses being trotted out here by TOC staff. Its a problem for the rail industry, burying your head in the sand and saying its all too difficult or pointing fingers elsewhere really isn't helpful.

When I posted earlier that I had serious problems with a guard refusing to accept that break of journey was permitted, it took a couple of seconds to google the restriction code printed on the ticket to show it was. Fortunately given the unprofessional reaction of the guard, I turned Voice Recorder on my phone at the same time.

lejog · 25 Sep 2017

hairyhandedfool said:
Did you spend your days looking everything up? or did you work on the basis that you have looked it up once or twice and so you knew you were right and didn't need to look it up again?

IT systems require many things to work properly, signal or internet connection is one and is not fool proof. Four of my seven hours on shift today was done without access to iKB (Knowledgebase) or any internet sites due to an issue with the internet connection, I'd love to know what sort of manuals I was supposed to use to check things were correct.

Why look up iKB? Information not readily available in the public domain isn't binding on customers according to consumer law. Occasional internet downtime is no excuse for not using the internet the 99.9% of the time it is available. Are you working at a ticket office without mobile internet access?

FenMan · 25 Sep 2017

hairyhandedfool said:
Did you spend your days looking everything up? or did you work on the basis that you have looked it up once or twice and so you knew you were right and didn't need to look it up again?

IT systems require many things to work properly, signal or internet connection is one and is not fool proof. Four of my seven hours on shift today was done without access to iKB (Knowledgebase) or any internet sites due to an issue with the internet connection, I'd love to know what sort of manuals I was supposed to use to check things were correct.

It would be easy to build an app to view restriction codes that works offline. The only surprise is that it hasn't been done already.

hairyhandedfool · 25 Sep 2017

lejog said:
Why look up iKB? Information not readily available in the public domain isn't binding on customers according to consumer law. Occasional internet downtime is no excuse for not using the internet the 99.9% of the time it is available....

iKB is the official source of information for staff, so it includes things staff might need to know, or need to find out, but which the general public does not need to know. I simply use it as an illustration of the limitations of the technology in use.

lejog said:
.... Are you working at a ticket office without mobile internet access?

iKB (and other staff only systems) can only be accessed from certain ip addresses, mobile internet is not included in that as one other forum member has already commented.

It should also be noted that some companies prohibit the use of mobile phones (or other similar technology) whilst on duty, or in a public facing position.

WelshBluebird · 25 Sep 2017

Can I just interject by saying we are talking about a question asked to the Northern social media team. I seriously doubt they have the same issues as a train guard would have with access to correct and up to date information!

pemma · 25 Sep 2017

WelshBluebird said:
Can I just interject by saying we are talking about a question asked to the Northern social media team. I seriously doubt they have the same issues as a train guard would have with access to correct and up to date information!

If you read the whole opening post and subsequent posts it's clear Northern guards also give incorrect information about BOJs and tell passengers that they should buy/should have bought a more expensive ticket than they need to.

lejog · 25 Sep 2017

hairyhandedfool said:
iKB is the official source of information for staff, so it includes things staff might need to know, or need to find out, but which the general public does not need to know. I simply use it as an illustration of the limitations of the technology in use.

iKB (and other staff only systems) can only be accessed from certain ip addresses, mobile internet is not included in that as one other forum member has already commented.

It should also be noted that some companies prohibit the use of mobile phones (or other similar technology) whilst on duty, or in a public facing position.

Yes, we've heard lots of excuses already. Yes I'm aware that iKB is a private intranet. As you say, an intranet should contain information customers don't need to know. Fine, that is the reason for the existence of intranets. But by definition in a ticket office passengers are going to ask for information they DO need to know. This information should not be hidden away on an secure intranet.

Mobile broadband dongles are relatively cheap and often used as backup devices for internet access from desktop computers if landline networks are down.

hairyhandedfool · 25 Sep 2017

lejog said:
Yes, we've heard lots of excuses already....

You know what? I'm done. Have a great evening.

sheff1 · 25 Sep 2017

hairyhandedfool said:
Did you spend your days looking everything up? or did you work on the basis that you have looked it up once or twice and so you knew you were right and didn't need to look it up again?

I have already answered those points. Repeatedly asking the same question with slightly different wording which does not change the meaning is not useful to advancing a discussion. It does, though, remind me of an exchange with two staff (the second joined in to back up the first) at Selby booking office a couple of months back. Every time I answered their question, they would ask again but with with slightly different phrasing. The whole thing continued for 5/6 mins but neither would look up the information which would have taken seconds*. Both swore that they were correct because they had worked there for xx years ....

* When I got to Doncaster I asked there and the booking clerk looked up the info straight away, gave me the details I needed and I was on my way in 30 seconds tops.

Solent&Wessex · 26 Sep 2017

lejog said:
Absolutely, frankly I despair of the excuses being trotted out here by TOC staff. Its a problem for the rail industry, burying your head in the sand and saying its all too difficult or pointing fingers elsewhere really isn't helpful.

When I posted earlier that I had serious problems with a guard refusing to accept that break of journey was permitted, it took a couple of seconds to google the restriction code printed on the ticket to show it was. Fortunately given the unprofessional reaction of the guard, I turned Voice Recorder on my phone at the same time.

lejog said:
Yes, we've heard lots of excuses already. Yes I'm aware that iKB is a private intranet. As you say, an intranet should contain information customers don't need to know. Fine, that is the reason for the existence of intranets. But by definition in a ticket office passengers are going to ask for information they DO need to know. This information should not be hidden away on an secure intranet.

Mobile broadband dongles are relatively cheap and often used as backup devices for internet access from desktop computers if landline networks are down.

I certainly do not make excuses, but I offer explanations.

I agree that the level of training and access to information is wholly inadequate. I have been saying so for the past 15 years in the industry, and I have tried to press management in various levels and companies to do something about it, but I get more sense talking to the pavement outside my house. I am not in a position to change the systems that I am given to work with. I happily use my own knowledge to access non-industry websites such as BRFares or others to find out information, or do my own research in my own time. But you have to recognise that the majority of staff are not so well motivated. It is a job, not a hobby. They will use the tools and information they are given by their employer and their manager. If those tools are useless or the information wrong, then that is what they will be working with.

Starmill · 27 Sep 2017

Bletchleyite said:
That is unacceptable, given that we all have brfares.com.

How hard would it be to have an official version of brfares.com-type-thing accessible easily and quickly via a guard's handheld device?

The telephone is such a quaint, old, inefficient and disruptive method of communication. No guard should need to be using it for that kind of purpose ever.

AlterEgo said:
It is not difficult to look at the restrictions applicable to a ticket. Many tickets have the restriction code printed on the front with a link, for example: www.nationalrail.co.uk/2c.

For those that don't, you can look at BR Fares - it is an exceptional resource.

BRfares.com is an invaluable tool. I do not know where I would be without it.

However, it is not infallible. It is out of date, because of limitations on how often it can be updated, with some frequency. If you make a mistake because you are using BRfares and it is wrong, you have no comeback as it's not an official source.

Wolfie · 27 Sep 2017

Harpers Tate said:
He means (I think) he's 100% sure he's right.

Which is all very well as long as he is. The original point under discussion here is someone who is (presumably) sure he's right, but isn't.

I hope those present will forgive me if I say that, in my opinion, that is a situation that should NEVER happen. No customer should ever incorrectly be placed in any adverse situation (such as being required to pay an additional or larger fare, have their details taken or anything else) as a consequence of incorrect "knowledge" on the part of a customer-facing railway employee. Never. Not ever. At all.

The FIRST thing each and every railway employee should be required to do, in cases of dispute, BEFORE they start escalating the matter, is to verify their position. If they rely on their certain "knowledge" and are ultimately proven to have been wrong then they should at the very least be asked to explain themselves.

Absolutely right.

hairyhandedfool said:
Okay, so say I have come across a particular situation and I check the rules and deal with it as appropriate, well now I know the rule, right? So how long do I now go before I check it again? five times? fifty times? Once a month? Once a year?

What if I check it every ten times and on the thirty second occasion the rule has actually changed. What happens then? Do I just carry on as I always have?

How does the guard know who wants to pay the correct fare and who doesn't? Do people have in built displays showing how honest they are? Are staff psychic? How much trust do we put in the words of passengers if we *know* a rule to be different to what they say?

And my point was that if staff *know* something to be true, people are saying they should check it because a passenger comments that they are wrong. So if EVERYONE questions the Guard, or comes up with rules that don't actually exist, which does the Guard chase up and which does he stick to his guns?

If they have to check up everything then the situation actively promotes passengers making stuff up.

If you can say that the Guard need only check something if they believe they might not be right, then it doesn't change anything.

How much time do you think staff have to give to each thing that may or may not be true?

As a general rule, in that situation I would support the idea that a member of staff should check, but if everyone had a print out which contradicted the knowledge of the Guard (genuine or otherwise), how much time should the Guard take on things that appear to be far fetched?

If Guards had to double-check everything they had been told how much longer would it take to check the tickets of everyone on the train?

Benefit of the doubt, discretion and common sense are not wanted by the TOCs, they want staff to follow the rules they lay out, even the ones they don't tell anyone about.

Have you ever worked a train or railway ticket office? I don't think a day goes by when no-one questions my knowledge, and I'd say my knowledge is well above average. Do I give all of them the benefit of the doubt? Perhaps just those I can't prove are wrong? How long do I spend finding the proof? Or perhaps I know I can prove it so I don't need to look it up?

I haven't used the mobile machines since we had SPORTIS, but I would presume they can check restriction codes on their latest machines. If they had three minutes to check thirty random Off-Peak tickets, how long should they spend looking up restriction codes?

That's all well and good BUT if the TOCs don't choose to train their staff and those staff inconvenience customers as a result (at the very least the hassle of claiming back wrongly charged fares) then it should cost them financially. Every single such error should be cost the TOC a minimum £25 plus the ticket cost to the inconvenienced passenger. If it starts to cost the arrogant useless complacent companies money perhaps they will kick their managers to do their goddamn job properly! As it stands with the current legislation the situation stinks!

yorkie said:
Sadly such instances keep happening, sometimes the same name crops up time and time again; seven years ago I met zzip00 and successfully got their money back and yet the Guard in question is still at it, all these years - and several victims - later. In fact his x years of service is trotted out as an example of why he is right.

Certain train companies (they know who they are) need to buck their ideas up and deal with staff who cause their company to be in breach of the conditions as well as contract and consumer laws.

Sadly I think they never will

After the first instance said individual should have been retrained. If it happens again formal inefficiency procedures should have been invoked. Complete management fail - I rest my case re arrogant complacent useless companies.

pemma · 7 Oct 2017

Even worse today. A Northern guard told a passenger he should have got off the train at a station he split tickets at - the guard wasn't a newbie either.

ainsworth74 · 7 Oct 2017

jcollins said:
Even worse today. A Northern guard told a passenger he should have got off the train at a station he split tickets at - the guard wasn't a newbie either.

Been a while since I've heard that one!

Northern telling passengers BOJ not permitted on Off-Peak Day Return

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