New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

DelW said:

A few years ago First introduced Greyhound branded coaches between London and Portsmouth, but the service was quickly scaled back then stopped altogether. National Express run roughly one coach per hour through the day, with a very limited evening service, taking between 1hr50 and 2hr35 depending on time of day. At a maximum of around 50 passengers per coach that's a tiny fraction of what SWR carry.

I agree that for many journeys not involving London, a car offers advantages, but for many people it's not an option, for a whole range of reasons.

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All they need to do is advertise a fast coach service from Guildford to Portsmouth from the bus station to Portsmouth City Centre & Harbour with calls at Petersfield & Havant en route and low fares and oh dear...

It would only take someone like Stagecoach to do it and you know how ruthless that they can be and like I said it will make a killing, £10 return compared to £20 for the train which involves a considerable walk into town and there you go.

The consultation document includes an explicit statement that First class will not be available on the Reading route from the Dec 18 timetable change, and trains with first class that are still operating at that time will be declassified.

I think we expected that but it is now in writing.

Whoops, posted twice. Deleted.

Re the Portsmouth line, it looks like services are going from every 15 minutes off peak to every 20/10. Not very good for the roughly half the train(or so it seems to me) who get off at Guildford.

higthomas said:

Re the Portsmouth line, it looks like services are going from every 15 minutes off peak to every 20/10. Not very good for the roughly half the train(or so it seems to me) who get off at Guildford.

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Half the train have probably got off by Haslemere. Certainly the peaks are still standing only south of Guildford. Some northbound peak services are stood full by Haslemere.
This is the exact reason that Guildford should be omitted on two peak fasts especially as there will still be four other fast Guildford trains from Waterloo per hour at peak.

Well put the complaint in, in writing detailing your concerns.

I have some quite serious concerns over it and I think it will be a complete and unmitigated disaster, especially if the performance of the service over the last few weeks & months has been anything to go by.

I know a lot of it can be put at NRs door, however the way train crews are diagrammed and with a complete lack of diversionary route knowledge to counteract any possible disruption, it's just a recipe for meltdown.

The only line that I've seen any significant changes to is the WoE and that does seem to be an improvement, however that's counteracted by the cut in service from Weymouth to London, changes on the Reading line which seem most bizarre and the unnecessary splitting of the Guildford - Ascot service.

higthomas said:

Re the Portsmouth line, it looks like services are going from every 15 minutes off peak to every 20/10. Not very good for the roughly half the train(or so it seems to me) who get off at Guildford.

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I'd say that the 20/10 pattern is something that'll happen regardless of what other changes are made to the timetable for the actual thing, given the promises they've made.

They could always go and have a look at how it was done in the past, perhaps someone with some old timetables from the late 90s or early 2000s can have a look, I know we used to do some of the sequences that I've previously mentioned with fasts.

The only issue was that the timings weren't quite right and if you went too fast you got stopped outside Haslemere waiting for a down train to depart.

Having just looked again at the proposed Portsmouth direct timetable it seems this is exactly why they've gone for the 20/10 pattern, so that trains don't have to be looped at Haslemere, allowing them to fulfil their promise of having a "useable" Portsmouth service from Clapham Junction. Even with that pattern it seems that the fast gets quite close to the proceeding slow, which I suspect is (at least partly) why they've added Godalming to it, so that it doesn't completely catch up with it.

abn444 said:

Having just looked again at the proposed Portsmouth direct timetable it seems this is exactly why they've gone for the 20/10 pattern, so that trains don't have to be looped at Haslemere, allowing them to fulfil their promise of having a "useable" Portsmouth service from Clapham Junction. Even with that pattern it seems that the fast gets quite close to the proceeding slow, which I suspect is (at least partly) why they've added Godalming to it, so that it doesn't completely catch up with it.

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It will do, the signalling isn't up to the job and it only needs a SN service to run a little out of path and you'll be following it all of the way and with nowhere to loop anything until either Haslemere or Guildford the delays will be considerable, trust me we've been there before.

swt_passenger said:

Table 165 - Portsmouth - Southampton - Weymouth

Confirms that it is the Portsmouth to Southampton stopper that is extended to Weymouth, westbound it runs slightly later as far as Southampton and usually departs from Southampton at xx00 (probably with a long stop as it departs St Denys at xx47). So it ought to mean the Brockenhurst layover has gone, and yes, that is shown in table 158, the mainline services.

The new semifast SWR Portsmouth to Southampton looks like it will run from the Harbour in every hour, and from Fareham it will follow the existing flight of three fast trains, ie SN > GW > SN > SW. Has some extra peak hour stops at intermediate stations.

(I think I guessed at the possible position on the clock face a few months ago.)

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I think I was expecting it to be xx20-xx25 or so (out of SOU) as that would allow it to give a 20/40 type pattern both with the GWR fast and with the existing stopper. Appreciate this may not be possible at the Portsmouth end.

I'd have probably stopped it at Woolston and Netley as well to give those two stations two an hour, but appreciate again that it may not be possible to fit this in. It's good to see a faster service eastbound from St Denys, shame I'm not living near there any longer though...

Also good to see an hourly service from Beaulieu Road. From my own POV it looks like evening walks in the months with sensible daylight (i.e. April to August) from, and finishing at, Beaulieu Road, followed by a drink at the Drift Inn afterwards, will now be more feasible with returns to SOU as late as 2230 (as opposed to the current 1838).

Would agree that it would be better to keep the two London trains going to Weymouth. One problem with both the current timetable and this one is the uneven service from places like Christchurch and Pokesdown. Way I'd have it TBH is scrap this somewhat gimmicky Portsmouth to Weymouth service (too slow to have real use as a through service) and run a Brockenhurst to Poole service which connects with the Weymouth service which skips New Milton/Christchurch at Brockenhurst.

There would then be a SOU-Brockenhurst all stations 'shuttle' which could then continue west as the Poole stopper or continue east to Portsmouth or London if operationally convenient.

One other issue is that the down semi-fasts to Eastleigh (and beyond) are both overtaken by the Weymouth/Poole fasts en route in the down direction. Can see you're going to get London-Eastleigh (and beyond) passengers changing at Winchester for a faster service; result, overcrowded Weymouth/Pooles and lightly-loaded semi-fasts north of Winchester.

In the peak this doesn't happen; why not run the off-peak timetable like the peak? i.e. run the semi-fast around xx14-xx16 rather than xx31-xx33. Little in the way of additionals from London to Winchester or Southampton either, just the existing 1748 retimed to 1753 - maybe there simply isn't room.

The Portsmouth Direct appears to regain peak additionals though.

For the Reading, I've noticed that none of the four (as will be) trains an hour go fast Staines to Ascot - could they not make two of them fast giving Bracknell and Wokingham faster London services, stopping at only the bigger stations (as well as giving places like Richmond and Twickenham faster services to Reading)? Do places like Virginia Water and Sunningdale really need 4 an hour?

I think you'll find the Virginia Water call is not only to connect with the Weybridge line, but it's also to do with the fact that it's a very well heeled & affluent area (some may say that I misspelt that!), as is Sunningdale.

Quite a lot of money in those quiet exclusive areas, like Wentworth & Sunninghill where the rich & famous live.

HarleyDavidson said:

I think you'll find the Virginia Water call is not only to connect with the Weybridge line, but it's also to do with the fact that it's a very well heeled & affluent area (some may say that I misspelt that!), as is Sunningdale.

Quite a lot of money in those quiet exclusive areas, like Wentworth & Sunninghill where the rich & famous live.

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Virginia Water isn't much busier than Martins Heron, but us commoners are apparently only worthy of a (reduced) 2tph service.

higthomas said:

Re the Portsmouth line, it looks like services are going from every 15 minutes off peak to every 20/10. Not very good for the roughly half the train(or so it seems to me) who get off at Guildford.

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I'm not pleased at all. On my way back there's a 27 minute gap which is completely unacceptable (from Guildford to Clapham ... 1750 next 1817).

GodAtum said:

I'm not pleased at all. On my way back there's a 27 minute gap which is completely unacceptable (from Guildford to Clapham ... 1750 next 1817).

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Put the feedback in and tell them. So far I haven't come across anyone who likes the proposed timetables, most think that they're a retrograde step with worst journey times & opportunities.

With no looping/overtaking booked to take place this proposed timetable is a disaster waiting to happen.

HarleyDavidson said:

They could always go and have a look at how it was done in the past, perhaps someone with some old timetables from the late 90s or early 2000s can have a look, I know we used to do some of the sequences that I've previously mentioned with fasts.

The only issue was that the timings weren't quite right and if you went too fast you got stopped outside Haslemere waiting for a down train to depart.

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Here is info from the timetable 2 June – 28 Sept. 2002. Waterloo – Portsmouth M -F offpeak.

08, first stop Woking, six more intermediate stops, arr. P. Harbour at 37 past the next hour.

23, pu Clapham J., 12 intermediate stops, arr. PH 59 past next hour.

38, as xx07 except stops at Godalming instead of Petersfield.

53, pu CJ, calls Woking, then everywhere except Worplesdon, Rowlands Castle, Bedhampton, arrives PH at 44 having taken 111 minutes.

As you said in an earlier post, the WoE line sees some improvements with slightly faster trains. But the consultation also refers to increased capacity. For the WoE line the proposed timetable won't bring that, except that there are a few morning peak trains into London that omit Woking, so they won't get any more overcrowded once they've left Basingstoke; and larger number in the evening peak that either omit Woking or are pick up only there. I wonder if they intend to enforce that in some way.

I tell you. I'm seriously worried about this proposed timetable, I just get the feeling that if they bring it in we'll find ourselves in Operation Princess territory, with trains delayed and cancelled left, right & centre.

All it needs is the existing timetable tweaked, so things like the Haslemere stopper being looped at Guildford, so the fast has a better run, leave the semi as it is and things will be fine.

adc82140 said:

Farnborough loses out- from 4tph off peak to 3.

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I'm seeing 4 per hour for both Farnborough and Fleet.

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Proposed timetable appears disaster for us. If you want to get to and from Gatwick with cases, no through WOE trains from and to beyond Salisbury will stop at CLJ.. You have to change at Salisbury up and Woking down with an extra wait of half an hour to boot.

At least, that's how I read it. Please tell me i'm wrong.

Have a look, you may find a change at Basingstoke is better. Or go Salisbury-Soton and then Soton - Gatwick.

Looks like for me the proposed timetable is crap Less trains from my local station and just about any journey to Basingstoke or Woking will possibly mean changing trains near Portsmouth or for Woking possibly having to go all the way into Waterloo

Goldfish62 said:

Personally, I'm far from happy. My local station, Martins Heron, misses out badly, with peak hours services reduced from 4tph to 2tph and the journey time to/from Waterloo increases by a couple of minutes.

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It is possible that it will be even be worse than 2tph on down trains. If the sets are turning round at Reading in 12 minutes then if a down train starts to nudge towards 10 late there is every likelihood that stops will be ripped out and it will run fast from Ascot so that its return will be on time (it happens far too often as it is on the current timetable).

If they are not turning round in 12 minutes at Reading then there will be periods every hour when there will be three SW sets in Reading at the same time (xx09-xx14 & xx39-xx44). These periods do not overlap with the GW North Downs services, so it is possible and in that case the stoppers would turn round in 19 minutes (as opposed to the current 30) but the platform occupancy of P5-P6 at Reading would not allow much leeway to absorb disruption on either route, especially if conflicting movements are involved (e.g a down train is trying to get in to P6 at the same time as an up train wants to leave P4).

HowardGWR said:

Proposed timetable appears disaster for us. If you want to get to and from Gatwick with cases, no through WOE trains from and to beyond Salisbury will stop at CLJ.. You have to change at Salisbury up and Woking down with an extra wait of half an hour to boot.

At least, that's how I read it. Please tell me i'm wrong.

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But for me. living in Overton, it's an improvement. I'll be able to get a through train to Clapham Junction, instead of having to change at Basingstoke.

Any major timetable change produces winners and losers. The one SWT introduced in 2004 was like that. Inevitably, there are compromises. The railway isn't big enough for everyone to have the service they'd like.

Of course, we hear more about the disadvantages than the advantages. All those who perceive problems should make sure they respond to the consultation, both as individuals and through local organisations who will be sending in their views.

HarleyDavidson said:

Have a look, you may find a change at Basingstoke is better. Or go Salisbury-Soton and then Soton - Gatwick.

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But it's still an extra change with cases (two, possibly three, if having to change at East Croydon as well. Also, unless SWR look at these matters closely, the cheapest advance fare is via Clapham Junction at present. I did look at those possibilities you mentioned in the past. Thanks for the suggestions though.

3141 said:

But for me. living in Overton, it's an improvement. I'll be able to get a through train to Clapham Junction, instead of having to change at Basingstoke.

Any major timetable change produces winners and losers. The one SWT introduced in 2004 was like that. Inevitably, there are compromises. The railway isn't big enough for everyone to have the service they'd like.

Of course, we hear more about the disadvantages than the advantages. All those who perceive problems should make sure they respond to the consultation, both as individuals and through local organisations who will be sending in their views.

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Yes, that's true, but I do think the major flows (Exeter, Yeovil, etc) should get more through services for air pax.

Looks like your response will balance mine.

I'm on the whole positive about the proposed timetable, but I emailed my feedback as requested, and this is what I said:

Table 149

I welcome the increase in the service at my home station of Staines. The Reading service is busy all day, so 4 tph will be a great improvement. The semi-fast Windsor via Hounslow is also great.

I understand this may be due to the level crossings in Egham limiting capacity, but I am nevertheless concerned about the loss of the direct service to Chertsey and Weybridge via Staines. There is a lot of traffic to and from secondary schools in Chertsey and the college in Weybridge - and those passengers will have to change at Virginia Water, making an already slow journey even less attractive. In addition, those wishing to travel from Staines, Ashford, Egham to Guildford or Woking (an already poorly connected journey) will have an additional change.

I am, however, intrigued about 'a Virginia Water to Weybridge shuttle service operating every 30 minutes calling only at Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Putney, Brentford and Hounslow'. That should be an interesting route!

Table 156

Is it really necessary for all four services to stop at Godalming? There is nothing of interest there.

Table 158

As a regular user of this line, I strongly support the acceleration of London - Weymouth trains, and I feel that an hourly service is appropriate.

Table 165

The new Weymouth - Portsmouth service, although an excellent idea, is a missed opportunity. The proposed service is too slow to be attractive, and, even more seriously, it does not continue to Portsmouth Harbour. Those wishing to visit the Gunwharf Quays shopping centre, the Isle of Wight, or the Historic Dockyard will still have to change trains, and Southampton will remain the easiest place to do this. Would it not make more sense to link this service with the new 'semi-fast' Southampton to Portsmouth Harbour service - and leave the stopping service in its current form? Or, if that is not possible, to at least extend the new service to the Harbour station?

TCDD said:

I'm on the whole positive about the proposed timetable, but I emailed my feedback as requested, and this is what I said:

Table 149

I welcome the increase in the service at my home station of Staines. The Reading service is busy all day, so 4 tph will be a great improvement. The semi-fast Windsor via Hounslow is also great.

I understand this may be due to the level crossings in Egham limiting capacity, but I am nevertheless concerned about the loss of the direct service to Chertsey and Weybridge via Staines. There is a lot of traffic to and from secondary schools in Chertsey and the college in Weybridge - and those passengers will have to change at Virginia Water, making an already slow journey even less attractive. In addition, those wishing to travel from Staines, Ashford, Egham to Guildford or Woking (an already poorly connected journey) will have an additional change.

I am, however, intrigued about 'a Virginia Water to Weybridge shuttle service operating every 30 minutes calling only at Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Putney, Brentford and Hounslow'. That should be an interesting route!

Table 156

Is it really necessary for all four services to stop at Godalming? There is nothing of interest there.

Table 158

As a regular user of this line, I strongly support the acceleration of London - Weymouth trains, and I feel that an hourly service is appropriate.

Table 165

The new Weymouth - Portsmouth service, although an excellent idea, is a missed opportunity. The proposed service is too slow to be attractive, and, even more seriously, it does not continue to Portsmouth Harbour. Those wishing to visit the Gunwharf Quays shopping centre, the Isle of Wight, or the Historic Dockyard will still have to change trains, and Southampton will remain the easiest place to do this. Would it not make more sense to link this service with the new 'semi-fast' Southampton to Portsmouth Harbour service - and leave the stopping service in its current form? Or, if that is not possible, to at least extend the new service to the Harbour station?

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Table 158 provides a quicker service to London for the expensive morning peak times trains. An earlier start 0539 and in London by 0822 from Weymouth. However off peak users will be in London after 1011 instead of the current 0953. During the day it is detrimental to Upwey, Moreton and Hamworthy users who now have to change trains and have a 20 minutes wait on their return journeys at Poole. Also affects school children retuning home with at least a 50 minute wait for a train. Expect there will be peak time evening restrictions out of Waterloo in the future.

Table 165 Weymouth to Portsmouth stopper makes no sense. Will be quicker to get the fast train and change at Southampton and Fareham if it's running late. Not really better connectivity

The Alton branch seems to loose out quite badly with only a few trains going into London. The new Portsmouth-Weymouth is a waste of time as it's probably quicker to get a fast to Southampton Central and then the GWR to Portsmouth (Harbour or Portsmouth & Southsea).

I hope that XC have the spare capacity as to get to Basingstoke from the west it's probably going to be easier to get the XC there.

What would have been handy though it'll never happen is if there was a "testing" journey planner that had all the same services for other TOCs but with the SWR ones being the proposed ones, then at least it would have been easier to work out the increases in journey times.

SpacePhoenix said:

The Alton branch seems to loose out quite badly with only a few trains going into London. The new Portsmouth-Weymouth is a waste of time as it's probably quicker to get a fast to Southampton Central and then the GWR to Portsmouth (Harbour or Portsmouth & Southsea).

I hope that XC have the spare capacity as to get to Basingstoke from the west it's probably going to be easier to get the XC there.

What would have been handy though it'll never happen is if there was a "testing" journey planner that had all the same services for other TOCs but with the SWR ones being the proposed ones, then at least it would have been easier to work out the increases in journey times.

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I think the Alton thing is a quirk of how they represent the timetable - there's no key as to what 'e' & 'f' actually means, (I was initially concerned too as I live in Alton), if you look at the morning peak for example, the 07:10 (replacing the 07:14 which I'd normally use), arrives in Woking at 07:46, then has an 'e' (column AZ) then in column BF you have a Woking to Waterloo fast service starting at 7:46.

The linking page has been updated by the way - there's a supporting document now, it doesn't talk about reducing Alton services - just an additional Farnham to Waterloo service at 5:23.