TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Oh and I agree, Meridians definitely over the HSTs. VTEC and XC HSTs are the best (although GWR and VTEC have jointly the best first class) but EM and GC HSTs are awful in my opinion.
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Will the East Midlands Trains franchise be renewed?
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InTheEastMids
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This has been somewhat done to death on here. There are 3 options for this
1. Extend TL Bedford services to Corby, leading to significantly slower commuting times for stations north of Bedford AND leaving you a couple of 700s down. This won't work for anybody
2. Take the proposed 2 trains/hour service and try and push them through the TL core. Good luck with that, and you'd need to add a follow-on order of 700s
3. Run it (as proposed) into STP, making it operationally separate from the rest of the TL setup. Why? It wouldn't get much management attention from GTR, you'd be better off leaving it in EMT, or setting it up as a micro-franchise in its own right
In both 1&2, you're also advocating using high-density 8-12 car trains on outer-suburban journeys. That won't be popular.
jamesontheroad
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This came up at the franchise consultation event I recently attended.
DfT are very clear that these services should use "high quality" EMUs, but appear in my mind to have left the door open for services switching to the Thameslink franchise. It's not what they have been saying but what they have not been saying that seems to suggest this.
Just my two cents.
Define significantly.
People should be aware that, all question of quality aside, bids are risk adjusted (these adjustments can go either way). I understand that both bids for SWF had a number of large (£multi million) risk adjustments, some of which increased the premiums payable.
I don't know the MEAT scores, but I do not believe that, citing Wellington's words at Waterloo (pun intended), "it was a close run thing", despite the process taking an eternity.
devonexpress
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If First Group win it id like to see a LMS inspired red and gold, im guessing they won't call it London Midland Scottish, but maybe, London Midland Railway?
thenorthern
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I would think that the local stock may be replaced during the next franchise as at the moment the oldest sprinters are 30 years old and the youngest ones are around 25 years old. The only EMT stock that was built post privertisation is the Class 222s and the current franchise which will last 12 years won't have seen any new trains.
mallard
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Apart from Grayling's bi-modes, which will result in slower services since they can't match the diesel performance of a 222 and the wiring south of Bedford is limited to 100mph operation with no plans to improve, there's zero chance of any new stock for the East Midlands. Maybe a few second-hand 170s, since GA and WMT seem to be intent on dropping them, but even then Northern will get priority.
There have been many comments in various threads over the years about how Stagecoach got a very bad deal when the stock from Central Trains was divided up between the East and West Midlands. EMT got some dreadful 158’s and 153’s and some of the 156’s weren’t that good. However, Stagecoach did a fantastic job of having them refurbished and most of them still look quite good.
Even though London Midland along with XC got the newer 170’s the West Midlands continued to get lots of additional new stock including the 172’s. Now with the new Abellio West Midlands Franchise we hear they are to get even more new stock. Surely now, despite the great way that Stagecoach have refurbished and maintained the old stock, the East Midlands must be due for new local trains. Knowing the luck of East Midlands passengers we will perhaps just get our now old 170’s back again!
43074
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The other suggestion making the rounds is that the revised paths in the new TL timetable extends journey times at the southern end of the route (EMT are said to be ''unhappy'' with this), so impacting on turnaround times at St Pancras and meaning more trains will be needed to provide the same level of service.
Personally I'm very happy to be getting extra HSTs though, but I hope it's a relatively short term fix so that journey times to Nottingham in particular can be improved soon.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Yes, but it does the opposite of what I think we need to be doing, modernising our railways.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
I believe it is the full franchise.
thenorthern
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The Liverpool to Norwich, Crewe to Derby and Robin Hood Line all used Class 170s to a certain extent in the Central Trains days. Your right about the Class 158s being improved as in some ways I think they have a nicer interior than the Class 170s. The Class 153s and 156s however feel a bit dated.
All the franchise, there were some benefits to having the two franchises separate but I don't think the current system is going to change.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
I really hope this is not the case. I frequently travel from London up to Derbyshire and I much prefer the Meridians to HST's.
Your belief is not really correct, in that DOO was not specified for SWR. I'm pretty certain that it wasn't what won First/MTR the franchise.
Gemz91
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I'm sure those who frequently squeeze onto severely over crowded class 153's in the Lincolnshire outback would appreciate the freed up units to strengthen their services if Meridians are to be used on the local routes.
swt_passenger
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I think your question betrays some misunderstandings. The franchise is intended to be renewed. However even if Stagecoach win the competition (as the incumbent), the post Aug 2019 franchise will still be a separate legal entity to the current one. If Stagecoach are not selected, then a new 'franchise' will not take it over, a different 'franchisee', ie operator (aka TOC) will take on the 'franchise'.
Some franchises have been 'extended' under the existing operator's agreement, or changed into management contracts for a few years, without competition, but these are not the normal procedures.
Class 170101
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How about using the similar Class 707s once they come off lease from SWR rather than build new Class 700s?
LNW-GW Joint
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I've seen somewhere that the OHLE WILL be upgraded south of Bedford.
Grayling has already promised "brand new bi-modes" for St Pancras services.
After that it's up to the bidders' ingenuity.
There could still be some franchise remapping, with the EMT and XC bids overlapping, plus the never-ending Liverpool-Norwich debate.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Due to Central Trains' seeming inability to diagram units sensibly, 170s appeared in all sorts of places but 156s and even 150s would appear on services such as Nottingham-Birmingham-Cardiff which with decent stock would have a hope of attracting business customers.
Suraggu
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Around the 0.4 billion figure was quoted.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I'm the opposite, whilst the seats could be improved, the HSTs have a much better ambience and are more fun to ride on!
You're more likely to get an actual seat too! Hopefully the next franchise can improve on the awful First/Standard class ratios, I mean it stupid to have almost half the train as first on a 4 car Meridian.
The VP185 makes a way better noise than the cummins QSK in the
I think I also prefer the 158s over the Meridians too
thenorthern
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East Midlands Trains will probably be one of the last to have DOO trains.
Compared to many TOCs East Midlands Trains are not technically very modern as as far as I am aware none of the fleet has proper information displays except the Class 222s and none of the fleet has automated announcements. There are other things as well like there are no zones for each portion of the train at stations and most stations don't even have a set stopping point on the platform for trains.
Compared to many TOCs East Midlands Trains are not technically very modern as as far as I am aware none of the fleet has proper information displays except the Class 222s and none of the fleet has automated announcements. There are other things as well like there are no zones for each portion of the train at stations and most stations don't even have a set stopping point on the platform for trains.
43096
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You need to take a closer look! There are car stop boards on EMT stations.
I was at a DFT presentation for the new franchise and I asked the very question about the wires south of bedford snot being suitable for speeds above 100mph and was immediately and quite forcibly told they WOULD be made good for 125 mph by the DFT chap there.
Bevan Price
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Very bad idea in my opinion. 5 coach Meridian has about 192 standard class seats.
2 x 2 coach 158 has about 260 standard class seats.
Also 158 is allowed to run at higher speeds than Meridian at some locations (e.g. parts of Hope Valley line.)
thenorthern
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Some do but many of the more rural ones don't.
The ones to watch out for are the ones you need to ignore like the boards at places like Thurgarton - they're set up for 1st gen/20m DMU sets like 120s and 150s and consequently with a 153/6/8 if you stop at them and release the doors you'll be off the platform. They really should have been removed by now!
Kneedown
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Seats are not the issue nowadays on 158's, but the lack of luggage space is. The only reason the seating capacity is so high on a 4 car 158 is that as many seats as possible were crammed into the 158's at the expense of luggage space. This was done when the idea was to still run only 2 car sets to Liverpool.
A 5 car Meridian would not result in overcrowding despite having less seats.
Whilst it is true that a 158 can utilise "SP" speed differentials on the route, a lot of those higher differentials are just a paper exercise and are actually unattainable. A 222 will easily maintain 158 timings over the Liverpool section of the route, as is demonstrated on Grand National days when 7 car Meridians regularly deputise.
On the Norwich side of the route, the current 45mph restriction between Ely North and Lakenheath would have an impact. Whether EMT continue to serve Norwich (and indeed Liverpool) will depend on the outcome of the consultation, although is that stretch of track not to be improved as part of East West rail?
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