Trainee Driver - Should I stay or should I go?

Hi

I am a trainee driver, having started around 8 months ago. I've gone through the school and learnt the rules with no issues, and always had positive feedback about my progress.

However recently I've been feeling like I'm really struggling with remember anything to do with the routes - I'm not technically learning the routes yet, I'm still in the middle of my 225 hours of driving, but even so, I'm struggling to remember even the simpler routes.

It got to a point that recently my DI was shouting and screaming at me in the cab after I forgot that we were being relieved at that location. I had just driven a route I'd never done before.

I've sat down and spoken to my line manager about this and I have an interview for On Board Supervisor imminently which I think I'd be a lot happier with, as I don't have to worry about routes at all. But naturally I'm feeling really disappointed with myself for getting this far and only just realising that it's probably not for me.

I would like to hear any stories of people that may have been through the same thing, or any advice they can offer me at this stressful time!

Josh

If your DI was literally shouting and screaming then I would firstly request a new DI.

Routes are complex things to learn, it’ll come with time don’t throw the job I or feel downhearted about it, it sounds like lke you’ve not got a very good Trainee / DI relationship to be honest.

My advise would be, unless you are actually unhappy in the role and don't believe it's for you then stick at it.
You will get all the time you need to route learn. You will only sign for them once you and only you are happy to.

Request a new d I as that is not professional at all. A trainee shouldn't be shouted at for that reason. Don't let yourself down now if this is the job you want to do

Try and push through it, use any help available to you and you'll be thankful you did later on.

It'll be worth it when you are passed out and driving on your own

Everyone through training has ups and down. That is par for the course and whatever other platitude I could say. It truly is how we deal with this things that makes us Drivers. There will be other times where the job will just get you down and it can be relentless at times. Again, par for the course. I do think that much of the training causes undue pressure on you guys and gals but it is worth it when you come out the other side. What I continue to always say it that these things just don't go away. Have a little faith, we all go through similar issues and it does eventually click in place.

On a couple of points. Your DI should not be shouting at you. Speak with your instructor and discuss how you want to go forward and discuss that you didn't feel that they should be speaking to you like that. I wouldn't go direct to your Manager but I would speak with your instructor first. Also discuss any issues you have rather than keeping them in. Discuss your progress and where you need more support and how to move forward with your training. If you don't get a decent resolution to any issues you have, then speak with your Line Manager.

Technically, your learning the routes. About 100hrs and I would expect a Trainee to have picked up at least one route by now and be capable of independently stopping at stations regardless of how familiar with a route they are. Vocational style learning is all about time. You would be surprised how much you are learning and it does click into place suddenly. Do you have assessments of any kind ? Does your Instructor quiz you on each route etc ? Until your sat down and asked about a route you often don't see how much you have retained. How much are you learning independently ? Have you been checking the sexy appendix and making your route maps ? Don't be reliant on specific route training or reliant on learning it as you drive it. You always need a bit of everything. Maybe ask your Instructor if you can conduct him over a route on a trip. Its a good route learning exercise and shows you how much you know.

In all honesty, is it the job that you feel you are unable to do or is it just issues with your Instructor ? Don't let the training impact on the job. Training is a means to an end and its an arduous journey for sure. 100-150 is still early days and is about that time where these kind of issues manifest. If you have been getting positive feedback then you have been showing you are capable. Is there something about the job that you don't like ? Is the job really not for you or are you just not coping with the training regime ? I've known a few to jack it in and one that jacked it in about a month after passing out. This isn't a job for everyone but don't quit because of a bad experience or bad Instructor. Think about everything before you make any rash decisions. Don't feel forced to stay either but make an informed choice and look at the future, rather than right now.

Is there other trainees on your course you can meet with and talk to. Find out what sort of level of knowledge they're up to at his point and methods they use to learn

Sounds to me you need a change of instructor more so than anything else. Don't pack the job in just yet without tackling this issue and trying a change of instructor first. You're not the first, and won't be the last, person to feel disheartened during training and it's imperative that during the testing times you grab hold of the situation with both hands and take control of your own training. Your instructor should be someone you get on with and can talk with frankly and openly about the direction you are heading in, not someone that makes you feel small or not wanting to carry on with the job. The only circumstances I can imagine that shouting at a trainee would be appropriate would be if you were about to do something life-threateningly dangerous, even then you'd like to think that the instructor would remain cool and deal with the situation. Anyway, I'll finish by saying you've got yourself into a glorious position, a position that many, many others on this forum, and up & down the country, are losing sleep over wanting to get to, I would give it another chance before you pack it in. Like others have said there often comes a day when it all clicks and all the stress was worth it. Good luck.

It's not designed to be easy, it takes a lot of training and even more thinking about, you're being paid a lot of money so you need to put the work in. As others have said, ask for a new instructor and put this behind you and carry on. Don't be afraid of challenging your instructor, despite what he probably thinks he isn't god! I've seen people at my depot in the same situation and I've seen them pull though and pass out. Just remember that learning your routes takes time and it takes some longer than others, try to stop stressing and you will find that it will all fall into place!
So chin up and get a grip of it!

For what it’s worth I agree with what everyone else has said, try with another instructor if you can.

I remember a few moments when my DI got a bit ‘snappy,’ but never shouting or screaming, and he was known as being the most exacting DI on the Depot. (He is an almost due for retirement ex-BR ‘lifer’ though.)

This would have been when I was making a stupid mistake where I should have known better, forgetting to switch over the ETS on a HST when changing ends springs to mind. Certainly not the first time of doing something.

Just think how many applied for your job and how well you’ve done to get this far!

Firstly, as the others, it sounds as though a change of DI is needed. At my place there is a mandatory swap half way through anyway, I'm on my second DI and I've not had either of them come even close to shouting at me. Expect for them to point out areas where you can improve though shouting just isn't constructive. Forgetting to put the DRA in might result in a bit of bother if you were being relieved during an assessment but I don't see why a DI should be roasting you for that (or similar) halfway through trainkng.

I don't know if you learn a core route, do your Initial Competence Assessment/Part 6 based on that then go route learning on the other routes, or if you sign all routes prior to doing your ICA/Part 6. The basic bits from what I can tell so are braking points, where the monitors/stop marks are and what routes you can take from signals (others may have differing opinions). I'd recommend getting at least braking points and momitors/stop marks in a notebook which you can read from time to time.

100 odd hours is far too early to be thinking of quiting because you aren't picking up the routes. It sounds like you are putting way too much pressure on yourself, not helped by an unreasonable di. It sounds like you definitely need a new di, and a new approach. Relaxing and trying to enjoy it should help you develop your driving technique, and pick up more knowledge.

With the route knowledge you need to build it up layer by layer. First of all get the station names and order in your mind, and then get a fair idea in your mind of what each station looks like when approaching in each direction. Then start taking written notes of where your di is telling you to shut off power/break for a given station eg. Shut off at the substation, break at the bridge/ shut off when you reach 60mph, break at the tp hut/ shut off at the coasting board, break at foot crossing. In your own time try and memorise this. It is amazing how much you start to pick up of a route when you remember these things.

On top of this you obviously should be studying route maps for line speeds, track layouts, crossovers, signals, routing indications, level crossings and names etc etc. Once again build your route knowledge in layers, focussing on one aspect at a time.

Once again 100 odd hours is very early to be stressing so much about your route knowledge. At that stage I was mainly getting worked up about my driving technique ie driving to signals, where to break for a station when you see it ahead of you, braking technique down the platform. It is very early days, so I urge you to stick with it. Remember 225 hours is the minimum, I did 350 before taking my final, and my route learning came afterwards.

I just want to say as well, that now should be the time that you focus on your driving technique, retaining your rules and traction knowledge. Obviously all TOCs are different, however at mine the only route knowledge required for my final was the core route i.e. Clapham to Woking, and we had a whole week during the hours dedicated to learning that route. Even then it wasn't to the detail required for a Drivers route assessment to become productive. My route learning took 4 months, and took place after passing my final enabling me to concentrate wholly on that. If it is a similar system at your TOC I really do urge you to carry on and get to your final. Surely there will be more opportunities for OBS down the line?

It seems a shame to throw it away at this early stage.

Btw being relieved another driver would be stated on your schedule card, and is nothing to do with route knowledge. My DI used to ask me questions about the content of my schedule card, getting me to explain every aspect of it. If your DI doesn't do that, analyse it at the start of each shift and ask if you are unsure about any aspect of it. Schedule cards do take a bit of getting used to, plus your manager/DI should be able to provide you with a list of abbreviations.

Good luck, and hope it works out whatever you decide !!!!!!

Get another DI all DI's teach in different ways, also have you asked your di to drive the route and commentate to you while your in the second seat so you can take notes/maps for your own reference and learning?

Echo what others have said - don’t give up, you might regret it later.

The sheer amount of information is a lot to take in, but it does all click into place eventually and that comes with time and repetition.

Definitely ask for a different DI, we’re all different and maybe his character doesn’t match yours.

The issue here is the DI. Shouting at a trainee is unacceptable. A DI who does so does not have the right temperament to be a DI. You would be entirely justified in requesting a different DI.

As for the route learning, forget about it for now. Learn to drive a train first.

There's no way that a di should be shouting at you because you forgot you were being relieved.

Hopefully your dm will sort a new Di for you so can get a different perspective.

Your 225 hours is not for route learning. It is technical driving experience. Having said that, if after 220 hours you hadn't learnt anything about a route you've driven over every day then that might be a warning bell to future route learning.

I'd definitely stick with it. Your initial driver training and 1st year productive are going to be hardest parts of your career. In terms of long term job security driving it will outweigh obs so it's worth sticking at it.

Regarding the issue about being relieved. Does your di give you a photocopy of his schedule card? Are your schedule cards available the day before? When you get the schedule card, go through it line by line with a highlighter pen if necessary. I've known people use 3 different colour highlighters to emphasise certain things like relief or attach/detatch etc etc. Also if your schedule card shows the duty number of who you relieve/relives you then write their name next to it which was also help get to know who is who if you're new to a depot (a bit more complicated if other depots involved).

Regards picking up some route knowledge. For the routes you use regularly, try an set a micro target. Say for example, for 2 days I'll learn speeds between A and B. However keep it small. Your 225 hours is primarily about learning and refining you driving technique.

Filton Bank said:

The issue here is the DI. Shouting at a trainee is unacceptable. A DI who does so does not have the right temperament to be a DI. You would be entirely justified in requesting a different DI.

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My thoughts entirely. For one adult to be shouting at another, be that in major circumstances or this minor one of forgetting something, is utterly startling in a work situation that requires people to be calm, level headed and rational. He is the OP's teacher and if he can't put himself in their shoes and recognise (remember?) that these things take a while to come together then he shouldn't be let anywhere near the training world.

I don't need experience as a train driver to see that there is something seriously wrong here. Of course, there may be factors that have led to the provocation and out-of-order response of this strange individual, and it might later on be worth reflecting on those to see where you need to target your development efforts most. However, that would normally all be a positive part of the relationship with a trainer/instructor/coach/mentor etc.

theironroad said:

There's no way that a di should be shouting at you because you forgot you were being relieved.

Hopefully your dm will sort a new Di for you so can get a different perspective.

Your 225 hours is not for route learning. It is technical driving experience. Having said that, if after 220 hours you hadn't learnt anything about a route you've driven over every day then that might be a warning bell to future route learning.

I'd definitely stick with it. Your initial driver training and 1st year productive are going to be hardest parts of your career. In terms of long term job security driving it will outweigh obs so it's worth sticking at it.

Regarding the issue about being relieved. Does your di give you a photocopy of his schedule card? Are your schedule cards available the day before? When you get the schedule card, go through it line by line with a highlighter pen if necessary. I've known people use 3 different colour highlighters to emphasise certain things like relief or attach/detatch etc etc. Also if your schedule card shows the duty number of who you relieve/relives you then write their name next to it which was also help get to know who is who if you're new to a depot (a bit more complicated if other depots involved).

Regards picking up some route knowledge. For the routes you use regularly, try an set a micro target. Say for example, for 2 days I'll learn speeds between A and B. However keep it small. Your 225 hours is primarily about learning and refining you driving technique.

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I couldn't agree more with this. Really hoping the original poster comes back and tells us he's sticking with it for now. I certainly didn't find driver training easy either. I'm currently in PQ2 period, and all the training and stress has been worth it!

OP, sent you a DM

For 220 hours I had the same DI. I felt ready but knew I wasn’t getting along with the DI like I’d hoped. Turns out he didn’t like me at all (or anyone else for that matter, he’s a very clicky person, something I didn’t know at the time). Only after I did my last 40 odd hours with a new instructor did I realise just how poor of an instructor the first one was.

He’s been driving for 25 years and is fantastic at his driver job. But as an instructor, he was terrible and left out lots of important info I should of been told. After 30 minutes with my new instructor I was actually quite angry I’d spent so long with the first one! I honestly couldn’t believe the difference. If I’d of stayed with the first one for my full hours I can 100% say I’d of been wrong routed in my first week alone! (Can’t take a green on the up at Warrington BQ, simple bit of information that wasn’t relayed to me). So many other things too. My new instructor put me at ease, was fantastic and although he was a complete nut job when not in the cab, he was a true professional once in the cab.

I learnt so much in one day with a new instructor. What I’m basically saying is, change your DI. I used the minimum of 265 hours but another person on the course was granted 400+ (I don’t know the true figure but I know it was over 400). Some people take longer to click, but when it does it just flies in. It’s a weird feeling. I got to about 200 before it all snapped into place. You won’t believe me, I didn’t believe the people that told me, but it does just click!

Don’t give up here. You’ll regret it for life if I’m honest. Once you know the routes it’s soooooo easy! (In a responsible way of corse!)

But honestly, get that DI changed. And if he raises his voice at you again, politely remind him you’re not a dog! (This happened to me on my first month when the phone rang and I honestly couldn’t work out what to do. There’s so much new stuff going on when you’re new to the job that simple things can seem impossible. You’re not alone.)

Good luck.

Hi everyone

Firstly sorry for the delay in replying, it's obviously been a very stressful time and I've had a lot going on in my mind.

I want to thank everyone who has responded with positive advice and it has really helped me knowing that other people have been in similar situations.

I had a very long conversation with my manager today we'll assured me there is plenty of time to practice the driving and routes. My manager assured me I'll have a new DI, and I can always request more time for driving with a DI and more time route learning should I need it.

I've mulled it over and decided I'm gonna give it my absolute best and make all the effort I can to succeed. It's been a very heavy 8 months especially as I wasn't from the railway before but seems a waste to throw everything away.

Again thanks for everyone for your replies

brightonjosh88 said:

Hi everyone

Firstly sorry for the delay in replying, it's obviously been a very stressful time and I've had a lot going on in my mind.

I want to thank everyone who has responded with positive advice and it has really helped me knowing that other people have been in similar situations.

I had a very long conversation with my manager today we'll assured me there is plenty of time to practice the driving and routes. My manager assured me I'll have a new DI, and I can always request more time for driving with a DI and more time route learning should I need it.

I've mulled it over and decided I'm gonna give it my absolute best and make all the effort I can to succeed. It's been a very heavy 8 months especially as I wasn't from the railway before but seems a waste to throw everything away.

Again thanks for everyone for your replies

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Good to hear mate, always worth another go if the opportunity is there. If this time it still doesn't work out then at least you can look back and say you tried with all your best.

That’s good news. Hopefully all will go well. Some lovely words of advice too.

Excellent news mate. Sounds like your manager is being supportive which is great.

Very happy for you, best of luck. Please keep us all updated with how you get on .

Absolutely request a new DI if that is at all possible.
As I have mentioned on this website before, I got through my 225 hours only to be told that I wasn't going to be put through the final testing due to my DI reporting I wasn't concentrating. Absolute bollocks. My DI's methods of training were appalling. And I experienced him shouting at me on a couple of occasions. And everyone else knew damn well that it was entirely due to him and me not getting on. 11 years have passed since that happened and I still absolutely 100% believe that if i had a different DI I would now be driving trains. the TOC concerned has since changed things so that a trainee does half of those hours with one DI and the remaining half with another. I was never offered a change of DI. I did consider at some point requesting a change of DI and it is to my regret that I didn't. I am so tempted to name the TOC and the DI but I suppose I'd better not as it could possibly land me in hot water.

Cambus731 said:

Absolutely request a new DI if that is at all possible.
As I have mentioned on this website before, I got through my 225 hours only to be told that I wasn't going to be put through the final testing due to my DI reporting I wasn't concentrating. Absolute bollocks. My DI's methods of training were appalling. And I experienced him shouting at me on a couple of occasions. And everyone else knew damn well that it was entirely due to him and me not getting on. 11 years have passed since that happened and I still absolutely 100% believe that if i had a different DI I would now be driving trains. the TOC concerned has since changed things so that a trainee does half of those hours with one DI and the remaining half with another. I was never offered a change of DI. I did consider at some point requesting a change of DI and it is to my regret that I didn't. I am so tempted to name the TOC and the DI but I suppose I'd better not as it could possibly land me in hot water.

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It also wouldn’t help the situation at all either. Sorry you had this experience. I believe that if I didn’t change DI then I too wouldn’t be a driver now. I feel very lucky after reading your post. Must be horrible knowing that you can do the job but didn’t have the proper training. Is it possible for you to go for it again??

As someone currently waiting to be given a DI... this is my biggest fear!

Cambus731 said:

I am so tempted to name the TOC and the DI but I suppose I'd better not as it could possibly land me in hot water.

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My TOC changes DI at 100hrs so its probably my TOC.

Before I had my first DI, I was worrying in the same way GNDriver was, however once I'd been with my first DI for a couple of weeks, those worries went away. Same before the mandatory swap. I am the sort who does worry easily too, though now it's more about the Initial Assessment.

I'd like to think that these days a trainee in the situation Cambus describes would be able to get hold of their training records and start contacing other TOCs. Obviously a lot would depend on the situation and questions would be asked by any potential new TOC, though I did hear that it has occasionally happened in another thread. I'd presume there are a few mitigating factors which might make it a possibility.

There are unfortunately trainees who don't make it for a reason, if someone has had triple the minimum hours and multiple DIs have said they won't make it then I'd imagine it's a real possibility they'd have to look elsewhere.

GNDriver said:

As someone currently waiting to be given a DI... this is my biggest fear!

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Don't worry about it, most DI's are very good at their job and will make you feel comfortable and teach you everything you need to know to become a competent driver. Your learning however never ends, some might say it actually starts when you go out there on your own after passing out.

The problem I think is historical because previously a Driver would just make it known they want to be an Instructor and pretty much got promoted after a basic tick box exercise interview. Some of these may have been motivated by the extra money or cushy release days etc and have no interest in actual instructing/coaching. Thankfully it is slowly changing, a potential Instructor at my TOC won't even make it to interview now unless the managers think you have the right experience/driving record and qualities required. The interview is far more thorough and has lots of competency based questions. You then have to go through a proper Instructors course and cover non-technical skills and other potential trainee/instructor relationship problems and best ways to deal with them so as to avoid a hostile cab environment.

As with all things on the railway, it takes a while for the new breed to come through whilst the older ones retire. I'm not in anyway saying all older DIs are crap, quite the contrary as most them have far more varied experience than any of us newbies will have. Its just that some of them slipped through to a DIs role when they just don't have the people skills required.