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Storm Ophelia affects Blackfriars ticket barriers

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AnkleBoots

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Today the entry barriers at Blackfriars (south of river) were not accepting contactless/Oyster, just bringing up an error 21 - card used already. This happened to everyone for a period, not just me. The barrier person was happy to usher everyone through the wide gate.

At the end of my journey at St Pancras, I argued (politely) my way out of the barriers without having to touch out, as I didn't want to be penalised by TfL for not touching in.

How would an on-train RPI have dealt with this, either for contactless or Oyster, as I guess the RPI would be able to see that the passenger had not touched in. Is this a strict liability offence?

Should the barrier person at Blackfriars have insisted that everyone wait for it to be resolved, or walk round to the north side to touch in?
 
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sheff1

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Is this a strict liability offence?

No. You were given permission to travel by an "authorised person".


Should the barrier person at Blackfriars have insisted that everyone wait for it to be resolved, or walk round to the north side to touch in?

No. Passengers should not be avoidably delayed by a failure of railway equipment.
 

MikeWh

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Today the entry barriers at Blackfriars (south of river) were not accepting contactless/Oyster, just bringing up an error 21 - card used already. This happened to everyone for a period, not just me. The barrier person was happy to usher everyone through the wide gate.

At the end of my journey at St Pancras, I argued (politely) my way out of the barriers without having to touch out, as I didn't want to be penalised by TfL for not touching in.
You were lucky. I'm sure that the error at Blackfriars would be known about so there is every chance that an automatic adjustment might have been made, or the helpdesk would have arranged a refund. You got away with a free ride.
How would an on-train RPI have dealt with this, either for contactless or Oyster, as I guess the RPI would be able to see that the passenger had not touched in. Is this a strict liability offence?
Contactless would be fine, your card was valid for travel, but you'd definitely have needed to touch out or you'd have no chance of overturning the revenue fare which would have been generated. Oyster may have resulted in a discussion, but mentioning barrier problems should have been the end of it. I'd imagine that RPIs will have been messaged about the issue anyway.
Should the barrier person at Blackfriars have insisted that everyone wait for it to be resolved, or walk round to the north side to touch in?
That's a long walk!!!!
 

AnkleBoots

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You were lucky. I'm sure that the error at Blackfriars would be known about so there is every chance that an automatic adjustment might have been made, or the helpdesk would have arranged a refund. You got away with a free ride.
Thank you. Actually I otherwise met the daily cap, so no-one gained or lost out!
 

AnkleBoots

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I'd imagine that RPIs will have been messaged about the issue anyway.
How does that work? Some kind of automatic text generated when the barrier person calls for an engineer? Do the RPIs regularly read their messages? It would be nice to think that they would know in advance of first hearing about it from a passenger to avoid the "that's a likely story" smirk.
 

PeterC

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On an occasion when a reader failure meant that I was unable to touch out at a station a refund turned up a few days later without my asking.
 

talldave

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I'm more intrigued to know how the storm affected the barriers?
 
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Antman

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Today the entry barriers at Blackfriars (south of river) were not accepting contactless/Oyster, just bringing up an error 21 - card used already. This happened to everyone for a period, not just me. The barrier person was happy to usher everyone through the wide gate.

At the end of my journey at St Pancras, I argued (politely) my way out of the barriers without having to touch out, as I didn't want to be penalised by TfL for not touching in.

How would an on-train RPI have dealt with this, either for contactless or Oyster, as I guess the RPI would be able to see that the passenger had not touched in. Is this a strict liability offence?

Should the barrier person at Blackfriars have insisted that everyone wait for it to be resolved, or walk round to the north side to touch in?

The normal advice seems to be "any problems tell them to ring us" Blackfriars in this case.
 

jon0844

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How does that work? Some kind of automatic text generated when the barrier person calls for an engineer? Do the RPIs regularly read their messages? It would be nice to think that they would know in advance of first hearing about it from a passenger to avoid the "that's a likely story" smirk.

Most stations (and gatelines) have screens where staff can check for messages from control about TVM issues, ticket office closures, gateline problems etc. I don't know if the gates report issues automatically, but staff can report a problem themselves.

Or staff get the alerts on their mobile/iPad. Whether they read them is another story, but in the event of any appeal I would hope such logs are checked, and if there's any reported issue those penalty fares can be easily cancelled on appeal, and anything more serious can be dropped before being followed up.
 

tsr

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Between the parallel lines
Ticket barriers don't generate information which is then automatically visible on internal emails / TyrellCheck [internal software] etc. Therefore a member of staff has to report it. Sometimes this will just be to locally affected stations (eg. a phone call saying "hello St Pancras, three passengers will be arriving without validated Oysters or any tickets"), and sometimes it may be reported to Control and then broadcast by emails and so on.

If you have to argue your way out of the barriers, it's unlikely all staff have got the message. A plausible story about a regular fault may be enough to let you through, but it's not worth relying on. As above, you should make an incomplete journey and then deal with it later - check if it has been completed automatically, and if not, use the online TfL account handling to log an enquiry, or call the number which is printed on the back of every Oyster card. The time penalty will likely be no worse than if you'd been making a journey where you'd needed to buy a paper ticket at a ticket office or TVM. Most of the online Oyster / contactless tools are quite reasonable in terms of ease of use - as they should be, given the volume of people who use them, and the work accordingly put into the software.

As for revenue staff (or Passenger Hosts, as Thameslink now call them) - they should be approximately aware of revenue equipment issues, via their company-issue phones, but may need to check them if they haven't seen a message but need to verify it. The same applies to gateline staff (whom you probably encountered - to be fair, they would be less likely to detain you until they had proven that something is actually out of order), and it's worth pointing out that outside of the busiest mainline stations, the screens mounted by ticket barriers are usually simply for controlling the gates themselves, and not actually accompanied by any display which shows customer service information. The phone may be in the pocket, but it would be silly to expect it to be practical to constantly be staring at it, waiting for random emails about TVMs and ticket barriers to come through. So staff may need to check it specially - and it may be down to their perception of the passenger as to whether or not they think that necessary.

If a member of revenue staff did check tickets at any point, then when it comes to checking Oyster, the handheld readers will flag up that you have not touched in, even if you have reached your cap for the day (credit levels and precise deductions are not shown on the readers currently used). They also do not know about local stations which might have problems, as the system is not quite that clever yet. So you would likely be asked about your journey and at best you would be delayed whilst the revenue staff checked with your origin station to see if your story was correct; at worst, you might be issued a Penalty Fare and have to sort out the journey problems later - not ideal at all, but I'm not discounting it could happen if no report of the issues had yet been transmitted. Obviously this element would not be your fault. The really tricky bit would be if you were seen to be trying to exit a station without touching out, and it was subsequently discovered that you had not touched in either. This would mean you were effectively trying to get away with no record of your journey being made, and regardless of whether the origin station had been having problems with their equipment, you could be issued a Penalty Fare or reported for prosecution. Being capped for the day on Oyster/contactless would make little difference, because this is an arrangement which does not override the need to get a valid ticket at the first opportunity. A capped Oyster or contactless card is not a valid ticket by itself.

As for contactless, your journey will be started, and a maximum fare potentially charged, if you are inspected on one of the handheld readers, having not touched in. This is a measure to counter misuse, to ensure that if your ticket is checked, it isn't cheaper to just have a contactless card which is tapped on a reader every so often during a ticket check. Because these readers can only tell whether or not a card is authorised for use, a card which is only used once or twice without valid touch ins / touch outs will still pass the authorisation test, but still needs to be charged in absence of the back office system actually knowing where it was used.

Should you then touch out with your contactless card, there will be a reference point for where your journey finished, so you should be able to later reconcile the start and finish points of your journey by use of the online tools or the phone system. If, however, you do not touch in or out, having been inspected by a handheld reader on the train (or at a station) your card will be marked as having been misused, and the maximum fare charged. TfL might refund the difference between the maximum fare and what you should've paid, but so far as I have been informed, this is not guaranteed. In addition, you would need to make sure the misuse is removed from the card's history, as too many incomplete journeys on contactless will result in the card no longer being authorised for travel.
 

AnkleBoots

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Thank you for the detailed response. It is clear that if I am ever in the situation of not having touched in on Oyster, it is much better to present any contactless card to an RPI, than the Oyster.
 

Darandio

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While you are here though, do you fancy elaborating on the thread title? I'm confused. :s
 

MikeWh

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Thank you for the detailed response. It is clear that if I am ever in the situation of not having touched in on Oyster, it is much better to present any contactless card to an RPI, than the Oyster.
It might be. Of course if there is a good reason for not having touched in and you've already built up a part or all of the daily cap then it's probably better to use the correct card. Also, the RPI check on a contactless card will remain unless there was a good reason, and if you accumulate 3 of them then that card is blocked.
 

AnkleBoots

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It might be. Of course if there is a good reason for not having touched in and you've already built up a part or all of the daily cap then it's probably better to use the correct card. Also, the RPI check on a contactless card will remain unless there was a good reason, and if you accumulate 3 of them then that card is blocked.
Thank you for pointing this out.
 

AnkleBoots

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While you are here though, do you fancy elaborating on the thread title? I'm confused. :s
Just speculation about the barriers throwing up strange error messages. London wasn't particularly stormy at that point but the sky had been a very strange colour.
 
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