Son was detained by BTP when trying to pay his fare, while fare evaders are let off

Gareth Marston · 30 Aug 2017

falcon said:
Therin lies the whole issue with ticket checking and revenue protection on the railways in it's entirety. Utterly incompetent staff with inadiquate trainging AND testing.

Under BR revenue protection staff where paid high rate of pay to attract the correct people for the job and given a two week training course to learn the bye laws and rules and regulations regarding ticketing on the railways.Consitant across the entire network.

Now we have a situation where agency staff are used on minimum wage some of whom where working through the agency in a wearhouse or factory the week before they started checking tickets.

Also the Attitued test should not be an issue. A good RPI will resist his own feelings about an individual and how he is being spoken to and will stick to the facts and legal reqirements of the situation whilst keeping a realistic approach to the complications of the ticketing situation on the railways.

Someone from an agency that is working through an agency for a reason is highly unlikely to do that.

It is not realised by managemnet that revenue protection on the railways IS a very skilled job and requires bright,intelligent people who should be tested and passed out before thay are allowed to take up the job.

You have no way of of proving this was the case here apart from the OP's story which as I and several others have pointed out is clearly not the whole story due to various disconnects in description of events versus infrastructure of ticket purchasing facilities / standard procedure when staff call for BTP assistance etc.

Short of cctv/body cam evidence from somewhere we may never know what the whole truth is here.

Looking at the OP's post, Northern's Revenue Protection policy and where the OPs son travelled to Piccadily from its entirely reasonable for the Revenue staff to take an interest in someone who has arrived ticketless potentially past 5 or 6 opportunities to buy. Its what happened next with his interaction with staff is the key. As I posted before how did he go from "please can i have a ticket" to "being arrested". I'm 100% certain its not because staff "felt like it" and BTP thought "oh go on then were not doing anything else"

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island · 31 Aug 2017

There are too many coincidences here. Does the OPs son have any of the following:

Evidence that the booking office at Atherton was closed
Evidence that the TVM there was not in full working order you do not need correct change for a TVM
A reason for not buying the ticket at Salford Crescent, which has a full time ticket office, bearing in mind the normal wait there would be 23 minutes
An account of what precisely was said and done on arrival at Manchester Piccadilly

The preponderance of the evidence leads me to the conclusion, based on the information at hand, that it is most likely that the OPs son had no intention of buying a ticket until challenged by a member of staff or forced to do so by a revenue block, and then failed the attitude test resulting in things escalating.

pemma · 31 Aug 2017

island said:
There are too many coincidences here. Does the OP’s son have any of the following:

Evidence that the booking office at Atherton was closed

Evidence that the TVM there was not in full working order – you do not need “correct change” for a TVM

A reason for not buying the ticket at Salford Crescent, which has a full time ticket office, bearing in mind the normal wait there would be 23 minutes

An account of what precisely was said and done on arrival at Manchester Piccadilly

Bottom two I agree with. First two I don't.

As I've already explained the Northern Parkeon cash + card TVMs do show messages saying 'Correct Change Only' and it's not uncommon to see that message being displayed. The TVM showing that message doesn't mean it was not in working order, it could be as simple as the team emptying the money from TVMs could have emptied just emptied the only TVM.

I've also arrived at Northern ticket offices a few minutes before an arrival to find no staff member around on more than one occasion. It seems some Northern staff choose to go off and do something else if there's no queue for tickets even if there's a departure in the next few minutes. It appears the woman staffing the ticket office arrived back at the last minute and told the passenger he could buy on board. However, by the time he arrived at Piccadilly it's not just a question of whether the ticket office staff said he could buy on board, it's also whether there was an opportunity to buy from the guard.

However, given a service from Salford Crescent has to arrive at Piccadilly platform 13 and the Buxton trains usually depart from platform 10, normally you wouldn't walk past an RPI to get from 13 to 10 but there is a ticket selling facility at the far end of the platform 11 (adjacent to platform 10.) So I'd suspect the passenger presented himself to buy a ticket and was told he couldn't, opposed to the passenger being stopped by a RPI while walking between the train he alighted and the one he was intending to board. However, some clarification is needed.

Clip · 31 Aug 2017

jcollins said:
Bottom two I agree with. First two I don't.

As I've already explained the Northern Parkeon cash + card TVMs do show messages saying 'Correct Change Only' and it's not uncommon to see that message being displayed. The TVM showing that message doesn't mean it was not in working order, it could be as simple as the team emptying the money from TVMs could have emptied just emptied the only TVM.

.

When they empty a tvm they do not empty the change tubes only what falls into the cash box.

RJ · 31 Aug 2017

najaB said:
True. However it is possible to express disagreement in a manner that doesn't necessitate an intervention by BTP.

People have different approaches to handling matters. Some ticket inspectors will be minded to call the BTP over a ticketing matter - and make up some lies about aggression or whatever to increase the likelihood of the BTP attending.

It happened to me a few times when I was younger - and every single time, I turned it around so the BTP started questioning the ticket inspector, which would cause the inspector to lose their temper and fail the attitude test with the BTP. With railway staff that waste their time then abuse them, it's a small wonder the BTP won't turn up in many cases.

Gareth Marston · 31 Aug 2017

RJ said:
People have different approaches to handling matters. Some ticket inspectors will be minded to call the BTP over a ticketing matter - and make up some lies about aggression or whatever to increase the likelihood of the BTP attending.

It happened to me a few times when I was younger - and every single time, I turned it around so the BTP started questioning the ticket inspector, which would cause the inspector to lose their temper and fail the attitude test with the BTP. With railway staff that waste their time then abuse them, it's a small wonder the BTP won't turn up in many cases.

You would appear to have been involved more times with BTP over ticketing irregularities/disputes than we've had threads on this forum on the subject. This in itself is very instructive

Gareth Marston · 31 Aug 2017

jcollins said:
Bottom two I agree with. First two I don't.

As I've already explained the Northern Parkeon cash + card TVMs do show messages saying 'Correct Change Only' and it's not uncommon to see that message being displayed. The TVM showing that message doesn't mean it was not in working order, it could be as simple as the team emptying the money from TVMs could have emptied just emptied the only TVM.

I've also arrived at Northern ticket offices a few minutes before an arrival to find no staff member around on more than one occasion. It seems some Northern staff choose to go off and do something else if there's no queue for tickets even if there's a departure in the next few minutes. It appears the woman staffing the ticket office arrived back at the last minute and told the passenger he could buy on board. However, by the time he arrived at Piccadilly it's not just a question of whether the ticket office staff said he could buy on board, it's also whether there was an opportunity to buy from the guard.

However, given a service from Salford Crescent has to arrive at Piccadilly platform 13 and the Buxton trains usually depart from platform 10, normally you wouldn't walk past an RPI to get from 13 to 10 but there is a ticket selling facility at the far end of the platform 11 (adjacent to platform 10.) So I'd suspect the passenger presented himself to buy a ticket and was told he couldn't, opposed to the passenger being stopped by a RPI while walking between the train he alighted and the one he was intending to board. However, some clarification is needed.

Thanks for clarifying the situation with Northern TVM's.

Regarding ticket office staff going off you have to bear in mind what you see in front of you is not the story of whats happened in the previous hour or so. Its not uncommon here in Newtown to have people at the counter continuously for over an hour, sometimes you just have to have a punt and take the break when the opportunity arises. One time when the break in customers finally appeared i put the kettle on and quickly went to the toilet and was about to make tea when a lady appeared. She was very pleasant but said "its always quite here do they let you read a book"?

This week so far we've been open 22 hours and done 956 Issues. That's 43 an hour on average or one every 83 seconds.

pemma · 31 Aug 2017

Clip said:
When they empty a tvm they do not empty the change tubes only what falls into the cash box.

In that case maybe the change tubes don't hold much change in these TVMs or perhaps certain types of coins are rarely inserted. Certainly it's not rare to see a Northern one saying Correct Change Only unless it's a card only machine.

sheff1 · 31 Aug 2017

jcollins said:
Certainly it's not rare to see a Northern one saying Correct Change Only unless it's a card only machine.

Indeed, but for reasons best known to themselves some on here seem unable to accept that fact.

philthetube · 1 Sep 2017

RJ said:
People have different approaches to handling matters. Some ticket inspectors will be minded to call the BTP over a ticketing matter - and make up some lies about aggression or whatever to increase the likelihood of the BTP attending.

It happened to me a few times when I was younger - and every single time, I turned it around so the BTP started questioning the ticket inspector, which would cause the inspector to lose their temper and fail the attitude test with the BTP. With railway staff that waste their time then abuse them, it's a small wonder the BTP won't turn up in many cases.

And inspectors who do this regularly still have jobs?

And the BTP still act in cases where they are frequently called by certain individuals.

Not in the world most of us work in.

pemma · 1 Sep 2017

Gareth Marston said:
Regarding ticket office staff going off you have to bear in mind what you see in front of you is not the story of whats happened in the previous hour or so. Its not uncommon here in Newtown to have people at the counter continuously for over an hour, sometimes you just have to have a punt and take the break when the opportunity arises. One time when the break in customers finally appeared i put the kettle on and quickly went to the toilet and was about to make tea when a lady appeared. She was very pleasant but said "its always quite here do they let you read a book"?

This week so far we've been open 22 hours and done 956 Issues. That's 43 an hour on average or one every 83 seconds.

Surprised it's that high at Newton (I'm presuming you mean Newton, Powys) as 956 issues for the week so far would be roughly equivalent to 75,000 issues per year. Most recent ORR figures have 147,938 for Newton, so unless there were a lot of singles sold and very few season tickets, that would suggest an unusually busy week especially considering the ticket office isn't staffed from first to last train every day.

However, I do accept ticket office do enquiries and railcard issues which don't end in a ticket sale and at my station it's common for business travellers to buy tickets to start a journey at a different station on a different day.

Clip · 1 Sep 2017

jcollins said:
Surprised it's that high at Newton (I'm presuming you mean Newton, Powys) as 956 issues for the week so far would be roughly equivalent to 75,000 issues per year. Most recent ORR figures have 147,938 for Newton, so unless there were a lot of singles sold and very few season tickets, that would suggest an unusually busy week especially considering the ticket office isn't staffed from first to last train every day.

However, I do accept ticket office do enquiries and railcard issues which don't end in a ticket sale and at my station it's common for business travellers to buy tickets to start a journey at a different station on a different day.

To be fair it is the last week of the school holidays so day trips aplenty I would've though

Gareth Marston · 1 Sep 2017

jcollins said:
Surprised it's that high at Newton (I'm presuming you mean Newton, Powys) as 956 issues for the week so far would be roughly equivalent to 75,000 issues per year. Most recent ORR figures have 147,938 for Newton, so unless there were a lot of singles sold and very few season tickets, that would suggest an unusually busy week especially considering the ticket office isn't staffed from first to last train every day.

However, I do accept ticket office do enquiries and railcard issues which don't end in a ticket sale and at my station it's common for business travellers to buy tickets to start a journey at a different station on a different day.

Issues include Railcards, seat reservations, non issues, TOD Debit and credits you can easily knock 20% off the total issues as not actual tickets being sold for travel, throw in small amount of split tickets as well etc. However you still have to be at the machine to do them!

We sell stuff for nearby stations as well mainly Caersws, but Welshpool also and the odd few from Craven Arms. Sold 6 from Shrewsbury for an early Sunday morning trip to London recently and a Staines to Newtown single. We've got a guy who buys his Widney Manor to The Hawthorns CDR on match days from us and a regular once a month Wick to Inverness on AP's. So its by no means all tickets originating here.

Period 5 this year we averaged 271 issues a day Period 10 last year (Dec/Feb) its was down to 170 a day. So were in a busy phase at moment.

nanstallon · 8 Sep 2017

6Gman said:
I wonder if there was an Attitude Test issue here?

I find that 'test' incredibly arrogant. You fail unless you are totally grovelling and sycophantic. Why shouldn't people argue their case, even in forthright terms (provided they don't swear)?

I am assuming that nobody was physically grabbed.

AlterEgo · 8 Sep 2017

nanstallon said:
I find that 'test' incredibly arrogant. You fail unless you are totally grovelling and sycophantic. Why shouldn't people argue their case, even in forthright terms (provided they don't swear)?

I am assuming that nobody was physically grabbed.

In this case we are talking about people who have already done something wrong, and there is then a fork in the path. If someone cooperates then they will be dealt with one way; if they are not, or otherwise obstructive or abusive, then they will be dealt with in another way. That's how most policing happens with a greater or lesser distance between the two forks.

6Gman · 8 Sep 2017

nanstallon said:
I find that 'test' incredibly arrogant. You fail unless you are totally grovelling and sycophantic. Why shouldn't people argue their case, even in forthright terms (provided they don't swear)?

I am assuming that nobody was physically grabbed.

"I grabbed one of these inspectors" is a direct quote from the OP.

Now, I suspect he was using "grabbed" figuratively but customer-facing staff surely have to be able to adjust their response according to the behaviour of the customer?

Fare-Cop · 17 Sep 2017

6Gman said:
"I grabbed one of these inspectors" is a direct quote from the OP.

Now, I suspect he was using "grabbed" figuratively but customer-facing staff surely have to be able to adjust their response according to the behaviour of the customer?

Absolutely correct, we should all address and deal with others in the way that we would hope to be addressed ourselves.

National Railway Byelaw 6 (2005) makes decent language and acceptable behaviour it a strict liability requirement for ALL and in my experience, Magistrates are only too happy to support that.

BurtonM · 26 Sep 2017

If the passenger tried to buy a ticket at the Crescent they'd only have had the same issue as it's gated and staffed by Northern uniformed bods.

185143 · 26 Sep 2017

I also note that a return from Atherton to Buxton is more expensive than a GM wayfarer, with the same restrictions. The TVMs do not sell these tickets.

12guard4 · 19 Oct 2017

I think the OP is a frustrated parent who's kid has got in trouble and wants to shift the blame. There's an awful lot missing here, very importantly though how he ended up being arrested which is almost unheard of in a situation where someone is trying to buy a ticket.

gray1404 · 19 Oct 2017

It seems that the OP has not come back for further support or to provided additional information. I am wondering if it might be time to close this post.

shredder1 · 20 Oct 2017

gray1404 said:
It seems that the OP has not come back for further support or to provided additional information. I am wondering if it might be time to close this post.

Yes indeed, I wonder if he was detained and not actually arrested?

142blue · 20 Oct 2017

I think it might, suffice to say BTP would not attend without a reason and also that the theme seems to be why should my son pay when others brazenly get away with it.

najaB · 20 Oct 2017

shredder1 said:
Yes indeed, I wonder if he was detained and not actually arrested?

A question which has remained unanswered since post #4...

shredder1 · 24 Oct 2017

najaB said:
A question which has remained unanswered since post #4...

Yes indeed, thanks najaB

Son was detained by BTP when trying to pay his fare, while fare evaders are let off

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