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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

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Peter Mugridge

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Reading some of the posts above...

Am I the only person on here who sits normally in the window seats on the 700s and doesn't have a problem with the ducting?
 
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hassaanhc

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Reading some of the posts above...

Am I the only person on here who sits normally in the window seats on the 700s and doesn't have a problem with the ducting?
I feel the same way. They have the same amount of legroom as a 360 or 450, and I can't wait until the 707s appear on more Hounslow services.
 

Bald Rick

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My first trip in the peak since the all 700s on the route. Must admit with the dwell times I experienced today I can’t see how the full timetable will work. (But don’t know how long the dwell in the core will be.)

Services were all running late (but only by about 5 mins) but because of passengers getting on / off the delay increased by about 2 mins from St Pancras to Blackfriars.

There was a problem tonight with one not changing over properly. Pretty much every train on clear signals through the core made back time after the original delay. A couple of trains were delayed as they were already late, and put behind an on time one. Unfortunately the on time one has 14 mins in the core, the others 12. As mentioned a few pages ago, the timetable has longer dwells than strictly necessary for the new trains, so whilst the on time train waited time, the trains behind couldn't make up time, and got 2 minutes later.

I'll bet myself another glass of wine that you were on a train from St Pancras between 1830 and 1840.

The new timetable reduces the core transit to 8-10 minutes, which will be easy. indeed I was caught out yet again this week by a train showing 7 minutes late coming north through the elephant, and on time at St Pancras.
 

radamfi

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There was a problem tonight with one not changing over properly. Pretty much every train on clear signals through the core made back time after the original delay. A couple of trains were delayed as they were already late, and put behind an on time one. As mentioned a few pages ago, the timetable has longer dwells than strictly necessary for the new trains, so whilst the on time train waited time, the trains behind couldn't make up time.

I'll bet myself another glass of wine that you were on a train from St Pancras between 1830 and 1840.

I was on the 1813 from Farringdon to Brighton. It was only 5 minutes late on leaving Farringdon but by East Croydon it was over 10 late because it got stuck behind a stopping train to Tulse Hill and by Gatwick it was 13 late.
 

Bald Rick

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I was on the 1813 from Farringdon to Brighton. It was only 5 minutes late on leaving Farringdon but by East Croydon it was over 10 late because it got stuck behind a stopping train to Tulse Hill and by Gatwick it was 13 late.

Indeed. Stuck behind a stopper, nothing to do with core dwell times.
 

radamfi

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Are you for real?! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I was very much been sitting right next to the window on my way home earlier, likewise the vast majority of my journeys on them.

They have ducting like 700s. Why not use 377-style ducting?
 

jon0844

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Services were all running late (but only by about 5 mins) but because of passengers getting on / off the delay increased by about 2 mins from St Pancras to Blackfriars.

There's usually quite a bit of recovery time through the core, with people who aren't aware often thinking something has gone wrong when the train simply isn't moving because it has 2-3 minutes to wait.

When the dwell targets reduce to 42 seconds, it's going to become rather 'interesting'.

The common argument is that it's fine on the tube, but for the most part if you look at the high capacity operation on the Victoria Line, people waiting get the next train as they all go to the same place and stop at all stations. Nice and simple.
 

Bald Rick

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There's usually quite a bit of recovery time through the core, with people who aren't aware often thinking something has gone wrong when the train simply isn't moving because it has 2-3 minutes to wait.

When the dwell targets reduce to 42 seconds, it's going to become rather 'interesting'.

The common argument is that it's fine on the tube, but for the most part if you look at the high capacity operation on the Victoria Line, people waiting get the next train as they all go to the same place and stop at all stations. Nice and simple.

The dwells will be timed at 1 minute, which they do routinely now with ease, even at St Pancras.

Tube dwells are much shorter - Jubilee line is 27 seconds in the peak IIRC, and the Vic can't be much different with 100 second service intervals.
 

bramling

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444s and 2+2 350s have window seats.

Hmm, I’ve always wondered why the 450s and 350/2s are so unpopular. I’ve never personally found them too bad, but I can’t remember having been on one with all seats taken.

As others say, move the seats out just a bit and the problem goes away. Personally I’d also get rid of the cantilevered seating - another factor that messes up legroom.
 

bramling

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I think I'm lucky too. I got my second delay on the 700s last week; approx 15 minutes with a changeover that went wrong. Two delays in a year of using them is rather better than my 319 or 377 record. But then I'm one of the two lucky TL passengers.



Having seen the cost for refitting wifi and tables, it is a waste of cash, it really is. The people asking for them to be refitted was a lot of noise from user groups and, yes, forums like these. There wasn't much from regular passengers and commuters - there never is. Current TL commuters have never had wifi, and only had tables of any sort on a small proportion of services for the last 7-8 years.

New timetables definitely do have a bathtub curve, albeit only one end of the bath tub. It is a well recognised issue amongst those who have implemented major timetable changes across a wide area. (I've done 5, across 4 different TOCs, and they all had it). Drivers, signallers, station staff, control staff - all take time to get fully comfortable with new operating patterns, new regulating issues, new rosters, new stopping patterns, etc. That is why so much effort is put into preparation beforehand. Even then, a relatively small incident can cause much higher delay than in the old timetable. It normally takes 6-8 weeks for it all to work out.

Sorry can’t agree with this. Of course things will settle down as signallers and the like get used to things. But my point is that a flawed timetable will never work without producing late running, constant interventions required to get things back on time, and ultimately poor performance figures. There are plenty of examples where it hasn’t been able to be got to work, both on LU and NR. Operation Princess is one example, plenty on LU too which never settled down.
 

bramling

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The dwells will be timed at 1 minute, which they do routinely now with ease, even at St Pancras.

Tube dwells are much shorter - Jubilee line is 27 seconds in the peak IIRC, and the Vic can't be much different with 100 second service intervals.

Try getting away from some busy LU platforms in 27 secs. Part of the pre conditions for getting the Vic Line up to 36tph was getting rid of the Seven Sisters reversers - part of the reasoning for this was to eliminate the issue of people remaining on the platform waiting for a different destination.
 

ComUtoR

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I left Blackfriars this evening +15 and that was due to a failed unit (not mine) It may well be the case that the service can catch itself up on clear signals through the core and dwell times are improved and can assist with delay catchup but with the initial problem caused by an issue in the core you can see why some people are apprehensive with any increase in the service. How many services were delayed because of a single unit problem ? I stood on Blackfriars station listening to the passengers and watching the crowding slowly build up. It is never a pleasant experience.
 

bramling

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I left Blackfriars this evening +15 and that was due to a failed unit (not mine) It may well be the case that the service can catch itself up on clear signals through the core and dwell times are improved and can assist with delay catchup but with the initial problem caused by an issue in the core you can see why some people are apprehensive with any increase in the service. How many services were delayed because of a single unit problem ? I stood on Blackfriars station listening to the passengers and watching the crowding slowly build up. It is never a pleasant experience.

I can, just about, see the core working on the basis that hopefully things won’t go wrong on that section that often - though when they do it will be a shambles. There have been plenty of core disasters over the years though.

What will certainly be an issue is late running from elsewhere. A southbound Thameslink service losing minutes through somewhere like Welwyn (two trains on one track doesn’t work, no matter what the regulating policy is), and the whole timetable then falling apart thanks to things being off book. Meanwhile, as you say, the core platforms fill up, and people won’t stand back to await their late running train if it means they may not get first pickings at the seats - especially on a train where half the seats are diabolically uncomfortable thanks to the ducting.

One wonders how much of southern England could be screwed up by Thameslink before it becomes politically untenable.
 

jon0844

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Talking before about platform indications of train loadings, I see London Overground is trialling platform screens and app access to live loading data on 378s, which don't have onboard indicators.
 

bramling

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Talking before about platform indications of train loadings, I see London Overground is trialling platform screens and app access to live loading data on 378s, which don't have onboard indicators.

For most LO trains I’d imagine the loading data will be something like “full, full, full, full & full” - especially in the peaks!
 

Failed Unit

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My time loser was actually in the morning. It was heading to Sutton. Driver closed the doors or tried to. Asked over PA for passengers to stand clear and got away eventually. Railways can’t stop this happening. The person (people) holding the doors can’t be heading to Sutton as the train was already late so the would have missed it if they wanted it. Next train was shown as 2 minutes behind. But passenger action like that could soon ripple quickly. Notice the Gatwick ones can be slow at st Pancras with the baggage needing to get on / off but probably within current dwell.

Suspect things will get cosy in disruption. (They already do with Cambridge, Peterborough and others added to the list) KX is bad in times of trouble as well. Saying that personally I will be at Blackfriars, city or Farringdon so the demand will spread as many others will also be in my position.
 

radamfi

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The narrow platform at Farringdon seemed really overcrowded last night. It might have been considered dangerous.
 

sd0733

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I left Blackfriars this evening +15 and that was due to a failed unit (not mine).
Yes 700116 failed at Farringdon as I was stuck at City Thameslink just after it happened.
As the service recovered and the trapped trains came through even with large crowds dwell times werent more than 30 seconds for most trains
 

Silver Cobra

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Spotted 700124 heading southbound through Arlesey at around 1050 this morning. Interestingly, it was sandwiched within a freight train hauled by GBRf 66731. I've seen 700s being hauled by diesels before, but not within a freight train. I imagine this happens more often than I realise though.

Looks like it was running as part of this: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R01349/2017/10/20/advanced
 
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swt_passenger

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Spotted 700124 heading southbound through Arlesey at around 1050 this morning. Interestingly, it was sandwiched within a freight train hauled by GBRf 66731. I've seen 700s being hauled by diesels before, but not within a freight train.

I think what you are seeing is the normal combination of translator vehicles and brake force vehicles, used on initial delivery into the country. It's also the way 707s are formed on their delivery runs. It might be different if a fully commissioned set is moved, as there are some locos around that can directly couple to the unit, and operate the hauled train's brakes.
 
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jon0844

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For most LO trains I’d imagine the loading data will be something like “full, full, full, full & full” - especially in the peaks!

Geoff from All The Stations did a video but you're right, I can't imagine it giving any info people don't already know!

Hopefully TL trains will be able to relay info reliably in the future though, which means the end of service updates 3-4 hours out of date because it wasn't connecting. One imagines Siemens using O2 for its data connection!
 

tsr

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If the current timetable has generous dwell times which have the side effect of letting a train make up (say) 7 or 8 minutes in the Core, which I too have observed, how will this be maintained when the generosity of the dwell times is reduced and the frequency of the service is increased?

What I mean is this: if there are 7 spare minutes now, a Class 700 may make up a delay in all of those minutes in the current timetable. This is very good.

When the TL Core opens through to London Bridge at the start of 2018, my understanding is that timings for BML trains, at least, will still have some generosity due to still allowing time for the longer run via Herne Hill.

However, when it comes to mitigating disruption in the "final" TL timetable, if I am not much mistaken those 7-10 minutes (through the core or down to, say, East Croydon) will not exist, on paper or in reality.

Are speedy doors, big vestibules and ATO really enough to make up for this? I guess we'll just have to see!

One of the big issues which Southern currently has is that many stock diagrams lead to the same train working (for example) two morning peak services. This means that if one busy peak-time run is disrupted, the next return trip of this train will also be subject to delays. Thameslink have obviously got much longer routes all the way through London (whichever direction, of course) and out the other side, even when considering peak workings which turn around somewhere like Elephant & Castle in the current state of affairs.

The most reliable stock workings are usually on services which have long dwell times or very generous allowances. Turnaround times of suburban trains inevitably get eaten into (and when this happens, of course, it can also cause knock-on congestion at termini) so it is no use relying on those, as a great deal of experience has shown me. Stepping up stock is a luxury which can't always be afforded, although uniform rolling stock can help.

I can think of a number of outer-suburban or Sussex locations where a train may have a dwell time of 5-10 minutes towards the tail end of the morning peak, perhaps to wait in a platform or at a red signal for other trains to use a station/junction ahead. This also happens to add tremendous resilience - it does not always completely absolve a delayed train of the blame of causing any more disruption, but it can reduce the delay enough that it does not impact on even half as many services.

If TL services do not have this, they may not delay the next round of morning peak services, but there's a very real risk that mid-morning trains will be disrupted - and if you skip the stops on those, or cancel them, the off-peak frequency may be low enough that passengers would be at a significant disadvantage in having to wait for the next train. If no remedial action is done, you then sprawl over the whole of the "shoulder peak" around mid-afternoon, and then... well, you get the idea.
 

bramling

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If the current timetable has generous dwell times which have the side effect of letting a train make up (say) 7 or 8 minutes in the Core, which I too have observed, how will this be maintained when the generosity of the dwell times is reduced and the frequency of the service is increased?

What I mean is this: if there are 7 spare minutes now, a Class 700 may make up a delay in all of those minutes in the current timetable. This is very good.

When the TL Core opens through to London Bridge at the start of 2018, my understanding is that timings for BML trains, at least, will still have some generosity due to still allowing time for the longer run via Herne Hill.

However, when it comes to mitigating disruption in the "final" TL timetable, if I am not much mistaken those 7-10 minutes (through the core or down to, say, East Croydon) will not exist, on paper or in reality.

Are speedy doors, big vestibules and ATO really enough to make up for this? I guess we'll just have to see!

One of the big issues which Southern currently has is that many stock diagrams lead to the same train working (for example) two morning peak services. This means that if one busy peak-time run is disrupted, the next return trip of this train will also be subject to delays. Thameslink have obviously got much longer routes all the way through London (whichever direction, of course) and out the other side, even when considering peak workings which turn around somewhere like Elephant & Castle in the current state of affairs.

The most reliable stock workings are usually on services which have long dwell times or very generous allowances. Turnaround times of suburban trains inevitably get eaten into (and when this happens, of course, it can also cause knock-on congestion at termini) so it is no use relying on those, as a great deal of experience has shown me. Stepping up stock is a luxury which can't always be afforded, although uniform rolling stock can help.

I can think of a number of outer-suburban or Sussex locations where a train may have a dwell time of 5-10 minutes towards the tail end of the morning peak, perhaps to wait in a platform or at a red signal for other trains to use a station/junction ahead. This also happens to add tremendous resilience - it does not always completely absolve a delayed train of the blame of causing any more disruption, but it can reduce the delay enough that it does not impact on even half as many services.

If TL services do not have this, they may not delay the next round of morning peak services, but there's a very real risk that mid-morning trains will be disrupted - and if you skip the stops on those, or cancel them, the off-peak frequency may be low enough that passengers would be at a significant disadvantage in having to wait for the next train. If no remedial action is done, you then sprawl over the whole of the "shoulder peak" around mid-afternoon, and then... well, you get the idea.

Sums things up perfectly, and this is my experience using Thameslink in the past. Turning up at King's Cross Thameslink in the mid-morning for what should have been 4tph fast to St Albans, yet waits of 30-40 minutes were not uncommon.
 

tsr

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Interestingly, I have just done a search for faults and failures involving power changeovers on GTR stock.

Within this working week (spanning from today back to Monday, which is when most commuters will experience Thameslink) I believe there have been at least 4 such incidents involving Class 700s in the Core. Other GTR routes do not have the same volume of changeovers, though there has been one incident involving an early morning 377 working a Milton Keynes service, which was cancelled and returned back to the depot.

Anecdotally only - I do not have access to the same level of data - I have not heard about any failures of London Overground stock doing power changeovers in this timeframe.
 

387star

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Why doesn't Milton become tl? A cross London service after all and a 700 welcome through Kensington. .. those trains are really busy

Unpopular idea with Norwood drivers I know !
 

tsr

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Why doesn't Milton become tl? A cross London service after all and a 700 welcome through Kensington. .. those trains are really busy

Unpopular idea with Norwood drivers I know !

It's not such a stupid idea. Reliability concerns aside, the 700s would be a decent upgrade compared to the lack of space and even more spartan facilities of the Tube trains and 378s which they'd parallel for the busiest part of the journey, and would have the acceleration to cope with the WCML. Purely in terms of passenger volumes, they'd also have a longer "core" section (roughly Watford Junction - Clapham Junction or Norbury) to justify their metro-style interior.

(Also, just a thought - if the route did not become DOO for GTR, and as there is no need for it to, Norwood drivers and Selhurst conductors could still work 700s as they do with other units now.)
 

AM9

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Interestingly, I have just done a search for faults and failures involving power changeovers on GTR stock.

Within this working week (spanning from today back to Monday, which is when most commuters will experience Thameslink) I believe there have been at least 4 such incidents involving Class 700s in the Core. Other GTR routes do not have the same volume of changeovers, though there has been one incident involving an early morning 377 working a Milton Keynes service, which was cancelled and returned back to the depot.

Anecdotally only - I do not have access to the same level of data - I have not heard about any failures of London Overground stock doing power changeovers in this timeframe.

So there are about nine times as many transitions from ac to dc (or vice versa) in the Thameslink core as there are on MK services over the West London Line. The incidence given for switchover failures on Electrostars that have been in service for over 3 years at least doesn't compare favourably with the class 700 failures on relatively new trains with an average age of about 6-9 months.
 
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